FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[PzR Slim]

Seriously how stupid do you think we are to actually believe that. Huge being how much....20...50...100 that is still 0.0016%. GT gots its name and branding in the automotive world because it was an awesome series. Simple as.

I think you totally underestimate how disappointed many people are with GT5.

 

[Northstar]

Seriously how stupid do you think we are to actually believe that. Huge being how much....20...50...100 that is still 0.0016%. GT gots its name and branding in the automotive world because it was an awesome series. Simple as.

That's how most games work actually, most people buy a game, play through it once than sell it at gamestop or on ebay. Hence why GameStop has huge profits and online games die after a few months leaving only the people that are big fans of the game.

Forza 2 & 3 were the same way and I'm guessing 4 will be no different, it will be busy online for about 6 months than start dying off.

 

[Vaxxtx]

I'd say none at all if your goal was to compete for spots on the LB.

Corner entry and exit speeds and top speed on the back straight were the only useful data to me and by the 50th lap I usually knew them by heart.

And I do put an emphasis on LBs because its a cornerstone in Forza's gameplay design along with all the tuning options.

None of the tuners I knew did ever so much as bother with telemetry at all.

Interesting. I find it hard to tune a car without a good telemtry screen.

Then again, I dont care about flavor of the month or LB cars. Nope, I like what I like and the telemtry screen in FM is beyond awesome.

Of course, something good in FM has to be brushed off as "not important" enough, by some people.

 

[GT6mebe]

You are aware of how much more useful the telemetry is in Forza?

As far as setting a car up goes the 'data-logger' in GT is next to pointless, its not telemetry as its generally know (hence the reason its called a data-logger).

For set-up the telemetry in Forza knocks it into a corner.



Scaff

You are kidding me right. This is how telemetry is done my friend just like it is done in real life to analyse the lap time and how to improve...not necessarily the car.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I'd say none at all if your goal was to compete for spots on the LB.

Corner entry and exit speeds and top speed on the back straight were the only useful data to me and by the 50th lap I usually knew them by heart.

And I do put an emphasis on LBs because its a cornerstone in Forza's gameplay design along with all the tuning options.

None of the tuners I knew did ever so much as bother with telemetry at all.

Then you are not doing it right, nor are those tuners. Those of us who are using telemetry are using it to determine many things to help improve our times. Not pulling enough G's? How is the tire friction, which tire is lifting? Which tire width is giving you more friction? Is my suspension in the front holding me back from exiting that turn faster?

We all memorize the track. That isn't the question. What settings, what parts are going to optimize that time, and what is happening as I make those changes to improve it.

If people are interested in being hardcore, you will likely find them anally tweaking settings. You will have Smokey and the Bandits out there tearing up the track without tuning and adjusting, but those bandits are either not interested in the tweaks, or they could be tearing it up even faster if they look at what is happening with the car and what they could to to improve their car.

That is what those of us, who in REAL life do when we race as well.

You are kidding me right. This is how telemetry is done my friend just like it is done in real life to analyse the lap time and how to improve...not necessarily the car.

You are kidding, right? You do realize the difference between a data logger (a log of data that has been previous recorded), and LIVE telemetry.

 

[Spagetti69]

Don't see the point of telemetry in gt6.
You can't save a tune anyway.

 

[Vaxxtx]

You are kidding me right. This is how telemetry is done my friend just like it is done in real life to analyse the lap time and how to improve...not necessarily the car.

Wow, a data logger. Awesome possum.

Then you are not doing it right, nor are those tuners. Those of us who are using telemetry are using it to determine many things to help improve our times. Not pulling enough G's? How is the tire friction, which tire is lifting? Which tire width is giving you more friction? Is my suspension in the front holding me back from exiting that turn faster?

We all memorize the track. That isn't the question. What settings, what parts are going to optimize that time, and what is happening as I make those changes to improve it.

If people are interested in being hardcore, you will likely find them anally tweaking settings. You will have Smokey and the Bandits out there tearing up the track without tuning and adjusting, but those bandits are either not interested in the tweaks, or they could be tearing it up even faster if they look at what is happening with the car and what they could to to improve their car.

That is what those of us, who in REAL life do when we race as well.

👍

 

[Scaff]

You are kidding me right. This is how telemetry is done my friend just like it is done in real life to analyse the lap time and how to improve...not necessarily the car.

No I don't have a clue how it works in real life, I've only worked in the motor industry for a few decades and spent more hours on track and proving grounds than I can remember.

A data logger alone does not make telemetry.

You want to take a look at what Motec provide in the real world in this area and then compare which of the two (Forza or GT) comes closest to providing.

http://www.motec.com/i2/i2overview/


The info GT provides in also shown in Forza, however Forza then gives you a hell of a lot more on top of that. Care to tell me how I get tyre temp from the GT data logger for a particular corner?

This is what Motec can monitor (in real time):

Various sensors can be used to measure vital parameters of the engine and chassis. For example:

Wheel speeds

Lateral and longitudinal acceleration
Tyre temperatures
Brake pressures
Engine speed (RPM)
Engine temperature
Oil pressure
GPS

Driver input can also be measured. For example:

Throttle position
Braking force
Steering angle

Source - http://www.motec.com/aboutdata/dataoverview/

Care to guess which comes closer to providing that in real time or replay?



Scaff

 

[Luminis]

in the automotive world because it was an awesome series. Simple as.

Precisely, was. Once you got the name, that's that.

You are kidding me right. This is how telemetry is done my friend just like it is done in real life to analyse the lap time and how to improve...not necessarily the car.

You realize that, in real life, there's a lot of data being tracked on a race car, no?

That includes (but is not limited to) g-forces, tyre temperature, oil temperatur, chassis movement, tyre pressure, downforce and so on and so forth.

Is there any sort of info that GT5's Data Logger displays that FM's telemetry doesn't?

 

[ItsHim]

Then you are not doing it right, nor are those tuners. Those of us who are using telemetry are using it to determine many things to help improve our times. Not pulling enough G's? How is the tire friction, which tire is lifting? Which tire width is giving you more friction? Is my suspension in the front holding me back from exiting that turn faster?

If people are interested in being hardcore, you will likely find them anally tweaking settings.

That is what those of us, who in REAL life do when we race as well.

Don't confuse a game with RL, the same is true for GT btw, though the tuning options are very limited, but still it's not totally watertight.

I had my 2 minutes of fame with FM2. Put the untunable Astra in B class on the top 100 LB on Mugello. Though I cheated and chose the arcade 'endurance' run option which hardly any hotlapper ran at all.

Couldn't have done it sticking to telemetry. Though it was still a true drivers car which I'm still kind of proud of.

 

[prymet1me]

I think you totally underestimate how disappointed many people are with GT5.

I was VERY disappointed with GT5. The game got so boring it almost seemed like a chore to play it just cause I saw it sitting there. Made good use of it with a trade in bonus at best buy. I still have my copy of FM2 and I still play 3 every week.

 

[zr1chris]

No I don't have a clue how it works in real life, I've only worked in the motor industry for a few decades and spent more hours on track and proving grounds than I can remember.

A data logger alone does not make telemetry.

You want to take a look at what Motec provide in the real world in this area and then compare which of the two (Forza or GT) comes closest to providing.

http://www.motec.com/i2/i2overview/


The info GT provides in also shown in Forza, however Forza then gives you a hell of a lot more on top of that. Care to tell me how I get tyre temp from the GT data logger for a particular corner?

This is what Motec can monitor (in real time):

Various sensors can be used to measure vital parameters of the engine and chassis. For example:

Wheel speeds

Lateral and longitudinal acceleration
Tyre temperatures
Brake pressures
Engine speed (RPM)
Engine temperature
Oil pressure
GPS

Driver input can also be measured. For example:

Throttle position
Braking force
Steering angle

Source - http://www.motec.com/aboutdata/dataoverview/

Care to guess which comes closer to providing that in real time or replay?



Scaff

Here is a small tidbit in this video for you Scaff to help you prove your point.
http://www.trackvision.net/MoTeC_i2.shtml

 

[ItsHim]

The info GT provides in also shown in Forza, however Forza then gives you a hell of a lot more on top of that. Care to tell me how I get tyre temp from the GT data logger for a particular corner?

how many cars on the LBs of Forza then show the 'perfect' telemetry readout?

If it serves no purpose (coming out on top of the competition) then it's nothing more than eye candy to me.

 

[Scaff]

Here is a small tidbit in this video for you Scaff to help you prove your point.
http://www.trackvision.net/MoTeC_i2.shtml

Nice find.

I do love the the almost presumed bias that my opinion is given, despite the fact that my signature clearly links to the GT4 tuning guides I wrote that easily show the hundreds of hour I have put into tuning in the GT series.

After all its not like my opinion could be based on experience, hell I will even quote myself here:

Setting camber is something of a black art as it is only possible to estimate the effect and only through testing will the correct setting be discovered.

The reason why?

The main tool for setting camber (in the real world and a sim) is tyre temp measured across the inner, middle and outer, something that is simply not possible in GT.


I've invested more time than the majority here in the GT series and anyone who can say they are 100% happy with the data provided for 'telemetry' in GT is, in my opinion, kidding themselves.

how many cars on the LBs of Forza then show the 'perfect' telemetry readout?

If it serves no purpose (coming out on top of the competition) then it's nothing more than eye candy to me.

That's because telemetry is a means to an end, not the end itself. No such thing as 'perfect' telemetry, its a tool to show how a car is handling and the forces acting upon it, thus allowing it to be set-up for a particular drivers preferences.


Scaff

 

[jasjeet]

Ill just say it:
Forza and GT's Telemetry is pointless.
GTs is just too slow to use, not real time, minimal information. Doesnt help with tuning.
Forza's is nice to have, mostly just eyecandy, the only useful thing is the tyre temps for camber adjustment and springs for ride height/stiffness.

But LB cars are not using telemetry to get fast lap times, but clever and usually unrealistic setups which the telemetry will flash red in most cases.

 

[Spagetti69]

how many cars on the LBs of Forza then show the 'perfect' telemetry readout?

If it serves no purpose (coming out on top of the competition) then it's nothing more than eye candy to me.

A good tuner doesn't equal a better driver.
A better driver doesn't equal a good tuner.

Put em both together and bam.

I had the honour of daveyskills handing my arse to me in a stock hopper.
All of us actually, in the same lobby.
He could probably beat you in a lower class car. No disrespect I'm generalising there.
Give him a proper tune he's only going to get better.

 

[jasjeet]

Daveyskills was probably driving one handed drinking a beer on the side lol

 

[Spagetti69]

Daveyskills was probably driving one handed drinking a beer on the side lol

Nice guy though. Very modest.

 

[zr1chris]

Daveyskills was probably driving one handed drinking a beer on the side lol

Yeah that guy has some serious talent when it comes to hotlapping.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Interesting. I find it hard to tune a car without a good telemtry screen.

Then again, I dont care about flavor of the month or LB cars. Nope, I like what I like and the telemtry screen in FM is beyond awesome.

Of course, something good in FM has to be brushed off as "not important" enough, by some people.

GT’s data logger has been brushed off as being useless first and still is by some people. Forza’s is not important to me compared to what GT offers to me as a driver who likes fixed car setup leaderboards. However I do understand it will be useful for others and I’m not brushing it off.

Then you are not doing it right, nor are those tuners. Those of us who are using telemetry are using it to determine many things to help improve our times. Not pulling enough G's? How is the tire friction, which tire is lifting? Which tire width is giving you more friction? Is my suspension in the front holding me back from exiting that turn faster?

We all memorize the track. That isn't the question. What settings, what parts are going to optimize that time, and what is happening as I make those changes to improve it.

If people are interested in being hardcore, you will likely find them anally tweaking settings. You will have Smokey and the Bandits out there tearing up the track without tuning and adjusting, but those bandits are either not interested in the tweaks, or they could be tearing it up even faster if they look at what is happening with the car and what they could to to improve their car.

That is what those of us, who in REAL life do when we race as well.



You are kidding, right? You do realize the difference between a data logger (a log of data that has been previous recorded), and LIVE telemetry.

Unless you are racing at a high level series, I doubt you will be getting as much telemetry data as in Forza in real life. Most of improvement is down to feel from the driver and how to get car setup better through logic if we are talking about amateur racing.

No I don't have a clue how it works in real life, I've only worked in the motor industry for a few decades and spent more hours on track and proving grounds than I can remember.

A data logger alone does not make telemetry.

You want to take a look at what Motec provide in the real world in this area and then compare which of the two (Forza or GT) comes closest to providing.

http://www.motec.com/i2/i2overview/


The info GT provides in also shown in Forza, however Forza then gives you a hell of a lot more on top of that. Care to tell me how I get tyre temp from the GT data logger for a particular corner?

This is what Motec can monitor (in real time):

Various sensors can be used to measure vital parameters of the engine and chassis. For example:

Wheel speeds

Lateral and longitudinal acceleration
Tyre temperatures
Brake pressures
Engine speed (RPM)
Engine temperature
Oil pressure
GPS

Driver input can also be measured. For example:

Throttle position
Braking force
Steering angle

Source - http://www.motec.com/aboutdata/dataoverview/

Care to guess which comes closer to providing that in real time or replay?



Scaff

The data GT does supply is in the format Motec does show as a graph: http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4245/telemetryv2xq2.jpg

It is mainly useful for drivers to compare themselves against others in the same car or others if they can access the data. I’m hoping GT does add stuff like tyre temperature though in telemetry and in physics as good as it is in rFactor. You can feel the tyres are overheating when driving and can get them in optimal temperature to do a decent lap. That will add a lot to even fixed leaderboard cars.

Ferrari Virtual Academy also supplies the data I’m mainly interested in as a driver so there is no GT bias here.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8571/fvatracevsmassa.jpg

This is just driver telemetry, does not make it any less useful than other parts of telemetry data depending on who is making use of it like I said before.

I thought I'd add this even if you already seen it before. Shows you that the data logger is quite advanced in the game: http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/news/d5189.html .

I was VERY disappointed with GT5. The game got so boring it almost seemed like a chore to play it just cause I saw it sitting there. Made good use of it with a trade in bonus at best buy. I still have my copy of FM2 and I still play 3 every week.

I am disappointed with Forza 3 and so far Forza 4 (Going by demo). I won’t be trading in FM3 though as I see no reason to and that goes for most of the games I buy. Main problems for me are traction is very high and cars are very easy to keep in control even when driving recklessly.

Here is a small tidbit in this video for you Scaff to help you prove your point.
http://www.trackvision.net/MoTeC_i2.shtml

This is shown in GT5 too unless I’m missing something?

Ill just say it:
Forza and GT's Telemetry is pointless.
GTs is just too slow to use, not real time, minimal information. Doesnt help with tuning.
Forza's is nice to have, mostly just eyecandy, the only useful thing is the tyre temps for camber adjustment and springs for ride height/stiffness.

But LB cars are not using telemetry to get fast lap times, but clever and usually unrealistic setups which the telemetry will flash red in most cases.

GT5’s useful for drivers trying to improve.

Nice guy though. Very modest.

I think this is an interesting comment he made at his first GT tournament. He has played other games a lot more like the Forza series.

"I feel that GT5 is the best racing game out for the console at this time. It is fun to play on both the wheel and the control pad, which a few games have found difficult to achieve. The single player aspect of the game is a lot less boring than its main rivals too. It is also being constantly updated by the developers trying to make improvements. They listen to community ideas and try to implement them with a new update, which no other development team does...ever!"

 

[BryCivicSi]

So, anyone know which version of the 'Ring' is closer to real life. I've now played the F3 and GT5 versions and there are a significant amount of differences.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

So, anyone know which version of the 'Ring' is closer to real life. I've now played the F3 and GT5 versions and there are a significant amount of differences.

GT5's is a lot more closer to real life than Forza's version.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Unless you are racing at a high level series, I doubt you will be getting as much telemetry data as in Forza in real life.

Luckily, you don't speak for all of us. Again, as Scaff has so kindly pointed out, the telemetry in Forza dwarfs GTs telemetry. Not that GT's is BAD, it's good. Just needs to track more live feedback.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Luckily, you don't speak for all of us. Again, as Scaff has so kindly pointed out, the telemetry in Forza dwarfs GTs telemetry. Not that GT's is BAD, it's good. Just needs to track more live feedback.

I know I don't. So you say you go racing in real life, what telemetry data do you have access to?

Dwarfs for who though? Can I compare my driver telemetry directly to someone elses in Forza?

 

[Bogie 19th]

I know I don't. So you say you go racing in real life, what telemetry data do you have access to?

I no longer race in real life (been years). In my days, we didn't have the telemetry data catch we have now. I was speaking on behalf of the other racers here in general.

Dwarfs for who though?

No specific person. Just as in the number of live features tracked and fed back to the driver during racing or testing.

Can I compare my driver telemetry directly to someone elses in Forza?

Now THAT would be interesting. A question I do not know the answer to. It would be interesting to say, get a 458 on the same track, in both games and compare those stats.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I no longer race in real life (been years). In my days, we didn't have the telemetry data catch we have now. I was speaking on behalf of the other racers here in general.



No specific person. Just as in the number of live features tracked and fed back to the driver during racing or testing.



Now THAT would be interesting. A question I do not know the answer to. It would be interesting to say, get a 458 on the same track, in both games and compare those stats.

The way you worded it sounded like you race for real now and also that you use telemetry data to improve setups. Interesting that you are speaking on behalf of other racers here in general given your last comment.

I was on about in the same game but between the two will be interesting. I don't think Forza has any telemetry graph output though.

 

[BryCivicSi]

gt5's is a lot more closer to real life than forza's version.

thanks

 

[Bogie 19th]

The way you worded it sounded like you race for real now and also that you use telemetry data to improve setups. Interesting that you are speaking on behalf of other racers here in general given your last comment..

You interpreted it wrong. I am not speaking on behalf of the other gamers here that mentioned that they raced. I am stating that telemetry data (though mine was only a log back in my days) is used by racers around the world, including people that race...here at GTPlanet.

Here nor there, you are just spinning this argument for no reason. We were making a point that Forza has more live telemetry data that you can use to improve your driving than GT does. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you want to talk about a DATALOG with graphical representations of RECORDED telemetry data, well that is a different topic. Something that will be very discussed in the matter of seconds...because Forza does not have that. The live telemetry data in Forza is the same data you will see in the replay. Forza won't let you over lap the competing cars to compare.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

thanks

No problem.

You interpreted it wrong. I am not speaking on behalf of the other gamers here that mentioned that they raced. I am stating that telemetry data (though mine was only a log back in my days) is used by racers around the world, including people that race...here at GTPlanet.

Here nor there, you are just spinning this argument for no reason. We were making a point that Forza has more live telemetry data that you can use to improve your driving than GT does. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you want to talk about a DATALOG with graphical representations of RECORDED telemetry data, well that is a different topic. Something that will be very discussed in the matter of seconds...because Forza does not have that. The live telemetry data in Forza is the same data you will see in the replay. Forza won't let you over lap the competing cars to compare.

What am I meant to interpret from you saying this?:

"I was speaking on behalf of the other racers here in general."

You are saying the opposite now. I'm not spinning anything.

I did say it is used in real life, however I don't think most people who race here have as detailed telemetry information as Forza has live unless they racing in a reasonable or high level series, one that requires probably at least sponsorship.

I think Forza has more live data to get an idea while driving on how to improve your setup. Both games point out when you are overusing your tyres. GT5's is more primitive.

In real life, the data is logged and drivers and engineers analyse this data on how to improve. Driver feedback can be more important than just telemetry data as well. That is how car setups are improved in real life. However there can be settings changeable for the driver in the car to improve lap time but I don't think that relates to Forza as I don't think you can do that. You can in GT. Live data will be useful in real life for say the engineer to spot something going wrong or overheating problems. It can help the driver to an extent if it is tyre or brake heat issues which the driver can then manage.

 

[KreepaEvox]

The only series that even gets close to all that datalogging to actually make sense is for F1, ect. With an actual engineer to actually interpret it to the driver. I don't see many F1 drivers here do you?

Show me an instance in which that datalogger has helped YOU tune a car, or be millisecondly faster on any track