FITT - Moving on to GT6!

[DigitalBaka]

Hmm, will there really be that many cars that will fit the lower class? As CSL mentioned I rarely look at displacement so I don't know how much variety there might be here. I also agree you would want to keep the PP lower for class B as going too high up the scale will competitively rule out some of the cars you are intending to include in the first place.

 

[XDesperado67]

Hmm, will there really be that many cars that will fit the lower class? As CSL mentioned I rarely look at displacement so I don't know how much variety there might be here. I also agree you would want to keep the PP lower for class B as going too high up the scale will competitively rule out some of the cars you are intending to include in the first place.

Setting aside all the FF Kei cars there are a good number of others from all over that have under 1liter engines. Including the Kei cars I'd say there is probably close to twice as many cars/model variants under 1liter as there is between 1 liter and 1.5 liters. Now in fairness there are a few cars that will struggle to make 405PP but they wouldn't be competitive regardless of PP limits (2CV for example) however there should be more than you might think that are easily capable of reaching much higher PP than that. As for Class B while I think many of you might be surprised by how many in that class could easily reach 450PP in the spirit of trying to make it as open as possible why don't we aim for 430PP which means they will also be useful for earning a few credits in addition to just being Shootout tunes.👍👍

Must say that my favorite car is likely to be an odd man out in this Shootout as it requires way to much detuning for Class A at 405PP and probably won't be competitive with the best in Class B...Oh well just means I'll be looking for entries along with the rest of you.

Edited above because reviewing my notes it appears to be about an even split. Was thinking back to when I considered making Class A go up to 1.2 liters instead of 1.

 

[nomis3613]

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I think over-popularity of tuning events is something that needs to be dealt with. When a shootout doubles or triples the expected number of cars, it can place huge strain on the organisers and testers.

I suggest a limit to the number of entries (first in, first served) or a structure to go multi-round if needed. The tricky thing is that it is unfair if all cars aren't scored by the same testers, the only solution I know of is to split into groups and say the top 2 from each group go into the final round.

Just some ideas, hope this helps.

 

[XDesperado67]

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I think over-popularity of tuning events is something that needs to be dealt with. When a shootout doubles or triples the expected number of cars, it can place huge strain on the organisers and testers.

I suggest a limit to the number of entries (first in, first served) or a structure to go multi-round if needed. The tricky thing is that it is unfair if all cars aren't scored by the same testers, the only solution I know of is to split into groups and say the top 2 from each group go into the final round.

Just some ideas, hope this helps.

If you look at my Tons of Fun Shootout you'll see that I did split things into test groups with two rounds of testing total. I plan on doing things in a similar fashion for my upcoming FF Shootout.

 

[Onboy123]

Hmm……guys, given the current situation with the tuning forum split fairly firmly in half, I think it may be a good idea to not run these events to closely to one another for a bit first, we all need to take a breather and just calm down, it seems. So Desperado, maybe consider waiting a week before starting the FF shootout to give people a bit of breathing room and just for everyone to cool it for a bit, since the "relationship" between us lot seem to be quite strained, at the moment.

 

[DigitalBaka]

I think the schedule is not as bad as you may think. In any given event you get a break between the tuning and testing. There is no reason you need to participate in every event. Each of us knows our limits and when we are going to feel burn out so it is more on the individual in my opinion. If we slow down too much the anxious folk will get on edge too. I mean, have you seen the way Despy begs for feedback?!

That said I am amenable to a quick break. I will let a civil discussion take its course but either way would be fine for me.

Regarding the growth of events, we did do the ToF event in groups, as mentioned, and it did work out pretty well. Way back when, zero speed had suggested events with a tuner limit which would also work. In that case the first lets say dozen tuners to express interest would get in. That could work as well and there is at least one event planned to try that out. I think the best way would be to have two or more folks running an event so no one person is getting hit with all of the stress. The logistics of actually hosting a shootout are more tedious than I think most people realize. If you can spread the responsibility it greatly helps things to run smoothly and efficiently.

 

[CSLACR]

Hmm……guys, given the current situation with the tuning forum split fairly firmly in half, I think it may be a good idea to not run these events to closely to one another for a bit first, we all need to take a breather and just calm down, it seems. So Desperado, maybe consider waiting a week before starting the FF shootout to give people a bit of breathing room and just for everyone to cool it for a bit, since the "relationship" between us lot seem to be quite strained, at the moment.

I agree, though the division won't be helped by it.

The division is between people that think rules are flexible, and people who think it's pathetic to cheat in these shootouts.
One or the other will likely go by the wayside, most likely those that can actually follow rules will leave first though, that's how it works 90% of the time.


It's a classic case, getting caught red handed, and rather than accept blame, try to call it "crying" "whining", "tattletale".

So it's a decision everyone making a future shootout will need to make: Does this shootout have rules? Or can someone enter cars without regard to shootout parameters?

 

[XDesperado67]

Hmm……guys, given the current situation with the tuning forum split fairly firmly in half, I think it may be a good idea to not run these events to closely to one another for a bit first, we all need to take a breather and just calm down, it seems. So Desperado, maybe consider waiting a week before starting the FF shootout to give people a bit of breathing room and just for everyone to cool it for a bit, since the "relationship" between us lot seem to be quite strained, at the moment.

I have no problem waiting an extra few days to start my Shootout, would prefer to start it on a a Friday anyways so lets aim for the 8th as a start unless people are still upset by then.
What's happened is very unfortunate and at least for me one of the darker times we've had around here. With that in mind I've decided that for my Shootout that I'm going to be a real hardcase about my rules. Not pointing fingers at anyone else as I'm as guilty as others, but we've had a tenancy to be very lax about things and allowing entries that at the least violated the spirit of the event if not the exact letter of the rules.
Hopefully by enforcing my rules stringently and making sure that everyone is not only in compliance with them but held to the same standards we won't have a repeat of this. Doesn't mean the Shootout won't be about having fun or that it might not have a tense moment or two. Hopefully people will participate and find it fun, but if they don't feel comfortable with my rules or can't have fun without creating a disruption for all then they are free not to participate and are hereby encouraged to pass on the event. Questions about the rules will be welcomed, arguments regarding them and their application will not be tolerated. I'll do my best to make them as clear as possible but being human I'll most likely fail on something at some point in my writeup so will do my best to fix such things as quickly as possible.

 

[krenkme]

Okay, time for the guy that caused all of this to chime in.

I don't think the forum is divided. A little heated yes, but nothing that can't get worked out. We all love this game (that's why we're here) and we all want to enjoy it. My mini-shootout got out of hand and I didn't know how to fix it (to my liking), but it is in the hands of some great members now, and moving forward. I'm sorry if some feel my actions were disappointing, but I was not having the fun I set out for anymore and quit. That makes me a quitter, and I know that, again I'm sorry. No one to blame for the recent problems but myself, and for that I am sorry as well. We all learned something from this and future hosts of shootouts will have more balls then I failed to have.

Again no division in the tuning forum (we leave that to the drag guys ) just a little ruckus that will work its way out. No hard feelings and lets move on okay?

 

[Onboy123]

It's a classic case, getting caught red handed, and rather than accept blame, try to call it "crying" "whining", "tattletale".

ENOUGH OF THIS. Matters are settled already, DO NOT try start fights. I may be overly strict with what's being said, but having just settled that dispute, those kinds of things is just asking for a rematch.

It's done, both sides made their point and we've moved on. Leave it at that.

 

[nomis3613]

...sorry Onboy, you're not gonna like this, but I feel the need to drag this out a bit more (in the hope of getting things sorted).

If you look through the shootout thread, everyone except 2 people were totally calm and tolerant about the oil-change issue (there were others who politely quit the comp, but that's cool). All of the angst was directly related to CSLACR and VTiRoj. I can accept each of their reasons, but they took things far too seriously and eventually it degraded to them flaming each other. This selfishly spoiled the fun times for everyone else.

So the problem isn't PP gain, oil changes, timing of shootouts or any GT5 detail like that (no matter how hard organisers try- and you guys do try very hard 👍 ) there will always be stuff like this that crop up, the key is people's attitudes in dealing with these situations. I think the best approach is to disqualify the painful minority of flamers/bickerers and remind folks it's just a bit of videogame fun, so it's not worth getting cranky over.

given the current situation with the tuning forum split fairly firmly in half

Actually I think it's just 2 tuners warring and everyone else just trying to get on with things.

 

[Onboy123]

In any case, we might need to consider the "DQ the fighting bunch" idea. Another idea is, (although it may be completely unnecessary and might even bring more harm than good) in very extreme cases, a temporary suspension of a user from entering any F.I.T.T event could be considered, however, we can't do anything to actually enforce this apart from just ignoring that person, which is a bit...weak. And this measure is also almost too harsh, given that we are supposedly doing these things for fun.

There's absolutely no benefit in that anyway, it's just an extremely short term method for excluding people for derailing a thread.

 

[Milldrum]

My 2 cents.

F.I.T.T. was started to have these fun tuning events that any fair minded person could enter. Driver or Tuner, all would be welcome as long as they were respectful to everyone. Issues arise from time to time, but it's the quick and fair deciding of these issues that keep the events under control. Maybe every rule under the Sun could be included, or every possible scenario could be included, but the issue in any event was to be decided by the Host. If they could not decide then they could ask for help.

If someone has an issue then they could be required to PM the host first. That would keep the event clean and clear of the arguments for and against. The decision would then be able to be made in a less pressured environment. But the Host would be the Boss. Any decision would be final.

 

[XDesperado67]

I'd like to refer everyone back to the F.I.T.T. rules on page one of this thread, specifically rule #13. Looks like I need to make a small edit in it so it reads Driver and Tuner not just Driver but otherwise I believe that rule was instituted just for these types of situations.
That said STC1 wasn't included at the time it took place as an official F.I.T.T. event, not sure if that was on purpose or an oversight on my part, but because of that I hadn't included the current STC2 either. If event sponsors don't indicate their event is a F.I.T.T. event or make reference to the F.I.T.T. rules then applying those rules would make no sense and the Sponsor/host is on their own for dealing with issues that arise.
Not trying to be a jerk here or tell everyone how to run events, but we did establish a very short list of rules to help keep these types of events running as smoothly as possible.
I don't like playing rules lawyer with people but in my opinion if these events are going to run smoothly then rules for that event need to be established, adhered to and enforced on everyone. If that means someone gets DQed then unfortunately so be it. Maybe in future they will pay better attention and not ignore the rules.

 

[trackripper123]

I'm all for the enforcing of the rules all the way through the shootout, they're there for a reason, to make the playing field fair for everyone, and as a consequence making the results closer and more exciting so people have more fun, right?

If a person enters a car that does not meet regulations he should get DQ'ed, simple as that, regardless of "the spirit" or whatever bull is used to justify their entry or participation. By their unfair entry they're not keeping to the "spirit" themselves.

Massively looking forward to your shootout Despy, and hopefully none of this shambles will happen again. 👍

 

[CSLACR]

ENOUGH OF THIS. Matters are settled already, DO NOT try start fights. I may be overly strict with what's being said, but having just settled that dispute, those kinds of things is just asking for a rematch.

It's done, both sides made their point and we've moved on. Leave it at that.

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm repeating exactly what happened.

I'm not starting a race riot if I say white people used to have black people as slaves, and I'm not starting a fight when I say what someone did on a forum from one day to the next.

Even if what they did points out clearly that they knew and continued with full intent, it's still not starting a fight.

Have no worries, I won't be mentioning another person breaking the rules in any of these shootouts. Even if I can't enter a shootout because I'm told a rule, and someone breaks it the next day and it's forgiven.
I am Switzerland, anyone that really thinks they need that kind of advantage is doing something wrong anyway.

But I'll never, ever, ever test a car 1mm out of spec again. Nor will I re-borrow a car to test at a later date because someone couldn't follow the rules.
These shootouts have gone from easy and fun to borrowing cars, re-borrowing cars, and searching around waiting for accepts, cars on share, oil changes they forgot, too much HP, all avoidable, none being avoided.

The performance has been growing sloppy, so if I've changed that by daring to insist on it, then I've done you all a favor, whether you can figure that out or not. Your welcome.
Shootouts are more fun when rules exist, and you've all collectively been ignoring them more and more with every shootout that passes, so again, your welcome.
Every time I mention rules, I hear groaning and moaning from someone, so now someone else can mention rules and deal with it, or rules will go by the wayside. I'll be damned if I'm going to deal with anger for being the only person that actually defends the rules.


I have to wonder though, how do you accidentally break regs in a car?
I've never done it once, in all these shootouts, in all my online races, I've done them all without ever breaching regulations.
Am I that amazing? Or are people not trying even a little?

 

[DigitalBaka]

I have to say that I would tend to agree with CSL here on the particular issue that we have been getting lax in the rule enforcement department. From extending deadlines to allowing cars that don't quite meet restrictions or get through loopholes. I am guilty of this as well and I think my particular oversight has indirectly led to the current "heavy air" here in the forum and for that I apologize.

But no more of that.

I would like to see a rule added for FITT sponsored events that rules and planned enforcement of them be spelled out at the start of the event and held up accordingly. If a deadline is set, don't move it. Figure out how you are going to deal with the rule breakers. Do they get 24 hours to amend the tune or are they straight disqualified? If krenkme wants all cars painted red, will a pink car be allowed? Make your rules and stick to them, no flexing. We all want to keep things friendly and inclusive but as we see now, flexing rules makes it not fun.

I remember way back at the Laguna Seca event we told Jackthalad he could not enter his Zonda because he was past the deadline. I'm sure he was steamed at us for a bit but as you can see he is still around entering into several events since then. If you can't tell someone 'no' then do not host. Give your idea to someone else with as much detail as possible and let them take care of running it. Plenty of people here are absolutely willing to do that for anyone with an idea who is willing to ask. That is what FITT is here for.

As someone very smart once told me, "the rules are the rules because they are the rules." They are not there to cause problems nor are they there to stop you from having fun. They are there so that everyone is playing from the same deck and has the same shot at success.

Now if you will all excuse me, I'm off to relieve some stress by beating the $#!^ out of Diablo....again.

 

[JackWilson]

Ok I have to say that I agree with the two post above but am too lazy to write my own opinion.

But if someone is caught not abiding by rules or regulations then they should be DQ straight up. Thats the way it goes, otherwise it makes it unfair for other people. It's not harsh telling someone that they have not follwed the rules and they will have to be DQ.

I remember way back at the Laguna Seca event we told Jackthalad he could not enter his Zonda because he was past the deadline

I remember this too and I have never missed a deadline since.

The deadlines are very clear from the start of the shootout, so people need to make sure they are going to be able to meet them. Earlier this year I joined a racing club and for their races you could sign up for the race in two ways.
1) Just the normal way in that you will be there at the designated time.
2) Wildcard- Not quite sure the meaning but I think it means that you might be able to make it.

Maybe we could introduce the wildcards? Although I dont really feel that we need too for these events.

On another note, I would like to run a Shootout. Possibly after Ol'Harveys upcoming FF one. Unless there is one already scheduled for after that?

 

[Diogo]

Click HERE

 

[DaDog]

I ain't no F.I.T.T. member , nor am i a tuner .... i'm just a guys who gives cars a spin and tell the tuner how i feel about the car so i might not be the most perfect person to get into this discussion .....

but still ....

I was planning on writing a long view but i am to lazy for that .
It is simple
Set the rules , follow the rules ...
Don't follow them means DQ ...
It is so simple ....


this games is about having fun , and if there are 20 tuners and only 1 is breaking the rules why should 19 other tuners have less fun because of the 1 ...

 

[CSLACR]

I'm going to write this down now before I forget about it. I'm trying to create a formula to include FWD, 4WD, and RWD cars equally in competition.

The idea is weight, for example something like 1200KG's for FWD, 1350KG for RWD, and 1500KG for 4WD, at a set PP limit.
Obviously depending on the PP level (higher or lower) the weight amounts would have to fluctuate.

I'm going to try some cars at some PP levels and see if I can find something that has at least 5 good competitors from each drivetrain.

I've also thought of possibly limiting the cars to the specific cars tested, almost like pre-made specs that bring different worlds together.

Just ideas, add on or shoot them down as you see them. Negative feedback is better than none at all.

250HP/1200KG/XXXPP FWD
275HP/1350KG/XXXPP RWD
300HP/1500KG/XXXPP 4WD

 

[Diogo]

Tires ?

 

[GeeBaby]

I think the 4wd when it comes to the lower pp needs more HP at the same weight as the others.

 

[Diogo]

It depends on 4WD , some ones turn MUCH better than others ex . HPA R32 vs GTR '12

 

[GeeBaby]

Yeah but from most of the races I have seen, the 4wd cars get creamed on the straights.

 

[Diogo]

Yeah but from most of the races I have seen, the 4wd cars get creamed on the straights.

 

[XDesperado67]

Sounds like an interesting idea CSLACR.

Isn't this similar to what RJ and Roj were setting up, just in a bit more regulated manner and for a normal F.I.T.T. Shootout length?

 

[CSLACR]

Tires ?

Depends on the power/pp level, but probably slightly on the sticky side to make it easier on the 2WD cars, particularly the FWD's.

I think the 4wd when it comes to the lower pp needs more HP at the same weight as the others.

250HP/1200KG/XXXPP FWD
275HP/1350KG/XXXPP RWD
300HP/1500KG/XXXPP 4WD

Something like that is what I have in mind.

Sounds like an interesting idea CSLACR.

Isn't this similar to what RJ and Roj were setting up, just in a bit more regulated manner and for a normal F.I.T.T. Shootout length?

Not a clue. I know RJ brought up a shootout idea twice now, but since both times he said it wouldn't be right away, I admit I didn't read any of the real details. I know details usually change in the days before a shootout depending on what surprises may arise.

If they want to do it that's fine with me, but I'm thinking this may become at least semi-common, at least balancing cars on HP/WT rather than always PP. Possibly the mix of all three will become common as well, I guess it depends how well it works.

"Creamed" is a slang term for beaten badly.
A Corvette would cream a Honda Fit on the straights.

 

[XDesperado67]

Depends on the Corvette and the Fit who would get creamed...

Had a friend back in Maryland who couldn't wait to show me his dads Corvette. Turned out to be a '75 with a 3 speed automatic transmission and completely Choked on anti-smog equipment and ment to run on low test unleaded gas. Looked okay even though it was painted a hideous orange color. Pretty sure my Neon Sport I had at the time could outrun it though as it was a real dog for performance. Against something like that I'd bet on a highly tuned Fit.

(note according to various sources the base 350CI V8 in the '75 Corvette only made 165HP...)

 

[CSLACR]

I'll make sure to specify full model and year details next time.