Flaws of the tyre model simulation

[JayRS200]

Seems like OP is not taking into account a lot of variables.

E.g what tyres, fuel load, TC settings, tarmac type and temp etc the real life times were set.

But I agree overall that a lot of the handling didn't feel right to me.

 

[jasguer]

So, my own two cents with a little bit of context first. I have lived in Wisconsin for the entirety of my 38 years. From the age of 16, I always drove front wheel drive cars because the were cheap and “good in the snow”. However, good in the snow also translates to bad for doing donuts. Doing donuts in a front wheel drive car, even on snow, is difficult unless you employ creative and effective use of the E-Brake. I was quite excited when I purchased a 1979 Toyota Corolla my senior year of high school. The 79 Corolla was a donut/drift machine; rear wheel drive with a 5 speed. I could do things in the Corolla way easier than I could with my previous car, a Ford Escort.

Most front wheel drive cars in GTS will do multiple rotations, even at low speeds, below 50-60 mph, on asphalt. Driving a front wheel drive car in GTS is akin to me going from my Ford Escort to the Corolla, just with out the drivetrain swap. Something is definitely not calculating correctly because there are times where driving almost any car in GTS is worse than driving a 79 Corolla in a Wisconsin blizzard.

 

[Lord Protector]

Seems like OP is not taking into account a lot of variables.

E.g what tyres, fuel load, TC settings, tarmac type and temp etc the real life times were set.

But I agree overall that a lot of the handling didn't feel right to me.

Tyres and TCS are mentioned in the OP. Quick summary:

I tested the cars with their default tyres, which should be their factory equipped tyres. However, even when using racing soft tyres, car fail to accelerate as fast as their real counterpart.

For TCS I set it to 1 because that's the fastest way to accelerate a high powered car in GTS. There is no way I'd accelerate faster without it and also it deletes another variable like me playing with the throttle.

As far as fuel load, tarmac type and temp go... I think outside temperature doesn't play any role in GTS. Obviously tarmac won't be very bad at a high speed circuit and fuel load?

Fuel tank in most cars, including the 700+bhp Charger Hellcat is in the back, more fuel load means there should be more weight in the rear, which coincidentally is the driven axle so that should theoretically make the car faster in acceleration. Still, we can reduce the weight of cars by 100 kilos I doubt it will make the car go more than 0.3 second, let alone 2 seconds, don't you? Still far way off.

 

[Ryan Dungey]

Alot of cars these days use launch control to get their fast 0-60 times etc if they don't use it they can't really achieve their 0-60 times. Cars like 720s for example I know it's not in the game but if it doesn't use launch control it spins through first and second gear. If gran turismo had launch control for cars that have it it would probably my help with the 0-60 times in game. For cars like the 650s in game you want to use SS as they are what's most comparable to a tyre that car would use in real life trofeo R tyres.

 

[Lord Protector]

Alot of cars these days use launch control to get their fast 0-60 times etc if they don't use it they can't really achieve their 0-60 times. Cars like 720s for example I know it's not in the game but if it doesn't use launch control it spins through first and second gear. If gran turismo had launch control for cars that have it it would probably my help with the 0-60 times in game. For cars like the 650s in game you want to use SS as they are what's most comparable to a tyre that car would use in real life trofeo R tyres.

Again, no, I already tried launching at lower rpms, it only makes cars accelerate slower. I know in real life it can help but no here.

 

[Sharpie]

Rss tires need more grip.

 

[tofuhero]

I was joking about Suzuka earlier, but is there any indication that the tarmacs of different circuits are actually modeled differently in the game?

 

[Ryan Dungey]

Again, no, I already tried launching at lower rpms, it only makes cars accelerate slower. I know in real life it can help but no here.

Ahh that's abit poo, could it be down to the tunes that the cars given as default? Maybe tweaking the setup of the default cars could give better results. I haven't watched the video as im low on data so I don't know if its already been spoke about.

 

[Blair mann]

Yeah I agree, I think the tyre model or something to do with it is pretty weird sometimes Mainly from launch. It is literally like driving on ice when you try and start from a stop without TC. Could you imagine if sport mode done standing starts it would literally be about what car can launch from the line best without having much wheel spin. Even when you are on the limit of grip their isn't much indication that you are about to slide and when you do it can be a bit over the top sometimes.

 

[Lord Protector]

Ahh that's abit poo, could it be down to the tunes that the cars given as default? Maybe tweaking the setup of the default cars could give better results. I haven't watched the video as im low on data so I don't know if its already been spoke about.

As much as I love one's enthusiasm to find a fix or a workaround for this problem, there is only one man who can fix this, or team rather.

And to answer your question, nope, this has nothing to do with setups.

 

[GTWelsh]

I think the OP is right, maybe a little over the top to suggest its the worst simcade title imo, given how most people I've seen prefer GTS to Forza, but it's definitely the worst sim, if you count it as a sim as far as driving physics go (and many don't, but that's fine).

It does a lot very right outside of the actual simulation and it's a nice middle ground where it's not too serious but serious enough for me, the online racing is great, best I've ever been part of! But I don't think it's a secret that it appears to have a pretty basic tyre model compared to the other more hardcore sims.

As an aside I'd love to give Project Cars 2 a go, to have the best of both worlds so I could go there to use better a tyre model, cars and tracks but on a pad and I fear the pad handling will be trash compared to how well GTS implements it. (I'd love a wheel, used to have one, used to PC sim race, but not feasible right now). I also have little interest in offline racing.

 

[Scaff]

I think the OP is right, maybe a little over the top to suggest its the worst simcade title imo, given how most people I've seen prefer GTS to Forza, but it's definitely the worst sim, if you count it as a sim as far as driving physics go (and many don't, but that's fine).

It does a lot very right outside of the actual simulation and it's a nice middle ground where it's not too serious but serious enough for me, the online racing is great, best I've ever been part of! But I don't think it's a secret that it appears to have a pretty basic tyre model compared to the other more hardcore sims.

I quite agree that PD seem to have firmly targeted a middle ground and has to a large degree hit the mark on that one.

As an aside I'd love to give Project Cars 2 a go, to have the best of both worlds so I could go there to use better a tyre model, cars and tracks but on a pad and I fear the pad handling will be trash compared to how well GTS implements it. (I'd love a wheel, used to have one, used to PC sim race, but not feasible right now). I also have little interest in offline racing.

Why not give the demo a go for PC2?

Have a look around the sub-forum for controller set-up (as a lot find it needs tweaking out of the box).

 

[ShiftingGears]

The middle ground approach definitely works for me. I haven't got a wheel and find Project CARS borderline unplayable.

 

[Blair mann]

I think the OP is right, maybe a little over the top to suggest its the worst simcade title imo, given how most people I've seen prefer GTS to Forza, but it's definitely the worst sim, if you count it as a sim as far as driving physics go (and many don't, but that's fine).

It does a lot very right outside of the actual simulation and it's a nice middle ground where it's not too serious but serious enough for me, the online racing is great, best I've ever been part of! But I don't think it's a secret that it appears to have a pretty basic tyre model compared to the other more hardcore sims.

As an aside I'd love to give Project Cars 2 a go, to have the best of both worlds so I could go there to use better a tyre model, cars and tracks but on a pad and I fear the pad handling will be trash compared to how well GTS implements it. (I'd love a wheel, used to have one, used to PC sim race, but not feasible right now). I also have little interest in offline racing.

Project cars 2 is ok on a controller I used to play it on one. I personally think PC2 was way harder to play on controller than PC1. The controls do need some tweaking to make it enjoyable but it is still hard to play. The main issue on controller is braking it is so hard to not lock the brakes on a controller because the small amount of travel on the triggers and because the braking in that game is just terrible. I even have a wheel now and still hate it because FFB sucks and the game is so buggy. But if it goes on sale it is worth the money because the amount of content.

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

I get the impression the default tyres are not a good model of what would be standard on the real car and you need to move up a level or two of softness to get something remotely right for a performance car. I mean, I don't think I could describe the stock tyre on most performance cars as 'hard'.

 

[Scaff]

Project cars 2 is ok on a controller I used to play it on one. I personally think PC2 was way harder to play on controller than PC1. The controls do need some tweaking to make it enjoyable but it is still hard to play. The main issue on controller is braking it is so hard to not lock the brakes on a controller because the small amount of travel on the triggers and because the braking in that game is just terrible. I even have a wheel now and still hate it because FFB sucks and the game is so buggy. But if it goes on sale it is worth the money because the amount of content.

Not a PC2 thread, so I will answer you in one.

 

[Stotty]

GT has always had issues with low speed traction... even on RS tyres, you needed to start in 2nd gear back in GT5P.

I get the impression the default tyres are not a good model of what would be standard on the real car and you need to move up a level or two of softness to get something remotely right for a performance car. I mean, I don't think I could describe the stock tyre on most performance cars as 'hard'.

Hard is a relative term... with racing tyres, all are just different levels of soft!

Lateral grip feels about right given road car lap times aren't way out for Nurb vs reality.

 

[PJTierney]

Okay, so based on what I’ve read here we have some insight into the game’s current tyre simulation model.

Rather than ask the question of if it can be “fixed” I want to point the discussion in another direction:

• Given the knowledge that we have, how can we use this information to drive faster in-game?

Are there certain driving habits and Assist settings that, taking this tyre simulation model into account, will make a driver go faster? Sport Mode races typically use SH or RH as standard, so let’s see what we can exploit with those.

Let’s ignore reality for a moment and treat this like a game, a game which most likely has an “optimal way of playing”.

CSA on strong and ABS on weak, no other aids on. Brake late and short shift on exit.

Sounds good to me, much more interested in practical advice than despairing about things that we have no influence over

 

[Haitauer]

I think this is due to too few variations of grip levels. Say gts has values for spin and no spin, where irl the slipping depends on how much of rotation the wheel has vs speed and if engine power and acceleration combined is increasing or decreasing this difference. It as hard to simulate as tire digging in gravel. I have read somewhere that to achieve best possible acceleration tc shouldnt be set to zero spin but x% spin vs acceleration instead.

 

[DeadCanDrive]

I have tried GTS beta before purchase and because of bad car handling i wasnt gonna buy it. In time of GTS release my friend had T150 with a stand to sell for 100 bucks so gave GTS a chance.

I have golded campaign and did almost 100 races online, currently im B/S. The case is i had to learn to drive somewhat again so i can do it in GTS. I dont know about tyre model but driving in this game does not feel natural for me. It feels like someone put butter on my tires. Force feedback just pulls the wheel not giving any hints what car is doing. The more i play the less i care about the game.

I have decided to give project cars 2 a go on PC and suddenly i have felt what car is doing, much more like IRL. Try it yourself if you can. It was just a better driving experience.

My point: GTS is just mediocre driving game. Either you like it or you dont. Polyphony wont change anything for better because they imagine GTS "simulation" in this particular way. We can discuss tire model, handling, suspension but only to kill some time on the web i belive.

 

[Scaff]

It as hard to simulate as tire digging in gravel.

It is, but as others are managing it that's not really a great argument.

I have read somewhere that to achieve best possible acceleration tc shouldnt be set to zero spin but x% spin vs acceleration instead.

Indeed, that's as tyres in reality generate the most grip when they are slipping slightly (as in slip angle and/or slip percentage), because rubber is basically weird stuff.

 

[Haitauer]

because rubber is basically weird stuff.

Being very scientific there Sir..

 

[JacksHerer]

After seeing the video it looked like a fun thing to try in PSVR, I have a dusty La Ferrari after all.

In the real video, he doesn't hit the redline because he short shifts before 4th gear, I'm guessing he has track tires and not road tires, and is in track mode. So I tried out sports hard, sports soft, racing hard, and tried traction control on and off.

I think GTS is pretty accurate, baring in mind I was heavy on the throttle. The cornering grip seemed about right for the speed.

 

[Lord Protector]

After seeing the video it looked like a fun thing to try in PSVR, I have a dusty Le Ferrari after all.

In the real video, he doesn't hit the redline because he short shifts before 4th gear, I'm guessing he has track tires and not road tires, and is in track mode. So I tried out sports hard, sports soft, racing hard, and tried traction control on and off.

I think GTS is pretty accurate, baring in mind I was heavy on the throttle. The cornering grip seemed about right for the speed.

GTS is only accurate in corners, right until the car starts to slide. Laferrari does 0-100kph in what? 3 seconds? Try it out yourself and be sure to tell us the results please.

 

[JacksHerer]

So 60mph in 3 seconds, I'll be back...

I think my lack of talent is letting the game down here.. I'm guessing launch control is used in real life though?

but, approx 3 seconds :
sports hard - 30mph
sports medium - 34mph
sports soft - 37mph
racing hard - 43mph
racing medium - 45mph
racing soft - 50mph
I forgot there are racing super soft doh!
racing soft with TCS - 55mph


second video - racing super soft
racing super soft - 60mph with TCS and ASM

 

[Scaff]

Being very scientific there Sir..

Some moan when I explain more, but this does cover the basics.

http://racingcardynamics.com/racing-tires-lateral-force/

 

[zzz_pt]

Today's race in the Viper is a prime example of the ridiculous tire model at its worst.

No ffb at all, car spins at 20% throttle sometimes and you basically have to make a decent lap based on muscle memory and visual input. That's a joke.

 

[Johnnypenso]

After seeing the video it looked like a fun thing to try in PSVR, I have a dusty La Ferrari after all.

In the real video, he doesn't hit the redline because he short shifts before 4th gear, I'm guessing he has track tires and not road tires, and is in track mode. So I tried out sports hard, sports soft, racing hard, and tried traction control on and off.

I think GTS is pretty accurate, baring in mind I was heavy on the throttle. The cornering grip seemed about right for the speed.

Everyone seems to get cornering speeds roughly correct but that is only one tiny aspect of a tire model/physics engine. They could even get it right in NFS or DriveClub if they wanted to, just by lowering the grip levels.

 

[JacksHerer]

yeh it's strange, I would have thought 0-60 would be easier to get right than cornering, but I don't have launch control in GTS.
I should have a look at an older car, the xj13 was certainly easier to keep traction in the tires when pulling away from stand still. that has a 3.3 0-60 time.

 

[Stotty]

Launch control IRL generally allows unskilled drivers to achieve decent 0-60's.

It's not normally used by car journo's when testing for ultimate 0-60... a skilled driver will get a faster launch than launch control.