shintastic48
(Banned)
- 129
- shiny48
That is the exact reason why the lower form of racing guys should know the data. They don't have people payed to know it.
FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)
- Thread starter Scaff
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That is the exact reason why the lower form of racing guys should know the data. They don't have people payed to know it.
- 7,663
- Pasadena, MD
- Minty TS
So because it's usually only available to F1 drivers, means it's useless to anyone else?
- 1,391
- Chicago
- Silberc
- Silberc
There is a lot of people who don't know about racing in real life....
Also, GT5 is a simulator, until something isnt right, then it's just a game?
Also, GT5 is a simulator, until something isnt right, then it's just a game?
- 28,352
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- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
It's just a game anyway.
I do know what you're getting at though.
I do know what you're getting at though.
- 1,328
i agree, when i was racing i soaked up alot back of the envelop calculations which would help make setup choices when there's no engineer around. There are sites which explains the basic of spring frequency etc which can be very useful. on the subject though both fm3 and gt's telemetry have limitations, forza has useful information such as live camber and suspension travel, but needs a recorded timeline version for better analysis. gt's is more for driving improvments rather than setup work, which again isnt that useful unless you can overlay other's data over it.
- 8,452
- Rockay City
I guess it all depends on what you use the data for. If you have a given car setup, and want to compare/improve driving, GT5's logger is sufficient. If you have a given driver and want to compare/improve car setup, you need something like Forza, Shift 2 or Motec (the latter can be used in conjunction with various pc sims too BTW).
A logger or live telemetry is not that important if you have very few and limited tuning options, since you can just use trial and error and it won't take up a whole lot of time. But with more complicated options and combinations, having live telemetry at your disposal is a lot more efficient. It's the difference between spending a whole night running laps and watching replays, making changes and repeating that, or just watching it happen as you go in a single lap, making the changes on the fly.
But in the world of the interwebz, there is just black and white of course, with no shades of grey in between.
A logger or live telemetry is not that important if you have very few and limited tuning options, since you can just use trial and error and it won't take up a whole lot of time. But with more complicated options and combinations, having live telemetry at your disposal is a lot more efficient. It's the difference between spending a whole night running laps and watching replays, making changes and repeating that, or just watching it happen as you go in a single lap, making the changes on the fly.
It's a game and it's a simulator. Just like Forza, or Shift (2). However, each focuses on different aspects of racing/driving, and executes certain aspects really well and certain others really crappy.
But in the world of the interwebz, there is just black and white of course, with no shades of grey in between.
- 713
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Have I been missing something, does GT5 allow you to overlay different drivers/laps on the same timeline?
As more of a driver then tuner, I would jump at the chance to have a proper datalogger, I had high hopes for GT5's, but all I can do is replay the race in it, I couldn't see where to overlay multiple laps on top of each other, or compare mine to another drivers to see where I'm losing time etc..
I find as a driver, as people are saying, there is little in FM3's telemetry to help me as a driver, although peak grip is occasionally handy to see if I'm not maxing it out when I need to be on mid-corner/exiting..
As more of a driver then tuner, I would jump at the chance to have a proper datalogger, I had high hopes for GT5's, but all I can do is replay the race in it, I couldn't see where to overlay multiple laps on top of each other, or compare mine to another drivers to see where I'm losing time etc..
I find as a driver, as people are saying, there is little in FM3's telemetry to help me as a driver, although peak grip is occasionally handy to see if I'm not maxing it out when I need to be on mid-corner/exiting..
- 770
Ghosts are the best thing to help out your driving.
Scaff
Moderator
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- ScaffUK
Not useless, just very limited for set-up work in comparison to what Forza offers.
Can you honestly say that you would not want the GT data logger to also show all the info that Forza does?
Quite simply not true at all, Motec supply to all levels of motorsport and to be honest getting tyre temps across the three parts of a tyre is standard at all levels of motorsport, yes at grassroots you need to get the car in the pits and use a temp probe (which is dirt cheap).
However even production road cars log a huge amount of data and this can (with the right tools) be interrogated.
Real time displays in my own car:
Boost and Power Readings
G-meter
However the range of information is displays info on is very limited in comparison to what is available in the real world.
GT's tool shows you were you are fast and slow, what it doesn't give you is a lot of info as to why.
Not even remotely true.
Telemetry, both real time and recorded is used at all levels of motorsport, and more than enough guides will show you how to read and interpret it.
The Motec site I linked to even provides details and they will also train users as well.
Game or real world?
Scaff
shintastic48
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- shiny48
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I do use the ghosts, but while that can help learn the lines or help in some trial and error changes, I'd still like to see overlaid telemetry of steering angle/throttle etc, so I address the differences on a technical level.. in fact both would be perfect for me!
- 6,948
- United Kingdom
The data logging in GT5 can be made sense of by any driver and should be available for most racing series. The main details are speed, throttle and brake. Forza's data however is much more what an engineer will deal with than a driver and is usually not accessible for most unless you are running a lot of sensors on the car, a bit like F1 levels.
I don't really tune a car but if I used the data logger for that I would look out for the difference in gearing and top speed of the fastest driver and make changes to my setup. If I'm having to back out of throttle a lot due to the car being too twitchy then I will add more downforce and possibly change weight distrubution as wel do some suspension tweaks.
About making me a faster driver, the data logger has made me consistent as it shows easily where I'm doing well and where I'm not compared to the faster drivers in say the Mercedes Seasonal Event. The video replay does help a lot as well. It helped me bring my average sector splits to be like a tenth quicker. Never managed to pull of a lap I was happy with but that is more due to mentality and skill reasons going into the final two corners.
It does allow you to overlay another drivers lap over yor best lap. Can be handy for example the recent Mercedes seasonal event. How did you do on that by the way, I noticed you mentioned you preferred Forza in terms of getting more out of the car or something like that?
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
Did you miss the picture of a road car above that provides the driver (me) with real-time lateral and longitudinal g readings?
This kind of data is not only the preserve of F1 and has not been for a long time.
The reason its so in your face in F1 is because they allow on the fly adjustments to be made to the car (by the pits or driver depending on what it is), which is not permitted in most other series.
However data far in excess of what is provided in GT is available either as recorded or real-time data at almost all levels of motorsport.
Scaff
- 1,534
- Bazra1985
- xSHAx BaZrA
When did they update GT5 with fully adjustable gear ratio's?
As far as I was concerned (going by the last time I played it) GT5 was incapable of such a thing.
shintastic48
(Banned)
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- shiny48
- 713
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Wow.. that's good news.. I'll have to go take a peek at that.. That is something FM could really do with.
The SLS challenge, I just made it a target to beat DC's time, once I'd done that by a reasonably margin I packed it in, the amount of corner cutting was getting silly, and I've not revisited it with the fixed track limits..
In the spirit of the Vs thread, despite many good things about GT5, I don't find hotlapping as rewarding for two main reasons
- The lack of 'feel' for grip through FFB, all I get is the track feedback, but there is a real numbness to the FFB when it comes to grip and what the tyres are doing..
- I find the physics a little too hollow, the top level car rotation and general feel is great (still love it), but the tyre/grip transitions and other things just feels subdued and to some extents a little too prescribed..
In comparison, I find the FM4 high level car behaviour to be again much softer then I expect it should be, but when driving it on/close to the limit, I can feel much more about what the tyres are doing in regards to grip/slip. The transitional behaviour feels much deeper in the number of things that seem to affect it, even effects like torque steer seem prevalent.. so I get more personal reward from having to manage it all to keep the optimal momentum etc..
I'm sure a lot of it is personal, I also like iRacing (My personal PC favourite, but also like the Simbin titles, somehow reverting back to Race07 as my default), I find iRacing also has more grip / tyre feel and transitional feedback then GT, in fact FM seems much closer to iRacing in that regard, but then GT has the more vicious high level car feel that iRacing also has..
Then we have my personal track/car experience.. it doesn't fit any game so far.. they all have reasonable behavior once you cross the limit, progressively slide, I think we had 3 people swap ends in my sessions, all did it slowly and gracefully.. In comparison, iRacing/GT5 feel way too vicious in that regard, and FM feels too forgiving (still).. to my eyes, sims have a long way to go still until they replicate what I expect from relatively normal road cars (Fastest as I keep mentioning is a 450+BHP E39 M5.. )
- 6,948
- United Kingdom
I agree with that. I did mention it would be good to have both and hope for it to be included for the next update as it would be good for tuners or people who like seeing numbers.Not useless, just very limited for set-up work in comparison to what Forza offers.
Can you honestly say that you would not want the GT data logger to also show all the info that Forza does?
Quite simply not true at all, Motec supply to all levels of motorsport and to be honest getting tyre temps across the three parts of a tyre is standard at all levels of motorsport, yes at grassroots you need to get the car in the pits and use a temp probe (which is dirt cheap).
However even production road cars log a huge amount of data and this can (with the right tools) be interrogated.
Real time displays in my own car:
Boost and Power Readings
G-meter
However the range of information is displays info on is very limited in comparison to what is available in the real world.
GT's tool shows you were you are fast and slow, what it doesn't give you is a lot of info as to why.
Scaff
I was trying to get the idea across that most people who post on here are not racing at a high level motorsport and maybe more grassroots. I wonder what data Chris Zoechling has available to him as in does he have tyre temperatures and brake temperature data access. He is probably the highest level of motorsport driver that posts here regularly I know.
I agree cars do have a lot of data, you can even check tyre pressures and also there are engine diagnostics going on in the car all the time so it knows if anything has gone wrong and is overheating. GT5 does have a basic G-meter reading though. PD for the GT-R implemented a lot of visual live telemetry so we know they have the skills to implement this. Hopefully it will be in the game soon.
It does show most of the information in that Motec graph though.
You can understand the why through watching the replay at the same time as looking at the data. You can see where going on the power slightly earlier can maybe gain that extra tenth to bridge the gap in one of the sectors.
I did not see your post until after posting. The data you posted I agree can be available for most, you can add it to more or less every car. I’m on about things like tyre friction, suspension travel data being available.
I did mention on the fly adjustments a few posts back that you can’t do it in Forza but you can do basic stuff in GT.
I do agree about data in excess of GT does provide is available across almost all motorsports. It is mainly data important for drivers to compare themselves to their teammates.
The event is now closed though. Corner cutting did not improve time by that much, around 3 tenths roughly. The fastest time in the end was 1:14.088 . I actually did attend the actual event, and think I would have done well if I got picked instead of my brother who does not even play the game. We both entered a minute apart, if I only had the luck. I did finish second fastest in the UK in the seasonal special event, it would have been impossible for me to beat the 1:14.088 set by the fastest person in the UK and it is the fastest time set in the world on this event too.
I’m a bit the opposite, one of the things I like about GT5 is hotlapping and like the feel for grip through the FFB.
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- 672
- Toulouse
- TheHBK
- HBK Live
I very much agree with this !
I don't have track experience, but contrary to popular belief, race cars (even more street cars) don't swap ends *that* violently when losing control most of the time. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it seems a bit exaggerated in GT5 and iRacing (which I both played).
- 1,534
- Bazra1985
- xSHAx BaZrA
You can't do it in Forza 3 but we dont know about Forza 4 yet.
If your looking for realism - when besides F1 can you change settings on the fly of a racecar? Minus maybe if it has electronic dampening controls.
You can tune a car in Forza before the start any race (after the race loads up, you dont have to keep going back to the game menu).
You see this is where Forza really does come out on top above GT - with the confirmation laps etc, if you go off the track / cut corners / use slipstream / even your first lap after an unconfirmed lap has a little triangle on it to say its not a confirmed lap time because one of the above reasons.
You can actually see who has earned the lap time and not cheated/exploited.
And I prefer hotlapping in Forza - it feels more rewarding, especially with full leaderboard times for every track then splits down to car class and drivetrain type. GT5 just cant offer that.
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You can change brake bias on F1 cars on the fly though in GT5. It is realistic depending on what car you are using it on.
You can also tune cars in GT5 without having to go back to the game menu as you put it.
I don't think that is where Forza comes out on top, just even. I know exactly when my lap is invalid in GT5, when the lap time turns red. GT5 does not allow red laps to be updated to the leaderboards so all lap times are earned and not cheated or exploited given the confines of track the game allows.
I prefer leaderboards in GT5P and I hope the update brings that to GT5 in the new update considering that GT5P just recently got taken down. Hotlapping in Forza will not be rewarding as fixed setup leaderboards for me.
- 1,534
- Bazra1985
- xSHAx BaZrA
What leaderboards in GT5? Just in the seasonals? I wouldnt waste my time, I like overall leaderboards that were promised but never delivered.
I'd never waste my time on a game in hope of updates, its wrong - GT5 has had enough time from me, even if the update is absolutely amazing its too late - I dont buy games and from day one sit and wait on updates to make them better (unless of course its minimalistic error fixing and done in an acceptable period of time). It should have been right since day one content promised like leaderboards should have been delivered - not added on a year later.
Hotlapping in Forza is always going to be much more rewarding as you can check your place in the world leaderboards for the car you have just built and tuned and tested.
When you build a car in GT5 all you can go on is your own times and try to beat your own best times, once you have reached your limit you cant compare with anyone or check the best times or your friends times.
When a bunch of GTP members want to compare times they could just check friends leaderboards to compare between each other - GT5 doesnt offer that luxury unless its a seasonal event.
Whereas with Forza you can choose any track and car combo and hotlap it knowing your times are recorded and people can see you were in a certain car, class and drivetrain. How can hot lapping in GT5 compare to that.
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
Even on road cars the basics of this can be present, my own Alfa allows me to changes between three settings that affect how the throttle mapping, turbo, stability and traction control function.
Its one of the areas I love in GT and would certainly like to see in FM.
The demo does show that in the rivals mode at the very least this is the case, with invalid laps shown with a warning triangle (both on the leaderboards and on you time in the HUD). The leaderboards are also split so that valid laps will always rank higher than invalid laps.
I have to say that even from a short play with the Rivals mode it trumps fixed leaderboards for me. That it picks the friend who is closest to my time and loads the ghost of their run for me to drive against and keeps doing so as I improve works incredibly well.
That GT took a step back from GT5P in terms of leaderboards was a strange choice for me and they now have a lot of catching up to do to match what FM4 seems to be offering (and Autolog in the Shift series).
Scaff
- 8,452
- Rockay City
Define 'on-the-fly'. With all the different tuning options available, it would always require a menu IMO. In Shift 2 for example, you can change the car settings 'on the fly', but you still have to go into a menu. The car will remain where it is on the track though, so no need to reload/restart the session. When you get back to the car, things like tire temps will be reset, so you will have to warm up again. Also, you can only tune during a tuning session (tuning takes place outside of events). So you can't change the setup on the fly while halfway in a race.
I found that a very elegant solution; you have to tune and setup the car in a separate session, but you can do so very quickly with the live telemetry and 'on-the-fly' changing (very handy if you want to spend your precious spare time with racing rather than tuning). Then you save the setup and go to the event (offline or online) you want to use it in. The game auto-selects your saved setup based on the car and track.
Personally, I could do without on-the-fly changing, but I would really use the live telemetry in order to prevent trial-and-error.
EDIT: Not having played the demo: is Rivals mode similar to EA's Autolog?
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
NLxAROSA
Forza 3 is the same.
Also when installing upgrades and parts. Benchmark text will tell you 0-60, breaking distances, lateral G's and more.
Nice feature.
- 8,452
- Rockay City
I know, but I replied to your question of when on-the-fly tuning would be realistic. I think it depends on the implementation. If on-the-fly is implemented like: being able to change every option while driving the car (like brake bias etc. in GT5/GT5P): no. If it's an implementation similar to S2 (or F3) where you need to go into a menu (but still able to tune very quickly): much more.
shintastic48
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- shiny48
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