FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[zr1chris]

We you to apply the same criteria you have used to the FM3 list, you would see a good 30% reduction in numbers.

Both car list have a good share of duping, just in different areas, and as such neither should be held up as innocent in that regard.

Scaff

I think 30% is an exaggeration. I think its more like 15%-20% and GT5 is close to 50%. No question GT5 has waaayyyy more duplications.

 

[dzidza]

I think 30% is an exaggeration. I think its more like 15%-20% and GT5 is close to 50%. No question GT5 has waaayyyy more duplications.

How can you say they are duplicates???? The cars only share the same name. EU cars are not the same as JP or US, unless there is a way to compare their in game stats (handling, acceleration etc.)

I would like you to create a list and show me 500 duplicates or 50-ish% in GT5.

 

[cuco33]

Oh GT has without a doubt (by how much would depend entirely on the very subjective 'what exactly is a dupe), and I certainly didn't want to imply anything different.

The reason for my post, is that while many quite rightly raise this issue about GT, they often forget that for certain cars FM can be just as guilty (just not by the same percentage overall.

One great example from FM is:

2008 Porsche #2 Gruppe Orange Racing 911 GT3 Cup
2005 Porsche #55 Applied Materials 911 GT3 Cup
2005 Porsche #66 AXA Racing 911 GT3 Cup
2006 Porsche #82 Red Bull 911 GT3 Cup
2005 Porsche #31 Peterson-White Lightning 911 GT3-RSR
2008 Porsche #45 Flying Lizard 911 GT3-RSR
2005 Porsche #5 XBOX 360 911 GT3-RSR
2007 Porsche #80 Flying Lizard 911 GT3-RSR

and

2008 Ferrari #71 Tafel Racing F430GT
2008 Ferrari #90 Farnbacher Racing F430GT
2006 Ferrari #62 Risi Competizione F430GT

and

2009 Ford #5 Ford Performance Racing FG Falcon
2009 Ford #9 Stone Brothers Racing FG Falcon
2009 Ford #25 Britek Motorsport FG Falcon

and

2009 Holden #39 Supercheap Auto Racing Commodore VE
2009 Holden #51 Sprint Gas Racing Commodore VE
2009 Holden #33 Garry Rogers Team Commodore VE
2009 Holden #2 Toll Holden Racing Team Commodore VE



All of which are listed as separate cars on the FM3 car list, but lets be honest quite a bit of either identical duping (in the case of the Holden and Ford) or as near as damn it for the 911's and Ferrari's, is going on.

It could be argued that the above is actually 5 clearly different cars, rather than the 18 listed.

I more than acknowledge that GTs scale is bigger (and more focused to road cars), but occasionally Forza is described as not suffering from the same issue and that's quite clearly not the case.


Scaff

Duplicates are across both franchises and I'll fully agree that GT5 is far more guilty of this than Forza is, but that's not saying that Forza is innocent of this by any means. They too are guilty of padding numbers up a bit, just not as bad as PD has done with GT5..

Just wanted to make a quick correction Scaff. The 911 RSR is a different animal than a GT3 Cup car. A lot of the models were probably reused aside from new bumpers/spoilers and the widebody of the RSR. I'm sure some reusing of model bits were done but they are different cars. 911 GT3 is an S class car whereas the 911 RSR is an R3. Power and weights are different too. In both examples they have some duplicates like you mentioned. GT5's list though has WAY too many Skylines, Miatas, 3000GTs, RX7s, etc and everything about them is the same. Most have same weight, power, torque, everything really and only bits that are different are color, year or some special edition of some sorts. The car is still the exact same padded one. I mean look at how many Miatas and Skylines there are and most aren't different models at all.

 

[Scaff]

I think 30% is an exaggeration. I think its more like 15%-20% and GT5 is close to 50%. No question GT5 has waaayyyy more duplications.

I did say if the same standard was applied, because the list that rate GT5 as close to 50% dupes does class a good number as dupes that are not.

Once again its down to both defining dupes and applying the exact same standard to both, and unless that's done then the number are not worth a damn.

Just wanted to make a quick correction Scaff. The 911 RSR is a different animal than a GT3 Cup car. A lot of the models were probably reused aside from new bumpers/spoilers and the widebody of the RSR. I'm sure some reusing of model bits were done but they are different cars. 911 GT3 is an S class car whereas the 911 RSR is an R3. Power and weights are different too. In both examples they have some duplicates like you mentioned. GT5's list though has WAY too many Skylines, Miatas, 3000GTs, RX7s, etc and everything about them is the same. Most have same weight, power, torque, everything really and only bits that are different are color, year or some special edition of some sorts. The car is still the exact same padded one. I mean look at how many Miatas and Skylines there are and most aren't different models at all.

Which is why I said.......

It could be argued that the above is actually 5 clearly different cars, rather than the 18 listed.

...so
911 GT3 Cup
911 GT3-RSR
F430GT
FG Falcon
Commodore VE

Which is five clearly different cars, as I already said.

However some of the logic used in the GT5 50% list would have seen all the 911 race and road cars put together, which once again comes back to a standard for what is a dupe and applying it equally.


Take for example this entry from the 50% GT5 List
Honda S2000 ‘99
Honda S2000 ‘01
Honda S2000 ‘03
Honda S2000 ‘06
Honda S2000 (EU) ‘99
Honda S2000 (EU) ‘03
Honda S2000 (US) ‘99
Honda S2000 (US) ‘01
Honda S2000 (US) ‘04
Honda S2000 Type V ‘00
Honda S2000 Type V ‘01
Honda S2000 Type V ‘03
Honda S2000 Type V (EU) ‘00
Honda S2000 Type V (EU) ‘01
Honda S2000 Type V (US) ‘00
Honda S2000 Type V (US) ‘01
Mugen MUGEN S2000 ‘00
Opera Performance S2000 ‘04
Spoon S2000 ‘00
Spoon S2000 Race Car ‘00

While it does quite clearly contain duplicates, it also contains a number of cars that are also very different, with a mixture of first and second gen models, performance variants and a race model. Were I to apply this same logic to the 911 list above it would both validate keeping them all in the same list, adding in two generations worth of 911 road car and then calling them a single car.

Thus my point about equal standards.



Scaff

 

[cuco33]

I don't think GT5 is 50% padded with dupes. That's way too high. 20-30% is probably being more realistic but half of the 1000+ car count? Nope.

I also wouldn't say race and road cars are dupes but they did reuse some model stuff. In FM3 a good example of this is the Ferrari 599 and the 599XX. I'm pretty sure that T10 reused at least some of the same models and added the extra bits to make it a 599XX. The car stats are very different and it comes down to the person if he considers this a dupe or not. When you see numerous versions of the same R34 Skyline... with same specs... that to me is purely a dupe. The Nascar cars are good examples. 3 car makers = 3 different cars even if there's 20 different liveries and team tunes. It's still the same car(s). My thing is I remember GT fans constantly preaching the 1000+ car list neglecting the dupes or the fact that 80% of them were ported over from other/older GT games. That 1000+ car preaching was ironic and hysterical to say the least.

 

[Luminis]

...so
911 GT3 Cup
911 GT3-RSR
F430GT
FG Falcon
Commodore VE

[...]

Scaff

I just wanted to point out that the 2005 and 2006 GT3 Cup and RSR are the 996 model, the 2007+ are based on the 997. I know, not that bigg of a difference, actually, but they're easily distinguishible from each other by their exterior, so I don't know whether they should be considered as the same car. Then again, I guess you are aware of this

Not that it would make much of a difference, either way. Both games clearly use duplicates to push their numbers.
But I also agree that GT does it to a larger extend, as well. Mazda and efini would make a fine example

By the way, I consider cars to duplicates if their exterior (and, if there, interior) is largely the same. A vent more here and there doesn't make much of a difference in my opinion, and neither do engine specs or suspension setups or diffferent liveries. Because those don't have to be modeled from the ground up.

 

[Scaff]

My thing is I remember GT fans constantly preaching the 1000+ car list neglecting the dupes or the fact that 80% of them were ported over from other/older GT games. That 1000+ car preaching was ironic and hysterical to say the least.

On that point we have complete agreement, and by the same logic those who then held up FM3 as being dupe free are being just as blinkered.

The whole "we have 1000+ cars" vs "we have 400+ unique cars" is interesting becuase both parties 'could' be considered to be right or wrong simply by applying differeing standards to how you measure it.

The up-shot is (for me) as long as the selection in any particular title appeals to you, then go for it, and forget the daft contests to see who has the bigger car count.

I just wanted to point out that the 2005 and 2006 GT3 Cup and RSR are the 996 model, the 2007+ are based on the 997. I know, not that bigg of a difference, actually, but they're easily distinguishible from each other by their exterior, so I don't know whether they should be considered as the same car. Then again, I guess you are aware of this

Not that it would make much of a difference, either way. Both games clearly use duplicates to push their numbers.
But I also agree that GT does it to a larger extend, as well. Mazda and efini would make a fine example :lol

I know, which is what makes agreeing a standard almost impossible, which does make you next point interesting......

By the way, I consider cars to duplicates if their exterior (and, if there, interior) is largely the same. A vent more here and there doesn't make much of a difference in my opinion, and neither do engine specs or suspension setups or diffferent liveries. Because those don't have to be modeled from the ground up.

....because I take almost the exact opposite view.

If FM and GT are to be classed as sims, then we should (and I believe we can) be able to tell the difference between engine specs, suspension set-ups, dimensions, etc.

Take as an example the Renaultsport Clio V6, the first and second generation cars look almost identical, apart from a chrome finish on the air intakes they are hard to visually tell apart. Which would make them a dupe for you.

However as the engine, drivetrain and most importantly suspension set-up, wheelbase and track were all modified (and in the case of the last two - significantly) they are two very different cars to drive in the real world, and I speak from personally experience here.

Now if FM and GT get the sim part of being a sim right, then we should be able to feel such difference and that for me would make them separate cars.

To be blunt the first gen Clio V6 will try and kill you as soon as you look at it funny, particularly in the wet they had evil lift off-oversteer which was almost impossible to catch if you did not catch it straight away. The second gen was almost totally different in that regard, being a much more adjustable car and far, far easier to catch and balance.

A similar case also stands for the S2000, which went from from having notorious lift-off oversteer in the first gen, to almost boringly predictable in the second gen.


And so we see the difficulty in apply or even agreeing a standard by which to measure this.

Scaff

 

[cuco33]

I'm a car nut so I'm always going to find cars in both games that I love to use and others that I hate. There will always be cars in 1 game missing in the other that I want in the other game. E30 M3 is a good example of this, actually mentioned in GT5's car museum but not even in the game (and what an epic car it is). In Forza, it's usually one of my first car purchases lol. But GT5 has it's own share of cars that Forza does NOT have that I wished they did. I'm also a big Skyline fan, R32 through R34, mostly R33 and R34 models though and I got the Pokemon bug in GT5... gotta catch them all. I actually think I have every R32 thru R34 Skyline, if not almost every one in my garage and the vast majority of them are literally the exact same car. In Forza 3 there's I believe only 2 R34s from what I remember. A standard Spec V II and the Mine's R34 GT-R. In GT5 I have over 10 factory R34s to choose from and then like 6 tuner/special editions. That's nice and all but I really don't need THAT many different versions of the R34 Skyline. Especially when my E30 M3 isn't even there

 

[GumShoe]

The list I created wasn't a perfect breakdown and I did mix a few where I probably shouldn't have due to all the quick copy/pasting into rows. I didn't deliberately group rally cars and race cars with road counterparts, there were also some I should have grouped but didn't because I was unsure of the model.

But in general the view I took was this: If the car appears as the same physical model (livery aside) to a casual racer that doesn't see the difference in setups etc, it's close enough to a duplicate.

I didn't meant to combine race cars with road cars, but I did say the count was +/- 50...

 

[Luminis]

I know, which is what makes agreeing a standard almost impossible, which does make you next point interesting......

....because I take almost the exact opposite view.

[...]

And so we see the difficulty in apply or even agreeing a standard by which to measure this.

Scaff

Well, the reason I consider cars that look the same as duplicates doesn't have anything to do with the cars in real life. It's just about the effort that goes into modelling them. for example, a BMW 335i and 335xi are totally different cars, even with a differentt drivetrain. However, it would be rather easy for a developer to just model the 335i and re-use the same car model for the 335xi.
Granted, the specs for the car would, of course, have to be different. But since they use almost the same 3D model, all of that work goes out of the window - which, in my opinion, is what limits the car count in games these days.

I just think it's a shortcut of some kind, so to speak. Dialing in the suspension settups and the like for the cars that look the same and use one model should be far less time consuming than to copy the specs that make the car behave as it does and paste them onto another car that demands a new model to be created for it. And, well, we all know how much time went into the modelling of cars for GT5.

That's nice and all but I really don't need THAT many different versions of the R34 Skyline.

I'm in the same boat, I guess. I love me some Skylines, KPGC10, KPGC110 and, of course, the E-BNR32, E-BCNR33 and GT-BNR34...

In my opinion, one 'basic' model and one 'special' model (if there is one of the car) should be enough for those kinds of cars, at least as far as factory models are concerned.

So, for the Skyline...

• R32 V-Spec II
• R33 V-Spec and Nimso 400R
• R34 V-Spec II and Nismo Z-Tune

I guess it's easy to see where I'm coming from. Those cars can be told apart easily and aren't that easy to replicate with the tuning options available. Also, a car like the Z-Tune and the 400R are somewhat special, in my opinion... Hard to match that. And maybe add the GTS-T models, for the rear wheel drive.

For the cars that are created by tuning companies... Depends on whether they can be convincingly recreated with what's in the game. FM's livery editor does all sorts of magic in that regard, but there are a few notable cars that should be included.
Like, for example, 'Smokey' Nagata's Top Secret V12 Supra:

That headlight conversion

 

[dzidza]

this discussion brings a great idea. we have one model and we have to buy different setups. eg. we get s2000 first model and then we apply 2nd gen setup and experience the difference, offcourse if the exterior didn't change.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Not sure I follow what dzidza just said.

 

[Luminis]

this discussion brings a great idea. we have one model and we have to buy different setups. eg. we get s2000 first model and then we apply 2nd gen setup and experience the difference, offcourse if the exterior didn't change.

Isn't that quite useless if we can just slap a new aftermarket suspension onto the car?

 

[cuco33]

I'd actually love it if PD/T10 or any dev really brought on car OEM upgrades. Like if you have a mk1 VW Rabbit GTI... square westy front lights? 3 bar badgless grill w/round cross hair lights? short tails or large tails? different OEM bumpers (early small NA? small euro? big bumper?), spoilers, different OEM wheels, etc. I'd even love it if there was a widebody option. One of the NFS titles had a custom body kit option where you adjusted parameters to edit the car's body/kit/spoiler/etc. But not do it half assed arcadey. Like give me an option 'widebody: yes/no' and I'm fine. Would LOVE to have made certain cars widebody and then open up wheel options to widen up the wheels even more.

Right now in Forza I can take a wheel that normally would requires an adapter and/or spacers to fit and it fits without any issues. I could even widen the crap out of the wheels and no visual body difference aside form the wheel being wider. In real life fenders are flared out to prevent rubbing and allow the wheel to fit, widebodies are made, etc. Would be a cool option.

I'm big into OEM+ upgrades and I have not seen a single game that takes OEM bits as upgrades. You usually get 1 car modeled from 1 region from 1 year and it comes with 1 option as it was modeled. Upgrades come via aftermarket kits, spoilers, wheels, etc. But never any love for the OEM+ upgrades...

 

[VXR]

I think Import Tuner challenge and some of the earlier Tokyo Xtreme Racers have an element of OEM+ as does GT4 where you can change wheels from another model in that range.

 

[cuco33]

I think Import Tuner challenge and some of the earlier Tokyo Xtreme Racers have an element of OEM+ as does GT4 where you can change wheels from another model in that range.

To be honest, I didn't get too too deep into GT4 like prior games. I knew about something regarding wheels within same model range. But I'd like to take a mk2 Golf GTI and put newer generation wheels on it, like mk3 wheels if I were doing a VR6 (6cyl 12v) engine swap. Would be nice to go 4lug to 5lug and have 5lug OEM wheels as an option as that's what's commonly done in real life. And while I'm at it I would love to swap out the front 5/7 bar grill w/ quad lights and go with a debadged 3/4 bar grill w/single round crosshair lights. Purely cosmetic upgrade with no performance relation but would be awesome for photomodes and video replays.

Hells I'd even love to take the expensive Rallye headlight conversion if available!

 

[dzidza]

Isn't that quite useless if we can just slap a new aftermarket suspension onto the car?

its not useless, you can buy aftermarket parts, but you will not get 2nd gen. improvment,only 1st gen with aftermarket parts. there would be need to have massive amount of aftermarket parts, but this way only the physics code is change, and you dont need to search what is changed in 2nd gen. i will try to explain my self better when i am by my pc. i am writing this from mobile phone....

 

[Luminis]

its not useless, you can buy aftermarket parts, but you will not get 2nd gen. improvment,only 1st gen with aftermarket parts. there would be need to have massive amount of aftermarket parts, but this way only the physics code is change, and you dont need to search what is changed in 2nd gen. i will try to explain my self better when i am by my pc. i am writing this from mobile phone....

I think I get your point, but wpuldn't it be far easier if you just bought the fully upgradable suspension and T10 just provided the correct setup for it instead of adding a designated 'generation upgrade'?

The best sollution, in my opinion, would be to just have a little pop-up that asks you whether you want the first or second generation of car. The default setup would just be changed accordingly.

Like give me an option 'widebody: yes/no' and I'm fine. Would LOVE to have made certain cars widebody and then open up wheel options to widen up the wheels even more.

One of my main gripes with FM3... No widebody kits/flared fenders. They're so common when it comes to performance cars, it's not even funny. And yet, not a sign of them in FM3. Shift 2 did that, so I hope T10 will follow suite.

 

[t.o.]

One of my main gripes with FM3... No widebody kits/flared fenders. They're so common when it comes to performance cars, it's not even funny. And yet, not a sign of them in FM3. Shift 2 did that, so I hope T10 will follow suite.

I doubt we'll see that in FM4 though. Would be nice but it's not that "in" over here in the states except for custom jobs for celebs and such. Something you'll see on shows like "West Coast Customs" or something.

 

[SuperShouden]

I noticed Forza lacks blowover physics, where as, GT5 has them. This would indicate that GT5 simulates air resistance, drag and other air related things a bit more accurately than Forza does....it also means the cars behave much differently then one would expect.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

I noticed Forza lacks blowover physics, where as, GT5 has them. This would indicate that GT5 simulates air resistance, drag and other air related things a bit more accurately than Forza does....it also means the cars behave much differently then one would expect.

Blowover?

And also: have you drafted in GT5? Cause if you have and you think that that's a more realistic representation of air physics than in Forza, I weep for you.

 

[SuperShouden]

Blowover is when enough air gets underneath a car to cause it to flip, or glide. Like when the CLR flipped 5 times in '99.

And as for drafting...it's GT5's superdraft vs. FM3's under draft. Seriously, I haven't noticed a draft in FM3.

 

[t.o.]

I noticed Forza lacks blowover physics,

I'm pretty sure it's there , especially when running NASCAR type oval races.

where as, GT5 has them. This would indicate that GT5 simulates air resistance, drag and other air related things a bit more accurately than Forza does

No, it just simply means GT5 saw fit to make sure there cars did it a little more than other games if you're seeing it left and right in GT5. NASCAR 2011 has it and I'm pretty sure it occurs more frequently in that game than in GT5. Does that mean NASCAR is simulating air resistance, drag and other air related things a bit more accurately than GT5 does? (Well if they suffer from aero damage in NASCAR I guess it does).

Dude just because a grape is green doesn't mean if all fruit aren't green then they aren't fruit.

Blowover is when enough air gets underneath a car to cause it to flip, or glide. Like when the CLR flipped 5 times in '99.

And as for drafting...it's GT5's superdraft vs. FM3's under draft. Seriously, I haven't noticed a draft in FM3.

Then I can honestly say you have spent NO time in FM3. None whatsoever and you probably need to cease speaking about what FM3 is and isn't because if you haven't notice that OBVIOUS element in Forza then you really haven't played it. By the way, FM3's "under draft" is not under at all. It's just about right but it definitely is WAY off like what GT5 has in effect.

 

[SuperShouden]

I'm pretty sure it's there , especially when running NASCAR type oval races.



No, it just simply means GT5 saw fit to make sure there cars did it a little more than other games if you're seeing it left and right in GT5. NASCAR 2011 has it and I'm pretty sure it occurs more frequently in that game than in GT5. Does that mean NASCAR is simulating air resistance, drag and other air related things a bit more accurately than GT5 does? (Well if they suffer from aero damage in NASCAR I guess it does).

Dude just because a grape is green doesn't mean if all fruit aren't green then they aren't fruit.


Then I can honestly say you have spent NO time in FM3. None whatsoever and you probably need to cease speaking about what FM3 is and isn't because if you haven't notice that OBVIOUS element in Forza then you really haven't played it. By the way, FM3's "under draft" is not under at all. It's just about right but it definitely is WAY off like what GT5 has in effect.

I've spent plenty of time in FM3. I just haven't notice a draft. In fact, the last time I noticed a draft in a Forza game was Forza 1 racing around the oval in an XJ220 and hitting 270mph before spinning out.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

I agree t.o. if you can't notice a draft in FM3 you're doing it wrong.

As a point of information though, drafting in stock bodied street cars is barely noticeable most of the time both in real life and in FM. In order for drafting to really be effective, you need to wither be going quite fast (so that the mere lack of air resistance is a significant improvement) or be making a fair amount of downforce (so that the lack of air stalls the wings/diffuser) or both. Stock bodied street cars don't really do either of these things often, so if you only race cars like that then I could see how maybe you think that there's little or no drafting in FM. But like I said, it's the same in real life, so I'm not sure where the assumption would come from that it should be different in a sim...
Unless of course you're basing what a sim should do off of what you see when watching races on TV (and not experience) where you see drafting working, but that's on cars that use aerodynamic aids that facilitate the effectiveness of drafting, so there's little carryover to street cars in that regard.

Either way, we can all agree that GT5 has way too much gain from drafting, and no performance loss from damaged aerodynamic parts yes? So how does it simulate air effects better than FM (which has more realistic draft and performance loss from aero damage) exactly?
I really can't see an argument here...

 

[AndersonG22]

I'm pretty sure it's there , especially when running NASCAR type oval races.



No, it just simply means GT5 saw fit to make sure there cars did it a little more than other games if you're seeing it left and right in GT5. NASCAR 2011 has it and I'm pretty sure it occurs more frequently in that game than in GT5. Does that mean NASCAR is simulating air resistance, drag and other air related things a bit more accurately than GT5 does? (Well if they suffer from aero damage in NASCAR I guess it does).

Dude just because a grape is green doesn't mean if all fruit aren't green then they aren't fruit.


Then I can honestly say you have spent NO time in FM3. None whatsoever and you probably need to cease speaking about what FM3 is and isn't because if you haven't notice that OBVIOUS element in Forza then you really haven't played it. By the way, FM3's "under draft" is not under at all. It's just about right but it definitely is WAY off like what GT5 has in effect.

There was drafting way back in fm1. Look at this test track oval layout, drafting played a key role when setting the fastest time there. The enzo went around 250mph no drafting in fm1, drafting you could hit 300! Fm1,2, and 3 have plenty of drafting.

FM1 Test track Oval layout below
http://www.forzastudios.com/features/tracks/7/

 

[dzidza]

There was drafting way back in fm1. Look at this test track oval layout, drafting played a key role when setting the fastest time there. The enzo went around 250mph no drafting in fm1, drafting you could hit 300! Fm1,2, and 3 have plenty of drafting.

FM1 Test track Oval layout below
http://www.forzastudios.com/features/tracks/7/

Wasn't there draft meter in F2!?

GT5's draft effect is a more then way exaggerated. I can understand the point, to have more competitive racing online, but it just helps slow drivers, and it doesn't help them to learn to drive faster. When racing in a league or with your friends there is no need for that amount of draft. There should be option to have real draft, as there is an option to have boost.Since there is no draft in the online practice mode, it wouldn't be hard to implement it in race mode.

I personally prefer Forza's draft more then GT5.

 

[amar212]

Forza simulates both positive and negative drafting. That is the reason why you can have "clean" times fro laps when your car catches either positive (from car infront) or negative (when you're being drafted) slipstream.

By watching the small exclamation mark in triangle appears next to your lap-time you can pretty much learn about the draft-zones and draft-influence.

However, I agree about the comment regarding blowover physics, that is the place where GT5 currently excels, especially after the 1.10 update. Dirty air is so much more pronounced and air-hole is so punishing for driver slipstreaming behind.

Also worth noticing is that GT5 pretty much simulates air-blow over the whole track and objects model and does it amazing. You can observe it by parking next to the track with grass/flowers and next to the some sandtrap. Every time the cars pass, grass/flowers bends in real-time while dust and sand gets different blow and direction depending of other car influence.

 

[AndersonG22]

Wasn't there draft meter in F2!?

I dont know kramer, even though I played the crap out of that game.

 

[t.o.]

Forza simulates both positive and negative drafting. That is the reason why you can have "clean" times fro laps when your car catches either positive (from car infront) or negative (when you're being drafted) slipstream.

By watching the small exclamation mark in triangle appears next to your lap-time you can pretty much learn about the draft-zones and draft-influence.

However, I agree about the comment regarding blowover physics, that is the place where GT5 currently excels, especially after the 1.10 update. Dirty air is so much more pronounced and air-hole is so punishing for driver slipstreaming behind.

Also worth noticing is that GT5 pretty much simulates air-blow over the whole track and objects model and does it amazing. You can observe it by parking next to the track with grass/flowers and next to the some sandtrap. Every time the cars pass, grass/flowers bends in real-time while dust and sand gets different blow and direction depending of other car influence.

Don't know if we're talking about the same thing here about what I'm going to say but dirty here is very much present in Forza, especially when you're on someone's tail in the turns. Just had a race tonight and when taking turns with guys right on your bumper it changed the cars dynamics rather than turning on your own. The guy in the back's car would push more and the guy in the front's rear end who be just a bit more loose than when nobody is there. The two runners in the front kept commenting about it as they were on each other's tail. I also got a good dose of it every time I got aggressive and wanted more from my car.