FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)
- Thread starter Scaff
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- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
Does GT simulate Areo damage like Forza?
- 4,038
- United States
Then you haven't played FM3, or you haven't paid any attention.
- 145
Drafting definitely works in FM4.
- 563
Offcourse not. I havent noticed anything resembling it either. Come on Gt5 couldn't even get the visual damage work good. Let alone Aero damage, what a joke.
GT5 will be blown out off the water when FM4 comes out. Its like a sitting duck wait right now.
RIP GT5
- 4,038
- United States
So I assume you will play only Autovista, cause ingame graphics/lightening RIP F4.
Juddging a game from Autovista point, is silly unless you just use Autovista
Bogie 19th you know that they didn't only develop GT5 in those 5 years. Will F4 have 3D support, night and day dynamic transition, weather??????
Maybe in F5, in next two years, so for Forza to reach those things will take 6 or more years if ever on X360!!!
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- 4,004
- Croatia
Well Hospita, with your current state of mind I can safely presume you're one of those individuals that like to be very vocal about their bias.Nice to know.
However, in order to answer for Spagetti and somewhat even you, all games in Gran Turismo series - since 1997 and first PSone game - have aerodynamic handicap that rises with usage of your car.
It is not "aero damage" per-se, but with usage of the car "dirt" gets built up and car gets matte. That "dirt" is in fact aerodynamic handicap, which limits aerodynamic-characteristics of the vehicle up to 10%. Simple "Car Wash" procedure removes collected "dirt" and allows for 100% aerodynamic-characteristics.
It is foundational part of the GT-series unique "ownership-maintenance" philosophy that have evolved through last 5 "big" games into current GT Auto shop with all it's "workshops" there.
So, you can be very vocal regarding "GT RIP" and such nonsense, but since no other game-developer have ever even try to mimic or develop it's own "ownership-maintenance" approach - instead, all of them took an easier line and you basically "own" cars without any consequence except very arbitrary "post race automatic damage repair" - I can go that far and say that you have no real idea what are you contextually talking about.
- 1,732
- cuco33
The CLK GTR that 'launched' at Le Mans in '99 was a poor aerodynamic design under the car. Down the Mulsanne Straight the cars (there were 2, we only have video of 1 of them) air got trapped underneath the car and created too much lift. I've never heard the term 'blowover' but I don't watch Nascar. It certainly was much different than Nascar cars taking off after crashing a bit and going sideways, to eventually trap air under the car. In the Nascar example, the car won't launch naturally. It needs to be bumping around a bit on the grass, sideways even, for air to get trapped underneath enough to create lift. In the CLK GTR example... just purely bad aerodynamic design. They had 1 car crash due to excessive lift down a straight at high speed... did some alterations on the aerodynamics but they still had the same issue and is the famous video we all have seen today.
Drafting does exist in FM3. If you've played it as much as you have, you'd notice it by now. You only need to take a car out to one of the ovals to experience it.
The dirt build up in GT isn't the same as the aero damage in Forza. I sort of like the idea of aerodynamic drag being increased the more you drive a car that continues to get dirtier. But in real life all race cars are cleaned very well before each race. I don't need to simulate that I need to wash my car after X miles put in. I expect the car to be at tip top performance before a race even begins.
That 'ownership maintenance' in GT games is beyond ridiculous, especially when PD can't even get something like damage correctly in the game. Correctly as in the importance of a damage system is the affects to a car's performance after an incident, NOT the visual fluff that represents a crash. And that should have been implemented throughout the entire game, not limited to certain modes. But PD thought it was a brilliant idea to continue including car washes and oil changes and neglect the importance of a basic damage system...
I'm going to disagree with you t.o.... it very much IS 'in' here in the states. It just costs A LOT and that's why most people don't do them. Most who spend that kind of money to widebody a normal car also toss in wider and more expensive wheels, on top of other things. We're talking about spending thousands upon thousands on a car, especially when there's no kit but is all done custom. These cars are usually trailered to car shows and events. Most who go with wider wheels don't overdo the wideness and just flair out their fenders and eliminate any fender liners to eliminate any wheel rubbing issues.
Then there's cars that naturally come with a widebody. Audi's RS models are perfect example. The A4 and S4 models are standard A4 platform without any widebody, but the RS4 gets the wideness. Same for A6/S6 vs RS6. Same with Porsche 911s and the 911 GT3 RS/RSR models. Same with E30 3series vs E30 M3. These factory cars would be in the game so that's cool but I would LOVE the option to add widebody to at least some cars, and also allow me to go wider wheels. Mostly for photo/video modes and not so much racing but it's always nice to toss in much wider wheels if given the option.
Here's a perfect example of what I'd LOVE to do in a racing sim game. Take a standard A4/S4, toss in a little widebody and some sexy wheels. Wider stance would give me a different driving feeling and be a bit more stable. Might even tune it and race with it.
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Scaff
Moderator
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- He/Him
- ScaffUK
The car that launched at Le Mans in '99 was not a CLK GTR but a CLR...
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/benzCLR.html
with the differences between the '98 CLK GTR and the '99 CLR covered here...
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/benzCLR3.html
.. and the reason for the flight was a combination of aero and suspension set-up, with the bumpy nature of the track at Le Mans the catalyst for it all, as covered in these pieces from the always informative Mulsanne Corner....
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/benzCLR1.html
(the term blow-over is also used in this article)
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/techarticle1.htm
...in a nutshell the cars (as all of this type did) relied very heavily on ground effects, however the second the ground effect is broken (in this case by a bump causing the front of the car to come off the ground) the change in rake angle caused the aero to turn the car into a wing.
The level of lift that the top of these cars generate is covered in the second article and can suck windows and doors off cars.
Scaff
- 2,978
- England
- WilliamsJIM_Adam
Well Forza is more about racing than GT is. GT is more about owning cars and driving them, although I guess this mode where you can view the engine bay and whatever will improve that aspect for Forza (even if it looks completely pointless to me).
That 'ownership maintenance' in GT games is beyond ridiculous, especially when PD can't even get something like damage correctly in the game. Correctly as in the importance of a damage system is the affects to a car's performance after an incident, NOT the visual fluff that represents a crash. And that should have been implemented throughout the entire game, not limited to certain modes. But PD thought it was a brilliant idea to continue including car washes and oil changes and neglect the importance of a basic damage system...
You're right. Damage is ridiculous. I would have much rather them released a full on damage model in GT6 or GT7 rather than this rubbish. At the moment, you drive into a wall at 150 mph and you have a few scratches on your car. If we didn't have a damage model, well you have the excuse that you don't have a damage model yet. If we had a proper damage model, well that's good. But with GT5's current damage model it makes the game look more cheap than it did before.
But PD thought it was a brilliant idea to continue including car washes and oil changes and neglect the importance of a basic damage system...
The damage system wouldn't be improved at the expense of scrapping oil changes and car washes.
- 1,732
- cuco33
Scaff, you're right... I don't know why but I always get the CLR and CLK GTR mixed up. I still to this day think it's the CLK GTR that went airborne and isn't the first time I've been corrected.
Still this 'blowover' you see in Nascar occurs when a car gets air trapped underneath a car that's already lost control. Usually the car is bouncing a bit sideways on the grass until big air gets trapped launching the car. It's somewhat similar to the MB's in my book but in the MB's case there are differences. The cars didn't really lose control creating the chance of air to pass under a car. It's as you said a combination of things. Poor aerodynamics and suspension settings (I blame it more on aero though) allowed air to create lift on the car when it shouldn't have. The car was in control, crossing over some bumps and then boom. Airborne.
I see these 2 types of accidents being related but different. Related that they both went airborne but root causes for launching are completely different.
The thing with me is that the game already showcases that damage in GT5 work well in those modes that allow it. I just don't get why NOT offer this system throughout the game. Link it to more xp and credits. Wouldn't have to have had PD create so many patches to tweak, adjust, and include modes that garner more xp/credits. The resolution for more xp/credits would have been a simple one copying what everyone seems to do. Full race sim modes set to expert and include damage at full + keep tire wear and fuel consumption = max xp/credits. Forza does this, and other games do too. Damage was not part of the original GT5 plans and to me... that's just sad. It adds so much more than the majority of new inclusions to the franchise.
I agree that not having car washes and oil changes wouldn't bring in a damage system but clearly their priorities were that car washes and oil changes, along with paint chips, horns, driver gear/helmets, 3D, etc etc were far more important to them then a damage system. Damage was introduced to the franchise late in development. It's a shame the vast majority of people who discussed damage did so on the visuals only neglecting the absolute clear cut reason what the importance of this system is... and it's not graphics!!
Still this 'blowover' you see in Nascar occurs when a car gets air trapped underneath a car that's already lost control. Usually the car is bouncing a bit sideways on the grass until big air gets trapped launching the car. It's somewhat similar to the MB's in my book but in the MB's case there are differences. The cars didn't really lose control creating the chance of air to pass under a car. It's as you said a combination of things. Poor aerodynamics and suspension settings (I blame it more on aero though) allowed air to create lift on the car when it shouldn't have. The car was in control, crossing over some bumps and then boom. Airborne.
I see these 2 types of accidents being related but different. Related that they both went airborne but root causes for launching are completely different.
You're right. Damage is ridiculous. I would have much rather them released a full on damage model in GT6 or GT7 rather than this rubbish. At the moment, you drive into a wall at 150 mph and you have a few scratches on your car. If we didn't have a damage model, well you have the excuse that you don't have a damage model yet. If we had a proper damage model, well that's good. But with GT5's current damage model it makes the game look more cheap than it did before.
The damage system wouldn't be improved at the expense of scrapping oil changes and car washes.
The thing with me is that the game already showcases that damage in GT5 work well in those modes that allow it. I just don't get why NOT offer this system throughout the game. Link it to more xp and credits. Wouldn't have to have had PD create so many patches to tweak, adjust, and include modes that garner more xp/credits. The resolution for more xp/credits would have been a simple one copying what everyone seems to do. Full race sim modes set to expert and include damage at full + keep tire wear and fuel consumption = max xp/credits. Forza does this, and other games do too. Damage was not part of the original GT5 plans and to me... that's just sad. It adds so much more than the majority of new inclusions to the franchise.
I agree that not having car washes and oil changes wouldn't bring in a damage system but clearly their priorities were that car washes and oil changes, along with paint chips, horns, driver gear/helmets, 3D, etc etc were far more important to them then a damage system. Damage was introduced to the franchise late in development. It's a shame the vast majority of people who discussed damage did so on the visuals only neglecting the absolute clear cut reason what the importance of this system is... and it's not graphics!!
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- 4,440
- zr1chris
- zr1chris
I popped in Forza 3 yesterday for the first time in about 10 months. I knew Forza had better car sounds than GT5 but WOW I was blown away last night after hearing it for the first time in so long and after being so used to the junk sounds of GT5. Stock cars sound exactly like the real thing IMO. PD needs to take some notes. The sounds alone make the game very enjoyable to play. If they improved the physics like they say they have then Forza will be pretty far ahead of GT IMO. I much rather have proper sounding cars and premium graphics on ALL cars with livery editor and body kits then have weather and night racing. Not to mention Forza's 500 car, car list is far superior IMO than GT5's 1000 car, list.
SuperShouden
(Banned)
- 7,542
- SuperShouden
But....Forza uses premium and standard models, too....in fact FM4 will do so even more so 'cause the "Premium" cars are all laser scanned for photomode. Speaking of photomode, from what I've seen, it doesn't appear that you'll be able to move your car around in photomode like in GT5. Seems like it might have a similar photomode this time, but...I mean...I've only seen them in one position for FM4's photomode.
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The problem with that logic is that FM3 is much older than GT5 and in my honest opinion in over all enjoyment GT5 is not superior to FM3 and that IS a shame.
I would be careful spreading lies like this. I think this behavior already cost you a "vacation" here. Misleading sentence. There is NO premium/standard in Forza. Never has, never will. Every car on that track is the same level of quality. If one car has a cockpit then ALL cars have a cockpit. If one car gets a certain amount of damage then ALL cars get that damage. There is, wasn't, and never will be any prem/standard class in Forza.
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- zr1chris
- zr1chris
Well in Forza 3 you can park your car anywhere on any track in any position and go into photomode. You can even pause while driving and go into photomode. I cant see them doing away with that.
- 1,732
- cuco33
Standard vs premium BS that PD brought in to GT5 is not the same here by any means. There are game features you can not utilize with standards at all. That disparity splits things up in a bad way but to be honest, I'd rather have the standards as many of the premium cars are 'meh' to me. I mean an MB 2.3 Evo2 is a standard car but a Toyota Prius is a premium?! In a racing game nonetheless..
Every car in Forza 4 will have a cockpit view and be able to have the same types of upgrades such as wheels. In photomodes you should be able to move around at will to take your shots. In Autovista mode, you are locked to certain views as this mode is meant to be like an intro/demo of the car. I think the only disparity, which I'm not a fan if true, is the AutoVista mode. Certain cars will be chosen for this mode while others won't. In a game with 500+ cars, I will always like certain cars more than others and that opinion will vary between player to player.
Every car in Forza 4 will have a cockpit view and be able to have the same types of upgrades such as wheels. In photomodes you should be able to move around at will to take your shots. In Autovista mode, you are locked to certain views as this mode is meant to be like an intro/demo of the car. I think the only disparity, which I'm not a fan if true, is the AutoVista mode. Certain cars will be chosen for this mode while others won't. In a game with 500+ cars, I will always like certain cars more than others and that opinion will vary between player to player.
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It depends on the size and flexibility on your team. Btw, 5 years is too much for game development, I have never believed that.
- 9,295
- Duisburg
If you think that not having a car in AutoVista is equal to the inferior 3D model, inferior textures, inferior damage model, no costomization at all and the lack of cockpit view that GT5's standard cars show, then I really don't know what to say about that.
We haven't even seen photo mode. Only AutoVista.
Are you trying to make those 'facts' of yours up or are you really convinced of what you're saying?!
They did start from scratch after dropping the whole GT HD thing, I believe, and there was the 'game' GTPSP. If you can call that a game, that is. More like a watered down GT4 port.
Either way, yes, I agree, five years is too much. I think that, with so much time, most developers would design a game to death. By adding stuff here and there that's not necessary nor help to improve the game.
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- 1,732
- cuco33
It also depends on the work load the same limited team had over the years. PD worked on A LOT of non-gaming related projects. 4K tech demos, auto manufacturer promo stuff, Nissan GTR hud design, Citroen GT and Red Bull X1 prototype designs, even a few Nissan 350z kit designs... all without ever growing the team or outsourcing any work. It was a major case of mismanagement and I'm sure Sony pushing PD to include things like 3D didn't help either.
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Sounds you say, is it SOUNDS you say? Well here's a little sample of some sound. Listen to the whine coming from that Shelby.... ( you can also listen to me screwing up the shifting at the beginning in that Camaro if you can catch it
) ......A little action from our Wheel Racers Continental Tire Championship at Road America last night.......
I kept grinding my gears all night long last night. Have been using the paddle shifters in the previous cars/races but with these cars I feel the stick is better. And it is, just wasn't for me last night. lol
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- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
Blaze_409
I disagree.
- 563
Eurogamer interview :"Turn 10’s refusal to talk about night-racing and wet-weather driving suggest that there will indeed be night-racing and wet-weather driving. "
Source : http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-06-17-forza-4-preview
All ingame Livefeed footage looks as good ingame as is AUtovista.
Yes very "unique" but not realistic and very lame way too simulate something like that. It is not visible in any menu or in any spec list. So how do
you know this Mysterious "Aero damage" really exists or works as you claim it does? Proof?
At least in Forza Aero damage means that if i bump into someone my frontsplitter or wing will have damage. That is clearly visible during gameplay in the Telemetry menu. The downforce will cleary be reduced after such a hit. Something GT has not even implemented. By the way NFS Shift stole this and copied it exactly from FM3 and FM2. (menu)
Premium and Standard Models? No some will have engine bays fully modelled and will have a bit more details overall, ALL OF THEM WILL HAVE COCKPITS AND WILL BE CUSTUMIZABLE, PAINTABLE. You will be able too move around you car in Photomode. But certainly not the GT5 Standard/Premium debacle. Dont let me refresh your short memory with some links too a few threads on the dark side..
Haha funny you say that. Because in gt5 in cant even go too photomode while racing.. Noo Kaz makes me wait till the race is over. So i can watch a stupid replay i cant even FastForward or backwards..
Btw Supershouden this 458 is looking awefully nice in that Autovista mode hey?
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- 893
- Mill Creek, WA
- HighSeasHoMastr
- HighSeasHoMastr
- 2,414
You know what, let's give them that. Ok , sure , some dirt effects your aero. Ok you got that. In GT5 dirt effects your aero, the fact that after a big crash your rear spoiler is now a souvenir for some guy in the stands, your front spoiler is laid out on the track and your side skirts looks like King Kong crushed it and none of this affects your aero is laughable. I bet if we made a poll asking if you had to choose one which one would you want in a racing game the results would be OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of damage affecting aero.
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