FITT - Moving on to GT6!

[XDesperado67]

So this is the thread I've been missing!

@CSLR:
When does it understeer: entry, mid- or corner exit? What helps? Trail-breaking? False-entry? Dropping a gear?
On what kind of corner does it understeer? Low speed sweeping? High speed Euler?
The better the test driver the better feedback he'll give you. The larger a testers vocabulary the better the description he can give.

Speaking of which: anyone interested in helping me with a Drivers and Tuners Dictionary? Standardized definitions would help everybody.

Along the lines of your dictionary...you'll notice one of the first posts in this thread is labeled FAQ. Currently other than directions on how to sort out time zones it is sadly lacking.
Would you care to write a few FAQs on commonly used terms when giving feedback.
Could start with basic things like "what is understeer" "what is oversteer" "what is trail braking" "what are corner entry, mid corner and corner exit" etc.
Don't need a whole encyclopedia there just the more commonly seen and used terms so people get a basic idea of what the test drivers are saying.

 

[Ronald6]

Pretty much what I was thinking, but in a thread all its own. Maybe in the general GT forum/stickies? And open for others to give their input.

I don't want to limit it to just the tuners. And your testers.

 

[CSLACR]

I honestly don't think we need a "testing for dummies" book, but I guess if you have the free time, have at it.

I've gotten blatantly incorrect feedback, testers don't always know what's going on.
I remember when my LSD was "too loose", according to a tester, but then that testers favorite car from that same shootout had an even looser LSD, go figure.

Right or wrong, intentional or unintentional, feedback is feedback, frankly, I find feedback the most annoying part of testing there is. It means I have to remember or write a bunch of stuff down that's going to be 90% ignored anyway.

 

[Ronald6]

@CSLACR:
The language used by tuners and drivers are totally different.

As a driver I might tell you that your car is understeering on corner entry and oversteering on corner exit. It's up to you as a tuner to translate that to tuner lingo. Drivers should avoid, IMHO, telling a tuner what's "wrong" with a car.

A tester should describe the characteristics of the car, not the reasons it's happening. Thats for the tuner.

By defining two separate lexicons, one for drivers, one for tuners, we can start to get standardized feedback.

A driver should almost never say, "your LSD is loose," instead, "the inside wheel is red on corner exit at full throttle," or something similar.

As a tester while I'm thinking of what's happening to the car I can't usually get hot laps, but I learn how the car will react. If I tell myself, "pre-entry by 3', 30% break max, full throttle is possible on exit." Then I start to understand what is happening with the car and can predict it's attitude.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Right or wrong, intentional or unintentional, feedback is feedback, frankly, I find feedback the most annoying part of testing there is. It means I have to remember or write a bunch of stuff down that's going to be 90% ignored anyway.

I think you are on an island by yourself with this one. I like getting feedback. I know how a tune handles for me, but it is good to hear how it handles for others. I guess when you believe that you are the elite and have nothing more to learn and that your method is the only way then feedback is pretty useless?

@CSLACR:
Drivers should avoid, IMHO, telling a tuner what's "wrong" with a car. A tester should describe the characteristics of the car, not the reasons it's happening. Thats for the tuner.

A driver should almost never say, "your LSD is loose," instead, "the inside wheel is red on corner exit at full throttle," or something similar.

100% agree Ronald. The feedback should be what the car is doing well and not doing well. I try to explain that in my feedback and may offer up some things to try, but I would rarely tell anyone that their settings are wrong.

 

[VTiRoj]

Could start with basic things like "what is understeer" "what is oversteer" "what is trail braking" "what are corner entry, mid corner and corner exit" etc.

Words. Pfft. Words are for little babbies. Real men use pretty pictures.

Trail braking.

 

[DigitalBaka]

Hey! I know some of those words!

 

[krenkme]

I like pictures

 

[VTiRoj]

And the holy trinity of educational imagery is complete.

 

[Ronald6]

Fine, I'll include pictured in my Tuner and Drivers Dictionary for those who don't know how to read.

 

[XDesperado67]

@Roj
Thanks for the pics I'll copy them to the FAQ if it's okay with you.

 

[VTiRoj]

@Roj
Thanks for the pics I'll copy them to the FAQ if it's okay with you.

I found them on Google so go ahead.

 

[SolidSnake7735]

words. Pfft. Words are for little babbies. Real men use pretty pictures.

aye aye cap'n!!!

 

[CSLACR]

I think you are on an island by yourself with this one. I like getting feedback. I know how a tune handles for me, but it is good to hear how it handles for others. I guess when you believe that you are the elite and have nothing more to learn and that your method is the only way then feedback is pretty useless?

Quote: "Feedback is feedback"
Quote: "frankly, I find feedback the most annoying part of testing there is."

That doesn't mean I hate receiving feedback.
1st half(before the comma) means: Feedback is feedback, which is a pretty old terminology that it's a good thing to get, and can be used.
2nd half (after a comma) means: I find feedback the most annoying part of testing there is.

Ronald6 addressed my post excellently, take some notes:

@CSLACR:
The language used by tuners and drivers are totally different.

As a driver I might tell you that your car is understeering on corner entry and oversteering on corner exit. It's up to you as a tuner to translate that to tuner lingo. Drivers should avoid, IMHO, telling a tuner what's "wrong" with a car.

A tester should describe the characteristics of the car, not the reasons it's happening. Thats for the tuner.

By defining two separate lexicons, one for drivers, one for tuners, we can start to get standardized feedback.

A driver should almost never say, "your LSD is loose," instead, "the inside wheel is red on corner exit at full throttle," or something similar.

As a tester while I'm thinking of what's happening to the car I can't usually get hot laps, but I learn how the car will react. If I tell myself, "pre-entry by 3', 30% break max, full throttle is possible on exit." Then I start to understand what is happening with the car and can predict it's attitude.

He's sensible, reasonable, calm, and not implying any accusations or sounding hostile, and he's dead-on with his point.
By the way, 👍 Ronald, dead-on.
There are times I've suggested fixes, it's quite hard not to when you're also a tuner, but it is something we should probably seperate more than we do currently. (Not stopping tuners from testing, just how tuners (including myself at times) give feedback.)

 

[Ronald6]

:Tips hat to CLSACR:

 

[CSLACR]

In any case, sign me up for "next next". (whenever that may be)
I'll have some details to add for it in the next few days months leading up till when I can finally have it.

The one detail I do have, is it will use all versions of Twin Ring Motegi before it's completed,(2 rounds) which will both be completed in one month. (One week tuning/testing for each round)
I'll be testing for that "perfect" PP range car/type over TRM in the upcoming days.

Online/Offline: All tunes in both rounds will run online and offline. (maybe, second round definitely)

Group Testing: Tunes/Tuners will be split into groups of 5, for testers ease. Testers may not select which group, just how many groups of 5 they can build/test, groups will be assigned in order to see each group gets maximum testing.

Modification unlimited: Anything you can do to make your car go fast or drive well within the PP regulation will be allowed. (All cars will need broken-in, of course. Gaining power = No. Losing power = Will be tested without regard for loss in power.)

Scoring: 1st Round: Online/Offline laps total (best 2 laps in a 5 lap session each) - Drivers choice: 1 second will be deducted from the favorite of each group's total time.
Scoring: 2nd Round: The second round will be a solo race, around Twin Ring Motegi full, Online and Offline each(Both with grip on low, tire wear on). Depending on the chosen tire compound and PP will be the amount of laps. Guesstimation of 9-15 laps, enough to mandate a pit stop. (not by actually mandating one, just longer than the tires could last, best case scenario)
Total time of both "races" will be added together, Driver's choice will be like this for Round 2: 1st -3 seconds, 2nd-2 seconds, 3rd -1 second.

That's right, the second round will be brutal for testing. The 2nd round will be limited to 5-10 cars, not sure yet.

First round might have a limit of entries, it will depend 100% solely on the amount of testers entering, and for how many cars each.


For prizes/incentive I have a few ideas I'd like to hear feedback on as well...
Tuners: Overall winner: gets any days worth of tradable stuff they want, anything.
Tuners: Drivers choice: Any days worth of tradable stuff they want, anything.

Testers: Every tester that completes any single group or round receives any premium car they desire, tuned however they desire. (If they want me to make a tune for it, etc, I will, if they want it stock, they get stock, maxed=maxed, etc.
Any tester that completes both rounds (doesn't need to be all groups in round 1) gets any days worth of tradable stuff they want, + the premium car tuned/built as they wish.

I'm actually thinking of dropping the prize for fastest total testing time and/or fastest lap. Sometimes I wonder if prizes like these don't inspire testers to drive the faster cars harder, which, especially in a case like I plan for this shootout (with tire wear and multiple consecutive laps) I'm not sure it would be beneficial.
If anything maybe just for round 2, fastest total time.


Edit: I'm also trying to think of a way to include all versions of Twin Ring Motegi, so if anyone has any ideas that would be super. 👍
I'm pretty hell bent on round 2's layout, but there might be ways to adapt round 1.

Maybe round 1 is offline only, total time from East, West, and Speedway combined?

Edit 2: DLC cars, probably not?
I can tell you for 100% there are a few DLC cars that would be awesome to have in this (already driven), so it's a shame to ban them, for sure, but not everyone has them.

 

[CSLACR]

Words. Pfft. Words are for little babbies. Real men use pretty pictures.

Trail braking.

And the holy trinity of educational imagery is complete.

These should be added to the OP.

The one thing I have to say is about the over-understeer.
Oversteer is when you have to decrease steering angle at higher speed. If you're driving in a circle, and increase your speed you will have to dial the wheel back towards the center to continue on the same path.
Under-steer is when you have to steer more when you increase speed to continue driving the same path.

That kind of sounds the same as the picture, but people often confuse the rear end sliding out with "oversteer". Yes, the car over-steered, but just because the back end is coming out while you drive doesn't mean the car is an over-steering car.
Almost any car can swing the rear out, but that doesn't mean the car over-steers, just that certain driver inputs can, intentionally or unintentionally, cause a car to over-steer regardless of it's handling characteristics.

 

[Ronald6]

^^^ This is why I want to put together a DTD (Drivers and Tuners Dictionary).

Many people use the same word for several different or desperate definitions. "Apex" is applied to both the physical track and the vehicle. I break those into two different definitions: apex for the track and focal-point for the car.

If we all share the same definitions then our communication will have less errors and misunderstandings.

If anyone wants to help me with this project please PM me. Thank you.

 

[DigitalBaka]

FITT has gone social!

http://www.facebook.com/GTPFITT

Pretty sure I can add admins for the page if anyone here is also on Facebook. Hopefully we'll be able to use this to help boost our turn out for events, particularly drivers.

 

[CyKosis1973]

FITT has gone social!

http://www.facebook.com/GTPFITT

Pretty sure I can add admins for the page if anyone here is also on Facebook. Hopefully we'll be able to use this to help boost our turn out for events, particularly drivers.

{Cy}

 

[VTiRoj]

FITT has gone social!

http://www.facebook.com/GTPFITT

Pretty sure I can add admins for the page if anyone here is also on Facebook. Hopefully we'll be able to use this to help boost our turn out for events, particularly drivers.

How about a Twitter for those of us who aren't on Facebook as much?

 

[DigitalBaka]

Yep, gonna work on that tonight I think. I don't use either much but if it helps, why not?

 

[Motor City Hami]

Big surprise. Another tuner challenge posted this week and immediately ten tuners sign up and then we need to beg for testers. The game is 1 3/4 years old. Only the hard core GT5ers are still playing. In my opinion, the tester model needs to change.

 

[CyKosis1973]

Big surprise. Another tuner challenge posted this week and immediately ten tuners sign up and then we need to beg for testers. The game is 1 3/4 years old. Only the hard core GT5ers are still playing. In my opinion, the tester model needs to change.

I saw that. I think, on my return, I'll be dedicating a bit more time to testing. The last Shootout I participated in only managed to spawn 2 testers too

{Cy}

 

[Ronald6]

So, how do I officially join FITT and have my Caterham 7 Fireblade Shootout FITT sanctioned?

 

[XDesperado67]

So, how do I officially join FITT and have my Caterham 7 Fireblade Shootout FITT sanctioned?

Anyone participating in the conversations here in this thread and F.I.T.T. events is a member. The listing in the OP is just those electing to take a more active role in things. Speaking of which I really need to update that listing as several people have requested inclusion on it.
As for getting your Fireblade Shootout "F.I.T.T. Sanctioned", we're not really a sanctioning body but more of a council that tries to help keep these sorts of events running more smoothly. To that end we ask that people wanting to sponsor a F.I.T.T. event ask to be added to the upcoming events listing and wait their turn before starting their event. Because of the difficulty in getting adequate numbers of test drivers, having multiple events running simultaneously generally doesn't work well.
As you can see from the current overabundance of events in the forum and difficulties some of these events are having getting proper testing accomplished, a bit of cooperation between those wanting to sponsor events can improve the situation for everyone. Of course this is exactly the reason we formed F.I.T.T. in the first place.

 

[VTiRoj]

Yep, gonna work on that tonight I think. I don't use either much but if it helps, why not?

Not a problem, you can link your Facebook to your Twitter so whatever you post on one gets posted on the other. 👍

 

[CSLACR]

The testers are right here in front of our faces, they're just not testing.

You're never going to find a tester for these events that doesn't, through force of habit, learn things about tuning and eventually become one, the only question is whether they'll open a garage or not. Once they're a tuner, they no longer fit the bracket "tester not a tuner", which IIRC is what was said to be desired. It hasn't happened yet, and I wouldn't recommend holding your breath for it either. (Mike_GT3 is close, but I think he's pretty much reserved for Nurburgring shootouts)

So with that in mind, we, all the tuners, are responsible for testing these events if we wish to continue to have them. There is not an endless supply of new faces to come through the door and test their first 1-2 shootouts and then just want to tune for the rest of time without testing again.

In-game prizes have little meaning at this stage in the game, which has been out 1 1/2 years now. Everyone has everything, and if they don't have it, they can probably get it. We don't enter shootouts as tuners to win a premium car do we? We enter them because we like to tune, and are potentially competitive, actual prizes received means very little to most of us.

 

[CSLACR]

Upcoming Events Calendar

Sponsor's for upcoming events listed in order of announcing intention to Sponsor an event.
Projected dates, Shootout names and details will be added as they become available.

Dragonthing's Luxury Concours D'Elegance (tentative event details not final)

DigitalBaka - World Team Challenge

Motor City Hamilton - Rally Cars vs. Street Versions

Ryan GT & Jontank5 "Hermanvongerman" - Codename "Sunday Cup Challenge" - July?

skylinegtrkid - American Classic @ Daytona

We could use an update.

I assume DragonThing's is off, no idea bout Ryan and Jontank's or Skylinegtrkid's.

Plus the current shootout isn't even on the list, and I don't have the slightest clue what might be coming after this either.

 

[trackripper123]

Nomis said something about his 40/60 60/40 shootout earlier in this thread...