FITT - Moving on to GT6!

[VTiRoj]

I like the idea of being able to change the weighting of each side of the scoring to suit the shootout. 👍

You should probably limit the changes to multiples of 5 though so the math is easier to work with. If the split is 75/25, all you have to do is multiply the driver's choice score by 2.5. So a score of 7 would work out to be 17.5. 👍

 

[Johnnypenso]

I like the idea of being able to change the weighting of each side of the scoring to suit the shootout. 👍

You should probably limit the changes to multiples of 5 though so the math is easier to work with. If the split is 75/25, all you have to do is multiply the driver's choice score by 2.5. So a score of 7 would work out to be 17.5. 👍

Multiples of 10 maybe. But even then, seeing as how it's all being done on a spreadsheet, multiples of 2.45789654122 would work as it's just one calculation, and then one copy and paste to get the whole spreadsheet programmed..lol..

But for simplicity, yeah multiples of 5 or 10:tup:

Nice idea there, although my car would be more likely the one getting "0" for driver preference The very rare tunes done without ABS and a bit wacko tuner with high BB so far, not one tester ever liked my tune except the touge tunes, well they were tuned for the twisty and sector attack.

One of the things you learn is, you have to figure out your target audience and then if you are so inclined, tailor your tune to them as best you can. Sometimes you may not want to do that, and sometimes you will. If part of your goal is to make some tunes that other people can enjoy driving and perhaps use for their own racing needs, then you have to figure out how to tune to suit other people who don't all drive like you.

I remember reading some feedback on my Nissan Silvia entry in a Nurb Shootout, the first car I tuned for CS tires. The King of the Ring, Mike_GT3 test drove my car and said stuff like, " More stable than a house, the weak point is middle of the curve where it understeer a lot, you need to wait before going full throttle and make sure you will have a fast exit.

When the guy who is one of the fastest, if not the fastest GT5'ers on the Ring' says something like that you pay attention. It motivated me to take a look at my entire approach to driving and tuning and since then I was determined to adapt my driving and tuning style to head more in the direction of oversteer when needed. Just recently I've started tuning for CSL's Nurb PP Board with some seriousness and I finally feel confident enough that my tunes have enough controlled turn in and oversteer to be competitive with really fast Ring drivers, although that remains to be tested...lol.

 

[iainoflo85]

Um, where do I signup as a test-driver?? Would love to help out and learn more at the same time - don't know if this is the right place to post this, but johnny told me about in the DeadNutsEven thread and it seemed like something I'd like to do.

 

[CSLACR]

I was driving around the other day and was thinking it feels like it should be time for another Nurburgring shootout soon...Maybe even turn it into an annual?

3 ideas
Yellow Bird
Group of "spec'd" cars at respective PP levels
550PP - any car* - RS tires**

* Alien cars, such as the Mazda Furai would be banned of course
** The sticky tires theoretically reduce the effectiveness of aero

 

[CyKosis1973]

Um, where do I signup as a test-driver?? Would love to help out and learn more at the same time - don't know if this is the right place to post this, but johnny told me about in the DeadNutsEven thread and it seemed like something I'd like to do.

There's no sign up here as such, good Sir, keep your eye on this thread for upcoming events. Once you see the event posted in the forum, then yo usign up. Glad to have you onboard, testers can be hard to come by 👍

I was driving around the other day and was thinking it feels like it should be time for another Nurburgring shootout soon...Maybe even turn it into an annual?

3 ideas
Yellow Bird
Group of "spec'd" cars at respective PP levels
550PP - any car* - RS tires**

* Alien cars, such as the Mazda Furai would be banned of course
** The sticky tires theoretically reduce the effectiveness of aero

550PP is the top end of my comfort zone for street cars, so I'd sign up for that. I'd sign up for the 2nd option too, dependant on PP levels. You can keep your nutty Yellow Bird though, I'll watch that from the other side of the armco...

{Cy}

 

[XDesperado67]

@Cy the other side of the armco is the most dangerous place to be...the car has protection for the driver so it's fairly safe and since they almost never find the apex of corners standing mid track between the apex and corner exit is probably the safest place to be if their testing Yellowbirds.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

One of the things you learn is, you have to figure out your target audience and then if you are so inclined, tailor your tune to them as best you can. Sometimes you may not want to do that, and sometimes you will. If part of your goal is to make some tunes that other people can enjoy driving and perhaps use for their own racing needs, then you have to figure out how to tune to suit other people who don't all drive like you.

I remember reading some feedback on my Nissan Silvia entry in a Nurb Shootout, the first car I tuned for CS tires. The King of the Ring, Mike_GT3 test drove my car and said stuff like, " More stable than a house, the weak point is middle of the curve where it understeer a lot, you need to wait before going full throttle and make sure you will have a fast exit.

When the guy who is one of the fastest, if not the fastest GT5'ers on the Ring' says something like that you pay attention. It motivated me to take a look at my entire approach to driving and tuning and since then I was determined to adapt my driving and tuning style to head more in the direction of oversteer when needed. Just recently I've started tuning for CSL's Nurb PP Board with some seriousness and I finally feel confident enough that my tunes have enough controlled turn in and oversteer to be competitive with really fast Ring drivers, although that remains to be tested...lol.

Thanks JP for the advice, yeah, I often forgot to tailor a sensible BB for ABS 1, the weird thing is, my tunes with high BB and no ABS works fine with the host and testers at the Touge Showdown event currently still running. You should give my R33 Hosaka Tuning MAX class a go, try it at Toscana ( AKINA - shared on my account ) or Eiger, fun car to drive, oversteer in R33 GTR FTW. Link on my sig, you should participate too, 300 and MAX still open for next round in January '13

Most of my tunes from previous FITT shootouts did not go well with wheel users, sometimes the tunes were harder to handle than the stock tune, mostly due to understeer, loose rear or too much brake force ... I'll need an assistant test crash driver with ABS 1, to give me feedback

 

[Motor City Hami]

JohhnyP, CSLACR and Roj - love your ideas for the points system. Easy to make the average lap calculation be worth 90 points for the fastest car and 1 to 10 for the driver's choice.

I also found it challenging to rate the DC in my race car challenge. There were some tunes that were right on the edge of perfect and realy deserved a little lower than the top score. I am happy to help with FITT points in the future.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Thanks JP for the advice, yeah, I often forgot to tailor a sensible BB for ABS 1, the weird thing is, my tunes with high BB and no ABS works fine with the host and testers at the Touge Showdown event currently still running. You should give my R33 Hosaka Tuning MAX class a go, try it at Toscana ( AKINA - shared on my account ) or Eiger, fun car to drive, oversteer in R33 GTR FTW. Link on my sig, you should participate too, 300 and MAX still open for next round in January '13

Most of my tunes from previous FITT shootouts did not go well with wheel users, sometimes the tunes were harder to handle than the stock tune, mostly due to understeer, loose rear or too much brake force ... I'll need an assistant test crash driver with ABS 1, to give me feedback

To be honest, I feel like you are hiding behing ABS 0 a little bit. In the race car challenge you did receive some good feedback that was not related to braking zones and corner entry. Take that advice and add it to your future tests.

And I know that I double posted. Two separate subjects and not just trying to increase post counts or bump.

 

[CSLACR]

I've driven and made tunes as high as 9/8 BB, so personally I don't think the high BB changes that much personally.
I know with ABS on it decreases stopping distance a little bit, but I don't know that it works the same for without.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

To be honest, I feel like you are hiding behing ABS 0 a little bit. In the race car challenge you did receive some good feedback that was not related to braking zones and corner entry. Take that advice and add it to your future tests.

And I know that I double posted. Two separate subjects and not just trying to increase post counts or bump.

I see your point, I did receive some nice feedback about how the cars behaved on the track, about the gearing and overall handling. I said about the BB because some of the testers did said about the way the car brake into a corner and their tendency to understeer with ABS 1. I thought that with lower BB, ABS 1 would have less understeer than their high BB tune. I will make sure in the future to have someone with ABS 1 tests my tune

I've driven and made tunes as high as 9/8 BB, so personally I don't think the high BB changes that much personally.
I know with ABS on it decreases stopping distance a little bit, but I don't know that it works the same for without.

It does make it easier for me to modulate the brake force, I am using a unique stick so high BB actually helped me get the best out of ABS 0. Lower BB value does work well, but more strain on my fingers to apply much pressure to get that optimum brake force while trail braking. I can be consistent with both low and high, I just like how responsive and immediate the high BB in braking from low speed - I used L2 for left foot braking in mid corner and triangle as my right foot equivalent as I use circle for gas.

About the stopping distance, I did a thorough test at SSR X long ago, both with ABS 1 and ABS 0 using various BB, 0/0, 10/10, 10/0, 0/10, 5/5, 10/5, 5/10, all done on the same car ( stock ) with SH tires, I measured brake distance by braking from the 1000m ( the speed was above 200 km/h ) sign until dead stop. Higher BB did decrease stopping distance, with or without ABS. ABS 1 was done with full brake applied all the way, and ABS 0 with threshold braking.

0/0 BB with ABS 0 is like having drum brakes took so long to scrub off speed even with full brake. 10/10 BB with ABS 0 is like having better brake pads and rotor, able to stop earlier than lower BB ( I compared it to 10/5, 7/5 and 5/3 ) all done with threshold braking at the limit of front tire grip.

 

[Motor City Hami]

What happened to the Wagon Challenge idea? I thought that one sounded like fun. It has to be run by Clueless tunes. Maybe wagons on the hardest tires in the game?

 

[VTiRoj]

What happened to the Wagon Challenge idea? I thought that one sounded like fun. It has to be run by Clueless tunes. Maybe wagons on the hardest tires in the game?

Krenkme sold the idea to Top Gear. (Top Gear spoilers.)

 

[Motor City Hami]

Krenkme sold the idea to Top Gear. (Top Gear spoilers.)

Perfect! We can use the Top Gear Test Track and a dirt track.

 

[VTiRoj]

Perfect! We can use the Top Gear Test Track and a dirt track.

I can get behind that idea. 👍

 

[Onboy123]

I can get behind that idea. 👍

No you don't. Not until you get TCv0.5 actually done. IF you plan on doing it, that is.

 

[VTiRoj]

No you don't. Not until you get TCv0.5 actually done. IF you plan on doing it, that is.

Well since RJ is back and operational we can start getting back on track with that. Just have to wait until we don't have a billion other things going on.

Also I love wagons.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Is this the full list of GT5 Wagons?

GT5 Wagons
S Audi RS 4 '01
S Audi RS 6 Avant ’02
P Audi RS 6 Avant ’08
S BMW 120d ’04
S BMW 120i ’04
S Lexus IS300 SportCross '01
S Subaru Legacy Touring Wagon 2.0GT '03
S Subaru Legacy Touring Wagon 2.0GT Spec-B '03
S Subaru Legacy Touring Wagon 3.0R '03
S Subaru Legacy Touring Wagon GT-B '96
S Subaru Impreza Sport Wagon STi (Type-I) '00
S Subaru Impreza Sport Wagon WRX STi Version VI '99
P Mini Cooper S Countryman '11
S Mitsubishi Airtrek Turbo-R ‘02
S Mitsubishi Legnum VR-4 Type V ‘98
S Nissan Stagea 260rs Autech Version ‘98
S Nissan Stagea 25t RS Four S '98
S Nissan EXA Canopy L.A.Version Type S ‘88
S Toyota Caldina GT Four ‘02
S Toyota Altezza Gita AS300 '01
S Volvo 240 GLT Estate '88

 

[Onboy123]

Uhh…the BMW isn't really a Wagon, technically. And if you were to include the 1 series, do include the diesel version, with bonus points for those willing to even try using it. I'd love to see the first ever diesel to win a shootout be that thing.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Uhh…the BMW isn't really a Wagon, technically. And if you were to include the 1 series, do include the diesel version, with bonus points for those willing to even try using it. I'd love to see the first ever diesel to win a shootout be that thing.

Quick eyes Onboy. I was questioning the BMW and the Mini. Should we keep those in because they are wagonish and pretty cool cars?

 

[Onboy123]

Quick eyes Onboy. I was questioning the BMW and the Mini. Should we keep those in because they are wagonish and pretty cool cars?

Well…the Countryman is definitely more "Estate/Station Wagon" than "Hatchback", so it should stay in, I think. The BMW is definitely in the "Hatchback" camp though.

And just to separate the cars a bit, maybe run it in PP classes? I mean, however much I want to see the Nissan EXA keep pace with a full fat RS6, it's just not going to happen. So maybe 2 or 3 classes depending on the car's capability so that it won't just be a bunch of RS6s at the end of the day…

…though you've probably thought of that even without me saying.

 

[trackripper123]

Lexus Sport Cross is also in there, though that's the same as that Toyota isn't it?

 

[krenkme]

What happened to the Wagon Challenge idea? I thought that one sounded like fun. It has to be run by Clueless tunes. Maybe wagons on the hardest tires in the game?

Krenkme sold the idea to Top Gear. (Top Gear spoilers.)

I got paid in beer and pretzels yummy!

Perfect! We can use the Top Gear Test Track and a dirt track.

That sounds like a fun idea

 

[krenkme]

How about the FIT or the Vibe? Also the Suzuki MR Wagon sport?

double post king strikes again

 

[VTiRoj]

Well…the Countryman is definitely more "Estate/Station Wagon" than "Hatchback", so it should stay in, I think. The BMW is definitely in the "Hatchback" camp though.

The Countryman is a crossover SUV.

Also the EXA is flat out not capable of going that much higher than 450PP, so that's your bottom class sorted.

I got paid in beer and pretzels yummy!

How about the FIT or the Vibe? Also the Suzuki MR Wagon sport?

double post king strikes again

They're all hatchbacks and the Suzuki is a Wagon by name only.

 

[xande1959]

I would love to participate but my English and pessimo and also use the translator of google which is not too much, it is difficult to write ja imagine talking, but I gradually learning.

 

[CyKosis1973]

Is this the full list of GT5 Wagons?

GT5 Wagons
S Audi RS 4 '01
S Audi RS 6 Avant ’02
P Audi RS 6 Avant ’08
S BMW 120d ’04
S BMW 120i ’04
S Lexus IS300 SportCross '01
S Subaru Legacy Touring Wagon 2.0GT '03
S Subaru Legacy Touring Wagon 2.0GT Spec-B '03
S Subaru Legacy Touring Wagon 3.0R '03
S Subaru Legacy Touring Wagon GT-B '96
S Subaru Impreza Sport Wagon STi (Type-I) '00
S Subaru Impreza Sport Wagon WRX STi Version VI '99
P Mini Cooper S Countryman '11
S Mitsubishi Airtrek Turbo-R ‘02
S Mitsubishi Legnum VR-4 Type V ‘98
S Nissan Stagea 260rs Autech Version ‘98
S Nissan Stagea 25t RS Four S '98
S Nissan EXA Canopy L.A.Version Type S ‘88
S Toyota Caldina GT Four ‘02
S Toyota Altezza Gita AS300 '01
S Volvo 240 GLT Estate '88

If you're going to include the BMW's, you perhaps ought to include the Alfa 147's. They're all technically hatchbacks, but if you're going to put one in, then put the other in too.

Others to consider:

Chrysler PT Cruiser '00
Honda ELEMENT '03
Honda ODYSSEY '03
Mazda MX-Crossport Concept '05
Renault AVANTIME '02

Scrapping the barrel, I know, but...

{Cy}

 

[CSLACR]

Higher
S Audi RS 4 '01
S Audi RS 6 Avant ’02
P Audi RS 6 Avant ’08
S Subaru Legacy Touring Wagon 2.0GT '03
S Subaru Legacy Touring Wagon 2.0GT Spec-B '03
S Subaru Legacy Touring Wagon 3.0R '03
S Subaru Legacy Touring Wagon GT-B '96
S Subaru Impreza Sport Wagon STi (Type-I) '00
S Subaru Impreza Sport Wagon WRX STi Version VI '99


Lower
S Mitsubishi Airtrek Turbo-R ‘02
S Mitsubishi Legnum VR-4 Type V ‘98
S Nissan Stagea 260rs Autech Version ‘98
S Nissan Stagea 25t RS Four S '98
S Nissan EXA Canopy L.A.Version Type S ‘88
S Toyota Caldina GT Four ‘02
S BMW 120d ’04
S BMW 120i ’04
S Lexus IS300 SportCross '01
P Mini Cooper S Countryman '11
S Toyota Altezza Gita AS300 '01
S Volvo 240 GLT Estate '88
Chrysler PT Cruiser '00
Honda ELEMENT '03
Honda ODYSSEY '03
Mazda MX-Crossport Concept '05
Renault AVANTIME '02

 

[trackripper123]

I reckon both Stagea wagons could be up in the higher class?

 

[XDesperado67]

Been thinking about the Drivers Choice point system and my suggestion would be a 5 point scale.
1=Nearly undrivable/worse than stock
2=Below Average/no better than stock
3=Average/some improvement on stock
4=Above average/greatly improved but still has some minor drawbacks
5=Outstanding/nearly flawless driving experience

While a larger scale can make for a finer shading of the individual scoring, it can also lead to more issues for the individual testers to contend with. A larger scale risks opening the testers up to more questions as to why tuner A got a 8 and tuner B only got a 7 despite comments that indicate both were above average tunes.

One of the good things with the DC in the last event was that the 3 choices for scoring were clearly defined making it fairly easy for the testers to assign their scores and back it up in their reviews on each one. The scale was probably a bit too narrow but making it overly large would make it more difficult to place an easy definition for each point on the scale.

As for how to incorporate the DC into the final scoring for an event that just becomes a matter of manipulating the numbers and the size of the DC scale doesn't matter.

As for a possible wagon shootout I agree that the 2 Stagea's belong in the upper group as do the 2 Mitsubishi's and the Caldina.
I'd also recommend dropping the Element (more of a SUV than a wagon or minivan), the BMW's and the PT Cruiser (hot hatchs not wagons really).