Fidel Castro Dead

[GranTurismo guy]

If you ever come across the body of a brutally beaten and battered child maybe you'll have a better understanding.

You mean I will let my emotions get the better of me and let them run my judgement.

As far as those celebrating the death of someone being as bad as the person who actually committed those crimes, that is a completely ridiculous statement to make. If you think that makes me as bad as the person who committed a crime like that, I'd say you're crazy.

I think you're taking my words a bit too literally.

 

[killerjimbag]

Here's a great article. Perhaps some should read it. He is a very well respected journalist,from a well respected Canadian Newspaper.
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/op....com&cmpid=rss1&click=sf_globe&service=mobile

 

[Parker]

You mean I will let my emotions get the better of me and let them run my judgement.


I think you're taking my words a bit too literally.

No, I mean exactly what I said. You're the one wrote cheering for his death makes us no better than him. I'm saying if you've ever seen a beaten child, you'll know that isn't the case at all and comparing the two is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with emotion and everything to do with the two actions.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I have. killerjimbag asked what good has come out of a communist country; I pointed out that their healthcare system is one of the best in the world.

Commie country, no free press, no access to any statistics concerning healthcare that aren't processed by the commies. So we have to rely on anecdotal evidence, from NPR and Al Jazeera no less, two sources I'm sure even you can trust:

http://michiganradio.org/post/msu-med-students-see-good-bad-and-ugly-cuban-health-care-system

"The Cubans went through a devastating economic collapse in the 1990s," says Reed. "And it played havoc with all the institutions, and you can see it today still in many of the hospitals and infrastructure, and also in the availability of some medications.

Officials don't usually talk about what many Americans would likely view as the dark side of the program: coercion. Pregnant women at high risk face intense pressure to move to special maternity wards, sometimes for months at a time, and if a woman balks, the police will come to her home to insist

Gierec Laput, a fourth-year student who intends to specialize in internal medicine, says there were no proper kits available for a catheter insertion; he had to re-use his gloves and do the procedure without using an alcohol swab on the patient. "At the E.R, I saw treatment of a trauma patient where aseptic technique was not followed," says Laput, "including hand washing. It's not ideally how we practice medicine."

Jack Swan says it appears that Cuban doctors seem to look at pain as a symptom that aids diagnosis, rather than a condition that requires treatment.

Swan observed a patient undergoing a painful procedure to scrub dead tissue off his arm, with no pain relief save a cloth in his mouth, and a patient with a long bone fracture who was not given morphine, which would be typical in the U.S.

The worst incident was a botched abortion of an eight-week old fetus. Kendra Kamp says the doctors used a speculum that was too small, resulting in extensive tissue damage to the patient.

Students also felt some cost-saving measures are counterproductive, like not doing routine blood screening of newborns.

Medical student Bo Pang says bluntly, "I'd much prefer going back to America for my care."

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/06/201265115527622647.html

By the time I moved to Cuba in 1997, there were serious shortages of medicine - from simple aspirin to more badly needed drugs.

Ironically, many medicines that cannot be found at a pharmacy are easily bought on the black market. Some doctors, nurses and cleaning staff smuggle the medicine out of the hospitals in a bid to make extra cash.

Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.

If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but emergency procedures can be ridiculously long.

Many Cubans complain that top-level government and Communist Party officials have access to VIP health treatment, while ordinary people must queue from dawn for a routine test, with no guarantee that the allotted numbers will not run out before it is their turn.

I saw many hospitals where there was often no running water, the toilets did not flush, and the risk of infections - by the hospital's own admission - was extremely high.

Sounds like paradise really...

 

[Joel]

Yeah I agree, "one of the best in the world" is really a stretch, but that article isn't really a rebuttal to the idea that it's generally of good quality. Cuban hospitals are not as nice as the ones in highly developed Western countries, but that's not really a reasonable comparison. I reckon Cuban hospitals compare pretty favourably to the hospitals in Haiti or Honduras, or the (non-tourist) hospitals in Jamaica/Dominican Republic, etc.


Anyway though I'll bow out of this thread so we can relitigate the Cold War without my pinko hippie-dippie commie sympathising ass ruining the fun.

 

[McLaren]

Yeah I agree, "one of the best in the world" is really a stretch, but that article isn't really a rebuttal to the idea that it's generally of good quality. Cuban hospitals are not as nice as the ones in highly developed Western countries, but that's not really a reasonable comparison. I reckon Cuban hospitals compare pretty favourably to the hospitals in Haiti or Honduras, or the (non-tourist) hospitals in Jamaica/Dominican Republic, etc.


Anyway though I'll bow out of this thread so we can relitigate the Cold War without my pinko hippie-dippie commie sympathising ass ruining the fun.

I don't know if that still makes it "favorable".

Compton isn't as bad as certain parts of Detroit/Chicago, but that doesn't make it a great area to be around in comparison.

 

[Imari]

It has nothing to do with emotion...

It has a lot to do with emotion. As humans, we are emotionally affected by the suffering of another human in a way that we are not by the suffering of a fish, or a fly, or a tree.

However rational you may be, the only reason you react at all to a beaten child is emotion.

Commie country, no free press, no access to any statistics concerning healthcare that aren't processed by the commies.

The moment you started calling them commies you lost all objectivity. Is this the 70's where the phrase "commie" is still used as a derogatory term?

One would think that by now we'd have accepted that countries can have whatever governmental structure they want, and we judge them for their actions.

 

[Rage Racer]

Are we talking about Castro or one of those wild North Korean leaders? Seem to be a repeating pattern among these kind of leaders.

Equalizing %countryname% to North Korea isn't smart. Yes it's a wide pattern. Not only Kim family fits it.
You know, sometimes I see people equializing my country to North Korea, too, and demonizing our president just like this. (Do I look like I live in totalitarian hell?)

What is Cuba, after all? Economically, it's an average Latin American country. There are some better ones, there are some worse. For a country under sanctions and embargo by US, it's doing fine. The Human Development Index is on the same level as Serbia's, and higher than the one of Turkey or Ukraine, for example.

In just 80 kilometers from Cuba, is Haiti. There never were any communists, just pure market economy. But despite of this, it's one of the poorest states in the world.

 

[FoRiZon]

Funny thing is that as soon as Fidel Castro's death is closer, he regain the ties back to US.

So Castro's family is slightly better than Kim's family, i suppose.

I find it shocking how many people are openly glorifying in the death of another human being.

Hell, on the scale of worldwide atrocities he's not even particularly far up the list of horrendous dictators. It's funny how media perception makes all the difference to people's reactions. Castro is a "bad guy", says the news, so we should all be happy that he's dead.

Sickening. It's days like this I'm sorry I'm part of the human race.

They wanted Castro's death to be like Muammar Gaddafi's. Pretty sadist if you ask me.

 

[McLaren]

Equalizing %countryname% to North Korea isn't smart. Yes it's a wide pattern. Not only Kim family fits it.

You could have a man like Castro running Finland like he did Cuba for 50 years and it wouldn't change your original post about the man; the country is irrelevant.

The way you described Castro is much in the same vain that the Kim family has been described. They were both unitary, socialist leaders, who had history of executing their people if they disobeyed, both having a strong stance against a superpower who kept their countries independent, and the Kim family has had assassination attempts as well. It is not a surprise Castro's death has received the same response Kim Jong-Il got when he died.

 

[Liquid]

In just 80 kilometers from Cuba, is Haiti. There never were any communists, just pure market economy. But despite of this, it's one of the poorest states in the world.

Haiti was a dictatorship dynasty thanks to the Duvaliers.

What the system of government is is not always the most relevant factor; a 🤬 despot murders opponents and runs the country into the ground regardless of their supposed or nominal ideology/religion.

Also, I'd hazard a guess that the reason very little was done about Haiti by the Western Democracy Police was because there was nothing to be gained from it; not a great producer of exports and few mineral resources. With Cuba, things were tried a lot by both the US and USSR because there were things to be gained from it.

 

[Imari]

You could have a man like Castro running Finland like he did Cuba for 50 years and it wouldn't change your original post about the man; the country is irrelevant.

The way you described Castro is much in the same vain that the Kim family has been described. They were both unitary, socialist leaders, who had history of executing their people if they disobeyed, both having a strong stance against a superpower who kept their countries independent, and the Kim family has had assassination attempts as well. It is not a surprise Castro's death has received the same response Kim Jong-Il got when he died.

Apart from executing people, you could be describing MLK. He had assassination attempts, was a unitary socialist leader, and had a strong stance against a superpower who was limiting his people's independence. He's three out of four, and yet he's celebrated as one of the greatest men of the twentieth century. And rightly so.

Isn't it funny how much of this sort of thing relies on people sharing preconceived notions of who is "good" and "bad"? Ignore a bit here and a bit there, and you can make a great story out of anything.

The reality is that most modern leaders have a lot of blood on their hands one way or another. Castro doesn't strike me as particularly special just because he ordered a lot of people killed. It's a horrible thing, but everyone else seems to do it so why single him out? It's arguably part of the job.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The moment you started calling them commies you lost all objectivity. Is this the 70's where the phrase "commie" is still used as a derogatory term?

One would think that by now we'd have accepted that countries can have whatever governmental structure they want, and we judge them for their actions.

Calling them what they are means I've lost my objectivity? . Please show me where this is the governmental structure that Cubans really want. It's a commie dictatorship with all that entails. The murder, the unjust imprisonment, the rationing, favouritism for the high ranking party members, boss lives like a king, brother takes over when he dies etc. I have no trouble calling a spade a spade. Sorry, not sorry that you don't like it.

 

[Tornado]

Apart from executing people, you could be describing MLK.

Yeah, other than that

 

[Imari]

Calling them what they are means I've lost my objectivity? . Please show me where this is the governmental structure that Cubans really want. It's a commie dictatorship with all that entails. The murder, the unjust imprisonment, the rationing, favouritism for the high ranking party members, boss lives like a king, brother takes over when he dies etc. I have no trouble calling a spade a spade. Sorry, not sorry that you don't like it.

What's the difference between calling someone Japanese and calling them a jay ay pee (word filter will not let me type that word without it autocorrecting apparently, despite it being relevant to the conversation)? One is intended to be a term of disrespect and abuse, as you clearly intend "commie" to be.

You're not calling a spade a spade. You're calling a spade a dirty :censored:ing hole grubber, in the hopes that the emotional response that people have to the term "commie" will cause them to agree without fully considering the argument.

If you can't refer to the subject without resorting to slander, you're unable to be objective. I know you're not sorry, but I feel sorry for you that you have this irrational hatred of communists and communism. They're just people too.

Yeah, other than that

Yes. Which is a big deal, but then why even refer to the other parts? Clearly they're not relevant. The big problem of the four things you mentioned is executions, which is why without that one can apply the same labels to people as different as Castro and MLK. The other three only exist to narrow the list down unnecessarily so that you can include KJI.

And so if we're simply talking about executing people, then we can add to the list most of the US presidents. In fact, probably the leaders of just about every country in the world. The only difference then lies in scale, and frankly even the most optimistic estimates of Castro's executions aren't really on the scale of things like a good solid "war".

I'm not saying we should excuse executions. I'm saying that you can't single out Castro as being abnormal for it. Especially when a big chunk of the executions came after he overthrew a brutal regime and they were arguably punishments for war crimes committed by that regime.

 

[Carbonox]

The only reason Castro is being "singled out" here might just be that this thread is about him and his death...

Anyway, now that that card has been thrown around, I'll also declare myself an anti-commie and proud of it. Funny how that broken ideology seems to gather so much support in safe bubbles within the capitalist West...

 

[eran0004]

The only reason Castro is being "singled out" here might just be that this thread is about him and his death...

You missed the crucial part:

...single out Castro as being abnormal...

 

[Joel]

 

[ryzno]

So Colin Kaepernick the out spoken back-up Quarterback for the San Farnsisco 49ers who refused to stand for the national anthem. Has started another uproar...
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/27/us/nfl-colin-kaepernick-castro-feud/index.html
After the loss and being put on his butt by a Cuban American Miami Dolphins player to end the game. He seems to be changing his tune.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...fidel-castro-comments-after-loss-to-dolphins/

 

[Rage Racer]

You could have a man like Castro running Finland like he did Cuba for 50 years and it wouldn't change your original post about the man; the country is irrelevant.

The way you described Castro is much in the same vain that the Kim family has been described. They were both unitary, socialist leaders, who had history of executing their people if they disobeyed, both having a strong stance against a superpower who kept their countries independent, and the Kim family has had assassination attempts as well. It is not a surprise Castro's death has received the same response Kim Jong-Il got when he died.

Fine, there are even more people who meet these criterions similarly, not just Castro and Kims.

Park Chung-hee, a South Korean president. A true dictator who also had assasination attempts, the last one of which was successful. But meanwhile, he is also known for economic policy that finally allowed his Korea to overtake the North (!).

Augusto Pinochet. A university project of economists from Chicago and a proud anti-communist fighter. This one wasn't a peaceful hippie to his opponents, too ("Santiago stadium sandwiches", "Helicopter trips", "Caravan of Death" should say something). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suppose this man doesn't recieve so much anger and hate in the US as Castro does, as I see in this thread.

Francisco Franco. An older guy, who was a friend of Hitler and Mussolini, but managed not to involve his country into WWII, thus keeping it independent. The author of the "Spanish economic wonder" of the '60s. However, the number of victims of his regime estimates 200,000 to 400,000 deaths. But there were memorials of him in Spain until 2000's (and may still be some, not sure).

All these people recieve various opinions, both positive and negative, much like Castro. It's a lot more complicated study than just saying "He's just like Kim Jong Il/Un, how can you speak positively about him?!".

Commie country, no free press, no access to any statistics concerning healthcare that aren't processed by the commies.

I'm not sure about Cuba, but in the Soviet Union, the commies were very serious about statistics. The Soviet data on healthcare is widely available nowadays. No need to stereotype people like this.

 

[Pupik]

"E'ta una comemierda!" doesn't translate well enough to have the same effect for GTP lol.

Worst Cuban Cuisine Ever.

 

[Touring Mars]

I guess flags in San Francisco's Castro district will be flying at half mast this week...

... guess not.

I agree with some of the above posters that it is not as straightforward as simply characterising the man as either bad or good, but I don't believe that anyone who is directly responsible for overseeing mass murder can or should ever be excused for that behaviour, even if they also happened to achieve some good things for some people i.e. the people that they personally approved of or permitted to be part of society. I must admit that I don't know a great deal about Castro's 'good' achievements, and I don't doubt that he managed to achieve some laudable things in his time - but admiring the man for Cuba's good points while overlooking his horrific abuses of power is a bit like admiring Ted Bundy for his mathematics skills. Hopefully Castro's legacy will be an instructive one.

 

[Dotini]

When does human slaughter in pursuit of war and revolution cross the line into murder?

Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Truman, Bush and Obama all killed people in numbers great or small in pursuit of political objectives. Yet, because they were winners, history gives them a pass.

 

[Liquid]

Bush and Obama

Because they are modern day leaders, neither of these men will get passes when they die.

 

[PeterJB]

When does human slaughter in pursuit of war and revolution cross the line into murder?

Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Truman, Bush and Obama all killed people in numbers great or small in pursuit of political objectives. Yet, because they were winners, history gives them a pass.

It depends more on who or what you're fighting against rather than if you won or lost.

 

[Omnis]

I agree with some of the above posters that it is not as straightforward as simply characterising the man as either bad or good, but I don't believe that anyone who is directly responsible for overseeing mass murder can or should ever be excused for that behaviour, even if they also happened to achieve some good things for some people i.e. the people that they personally approved of or permitted to be part of society. I must admit that I don't know a great deal about Castro's 'good' achievements, and I don't doubt that he managed to achieve some laudable things in his time - but admiring the man for Cuba's good points while overlooking his horrific abuses of power is a bit like admiring Ted Bundy for his mathematics skills. Hopefully Castro's legacy will be an instructive one.

Middle of the road leads to socialism.

I can't believe people think there is even a BIT of good to Fidel Castro! WTF is this? Just because some teenage pinko philosophers (that grew up to write for their papers) said so?

Castro was not only a mass murderer, he was empirically bad for "the rest of Cuba" too.



http://economics.ca/2013/papers/SG0030-1.pdf

It's not like this hasn't been studied rigorously. This is not an argument on the internet or in front of Cafe Versailles. Yet we still have sapingas engaging in apologetics for an ASESINO and an impoverished nation in order to protect a stupid ideology.

 

[killerjimbag]

So Colin Kaepernick the out spoken back-up Quarterback for the San Farnsisco 49ers who refused to stand for the national anthem. Has started another uproar...
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/27/us/nfl-colin-kaepernick-castro-feud/index.html
After the loss and being put on his butt by a Cuban American Miami Dolphins player to end the game. He seems to be changing his tune.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...fidel-castro-comments-after-loss-to-dolphins/

Can he just go away. The guy is a waste of print.

 

[killerjimbag]

When does human slaughter in pursuit of war and revolution cross the line into murder?

Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Truman, Bush and Obama all killed people in numbers great or small in pursuit of political objectives. Yet, because they were winners, history gives them a pass.

They killed people,so you have the right to respond here. Think about it!

 

[McLaren]

Apart from executing people, you could be describing MLK.

Yeah, we're going to stop there because once you start ignoring the negatives of a person, anyone can look like a saint.

We'll ignore the fact MLK didn't survive assassination attempts considering that's what actually killed him, so yeah, apart from that & executing/treating his followers like scum, Castro & MLK are definitely a lot a like.

All these people recieve various opinions, both positive and negative, much like Castro. It's a lot more complicated study than just saying "He's just like Kim Jong Il/Un, how can you speak positively about him?!".

You're right, it isn't that simple. Except, it was you who described Castro with a broad description that could have applied to the Kim family that made him seem more positive. They're both on the low end of deserving any recognition.

When does human slaughter in pursuit of war and revolution cross the line into murder?

Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Truman, Bush and Obama all killed people in numbers great or small in pursuit of political objectives. Yet, because they were winners, history gives them a pass.

When it becomes human slaughter for neither war or revolution.

Castro treated his own people like scum. Let me know where any of the US Presidents decided to have such a literal death grip on us Americans that we were even close to what Castro's people went through if they broke a law.

It began with mass summary executions of Batista officials and soon progressed to internment of thousands of gay men and lesbians; systematic, block-by-block surveillance of the entire citizenry; repeated purges, complete with show trials and executions, of the ruling party; and punishment for dissident artists, writers and journalists. Mr. Castro’s regime learned from the totalitarian patron he chose to offset the U.S. adversary — the Soviet Union, whose offensive nuclear missiles he welcomed, bringing the world to the brink of armageddon. Mr. Castro sponsored violent subversive movements in half a dozen Latin American countries and even in his dotage helped steer Venezuela to economic and political catastrophe through his patronage of Hugo Chávez.

 

[Dotini]

Let me know where any of the US Presidents decided to have such a literal death grip on us Americans that we were even close to what Castro's people went through if they broke a law.

It looks like Turkey is even now suffering a reign of terror or revenge for the failed coup.