FM7 vs. PCars 2 vs. GT:Sport

[Harry Freq]

I've thought a lot about posting this here since I put it together, and am aware of the potential fall-out from doing so (and that some should even exist is the reason why I am posting it).

The video does contain a degree of swearing so take that as a warning before playing it, and its title is "What's wrong with Gran Turismo Sport". Now if that gets your back up and you on the defensive straight away then a chance exists that I might be talking about you, as what I believe is wrong with GTS is not GTS itself.

Looks like your driving on ice? Why you spinning out so much?

 

[F Inferno]

All three games are great fun and I am enjoying them, albeit for slightly different reasons. I am using a Simxperience Accuforce direct drive wheel, Main Performance PC Simpedals and dual Thrustmaster THR8S shifters, one in H and one in sequential modes.

PC2 is great fun. I can play in VR with my Oculus Rift and it has the best track selection. It’s the only game of the three that has Sim Commander 4 support and so that helps the FFB and tactile. The A.I. is fine and forms the basis for a solid single player mode. The multiplayer is user driven which is not my preference but it’s OK.

GT Sport is also great fun. The multiplayer is well organized and VERY CLEAN! I am playing at 1080p on a single screen but the game nonetheless looks great. The single campaign is slimmed down a lot but still worthwhile. The VR mode feels tacked on and is bereft of substance. The daily workout is a nice touch, very easy way to get a free car. FFB is fine, but not as deep as Forza 7 or PC2.

Forza 7 is my favorite. The graphics are drop dead gorgeous and I am getting silky smooth FPS on my gaming PC at a triple screen resolution of 7680 X 1440. The single player is superb, great way to earn credits and cars. Loot boxes are handy for getting mods. The $50k box is my favorite. A.I. is good at Pro, but a little too hard if I don’t know the track. FFB is superb, nice and strong plus I can feel what the car is doing. Multiplayer is a wreck fest, no penalty for ramming cars on Turn 1. I hope that changes in the League racing once it’s implemented. Car selection is amazing, it will probably take me years to collect all of the cars.

My two cents, take em or leave em.

There is no way Forza 7 has anywhere close to better feedback than PC2 regardless of hardware. I use a CSW V2 and the Forza demo whilst serviceable was a long way from good and the 80 page thread on the Forza forums talking about the FFB not being very good would tell me most people agree.

I bought an Accuforce in the BF sale along with Forza 7 Ultimate Edition so I will be testing it on both wheels but I would be shocked if it is any better. The controller gave more feedback than the wheel in my experience.

 

[Zero7159]

Where in my post does it say that the Forza 7 FFB is better that Project CARS 2? I noted the SC4 support and so of course it has the best FFB of the three games. That being said, for the reasons I note in my post, Forza 7 is my favorite of the three games.

 

[F Inferno]

Where in my post does it say that the Forza 7 FFB is better that Project CARS 2? I noted the SC4 support and so of course it has the best FFB of the three games. That being said, for the reasons I note in my post, Forza 7 is my favorite of the three games.

Sorry my bad I read the other reply and merged the two. I still have to say the FFB in the demo was so far from superb I feel like we played two different games.

Comparing it back to back with PC2, AC, RRRE, Autombolista etc. it has pretty terrible FFB in communicating what the car is doing when on and over the limit, it was pretty lifeless. Big improvement over FH3 and Apex but still a long way from good.

I turn off all the fake FFB effects too as I have a Buttkicker to take care of that so it's not like I even expect tons of effects but it's just lifeless.

Take vibration for example what is that setting trying to do? As far as I could tell it was just a copy/paste from a controller to vibrate on uneven ground in a very canned way without actually giving any feedback.

Perhaps it's much improved in the full game and like I say I've picked up the ultimate edition and an Accuforce so I'm not trying to **** on the game, I just don't think it has good FFB and neither do most people. You said he can't refute your claims because he doesn't have the same wheel but I do and we shall see.

 

[Zero7159]

Perhaps it's much improved in the full game and like I say I've picked up the ultimate edition and an Accuforce so I'm not trying to **** on the game, I just don't think it has good FFB and neither do most people. You said he can't refute your claims because he doesn't have the same wheel but I do and we shall see.

Keep in mind that Forza 7 does not yet have native SC4/Accuforce support and so you will need to use GIMX and a USB adapter to get FFB, etc. GIMX emulates a G27 and so it allows you to use your wheel, pedals, etc. in Forza 7 because the G27 is a support wheel. More details can be found here:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ogitech-driving-force-gt-g27-with-ffb.336625/

 

[F Inferno]

Keep in mind that Forza 7 does not yet have native SC4/Accuforce support and so you will need to use GIMX and a USB adapter to get FFB, etc. GIMX emulates a G27 and so it allows you to use your wheel, pedals, etc. in Forza 7 because the G27 is a support wheel. More details can be found here:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ogitech-driving-force-gt-g27-with-ffb.336625/

Does it not? I thought the creators update was meant to add it, I also saw a sim commander update which had Forza 7 stuff.

 

[Zero7159]

Does it not? I thought the creators update was meant to add it, I also saw a sim commander update which had Forza 7 stuff.

Yeah, its a good question. I will try my Accuforce tonight with Forza 7, without using GIMX and will report back. I am on the iRacing forums and the owner of Simxperience, Berney Villers, just posted the following note:

"I'm not sure why this would be needed to play Forza Motorsport 7 on the PC with the OSW. To the best of my knowledge, no special hardware is needed to run the AccuForce with the PC version of Forza Motorsport 7 on Windows 10. (emphasis added) If any AccuForce owners find that to not be the case, please start a thread in the SimXperience Owners Club forum to discuss."

 

[CSLACR]

I tried the Pc2 demo, feels pretty odd with the controller.
I'd try it out with a popular wheel on Xbox, but they haven't gotten around to that, well, ever.
I'm not even buying it for the $25 sale price, because why?

There is no way Forza 7 has anywhere close to better feedback than PC2 regardless of hardware.

You know Pcars 2 doesn't even work with a G920, right?

 

[VXR]

Having no qualms about how 7 would feel to play given previous experience in the series, I have to say, GTS has definitely come more in line with the Forza approach to car feel. Not quite there, I do miss the more subtle elements of car control that only Forza has really nailed on a pad, but certainly better than GT6 where the transition of grip always felt very black and white.

Eventually I will get 7, but I don't feel bad for going the GT route this time.

 

[F Inferno]

I tried the Pc2 demo, feels pretty odd with the controller.
I'd try it out with a popular wheel on Xbox, but they haven't gotten around to that, well, ever.
I'm not even buying it for the $25 sale price, because why?


You know Pcars 2 doesn't even work with a G920, right?

How does that make the FFB bad because one wheel doesn't work, DD wheels don't work on consoles so does that automatically make them all suck, no.

Anyway been playing some Forza on the pad first and now starting on the wheel, feels pretty good so far actually, better than the demo but will need to adjust some settings now as still felt a bit rubberbandy on stock settings.

 

[ImaRobot]

How does that make the FFB bad because one wheel doesn't work

You seem to have an issue with replying to things people haven't said.

 

[F Inferno]

You seem to have an issue with replying to things people haven't said.

Not really, he bolded the part where I said regardless of hardware as if the G920 not working meant Forza 7 has better FFB. All that means is he hasn't even been able to compare.

What was you interpretation of his comment then? Unless he was just using it as another opportunity to say how bad PC2 is, otherwise it had no real relevance to my point about FFB quality. Every wheel works in PC2 on PC but the same can't be said of Forza 7, swings both ways. Perhaps next time I will ask what it has to do with what I said to keep you happy .

Now back to testing Forza

 

[CSLACR]

How does that make the FFB bad because one wheel doesn't work, DD wheels don't work on consoles so does that automatically make them all suck, no.

Anyway been playing some Forza on the pad first and now starting on the wheel, feels pretty good so far actually, better than the demo but will need to adjust some settings now as still felt a bit rubberbandy on stock settings.

I didn't say it was bad.

You said it's better regardless of hardware.
I pointed out that's not true.

FM7 may not work with every wheel on PC, but they haven't been making games on PC as long as PCars has on Xbox.

Another obvious difference is that FM7 is decent with a controller, PCars feels like an old Test Drive from PS2 with it.

 

[BoneSawTX]

I can confidently say test drive was much better with the d-pad than both pcars on a controller.

 

[F Inferno]

I didn't say it was bad.

You said it's better regardless of hardware.
I pointed out that's not true.

FM7 may not work with every wheel on PC, but they haven't been making games on PC as long as PCars has on Xbox.

Another obvious difference is that FM7 is decent with a controller, PCars feels like an old Test Drive from PS2 with it.

It is better though, just because it doesn't work for you doesn't change the underlying physics/FFB does it now, that would only be the case if it was only tuned for one wheel with 30nm of force that wouldn't scale on anything lower and just clipped everything losing detail which is not the case. I'd also like to point out that plenty of people are having issues with the G920 on Forza 7 too...

FM7 is decent with a controller because of all the hidden controller assists, turn them all off like every other full sim and they are just as hard to drive with a controller. Forza makes it much easier to drive with a controller by cheating basically but it also numbs a lot of the characteristics of the cars to do so and over the limit cars feel completely different on a wheel compared to a pad without those controller assists.

It's a double edged sword but obviously the majority of their demographic are pad users and that's what it's tailored to, it's just two very different approaches and perhaps you could argue SMS should have added those controller assists on consoles but it's very hard to balance vs. a wheel if you actively make cars much easier to drive on a pad.

 

[ImaRobot]

FM7 is decent with a controller because of all the hidden controller assists, turn them all off like every other full sim and they are just as hard to drive with a controller. Forza makes it much easier to drive with a controller by cheating basically but it also numbs a lot of the characteristics of the cars to do so and over the limit cars feel completely different on a wheel compared to a pad without those controller assists.

It's really not cheating. It's just dampening inputs to smoothing out transitions from lock to lock, considering the lack of rotational degrees available to it. Simulation steering gives you that feel you get from other sims, and it's pretty bad at times, but completely manageable with time.

It's a double edged sword but obviously the majority of their demographic are pad users and that's what it's tailored to, it's just two very different approaches and perhaps you could argue SMS should have added those controller assists on consoles but it's very hard to balance vs. a wheel if you actively make cars much easier to drive on a pad.

I'm not so sure I agree. They can design the game around the wheel and introduce similar dampening aids when a controller is connected.

 

[F Inferno]

It's really not cheating. It's just dampening inputs to smoothing out transitions from lock to lock, considering the lack of rotational degrees available to it. Simulation steering gives you that feel you get from other sims, and it's pretty bad at times, but completely manageable with time.


I'm not so sure I agree. They can design the game around the wheel and introduce similar dampening aids when a controller is connected.

I only mean cheating in as much as using driving aids a car didn't/doesn't have is "cheating" to make it so someone is able to drive it when they otherwise wouldn't be able to.

I really wish they would implement a realistic aids setting along with not making me use a clutch in every car if I turn on manual with clutch, not to mention the basic omission of automatic steering lock!

We can argue over how much filtering should be used on a controller but holy crap for the budget and size of T10 to not have your basic automatic plug & play wheel settings to match the car is a sick joke.

They can do that but then the "hardcore" sim racers get all pissy and claim it can't possibly be a real sim because it's too easy on a controller, honestly the little cults in sim racing communities are a weird and do more harm than good. I love all racing games and unless they are really bad (NFS 2015!) I'll enjoy any type.

 

[ImaRobot]

I only mean cheating in as much as using driving aids a car didn't/doesn't have is "cheating" to make it so someone is able to drive it when they otherwise wouldn't be able to.

Still doesn't make much sense considering the actual toggleable aids available in game. Not every car has the opportunity to be willy with them, like we are in these games.

I really wish they would implement a realistic aids setting along with not making me use a clutch in every car if I turn on manual with clutch, not to mention the basic omission of automatic steering lock!

Eh, I'm not interested in that much realism. I'd rather not be restricted to the vehicle, especially in games like Forza where customization is a big thing. EDIT - just saw that you asked for a setting, and yeah, I agree for those that want it.

We can argue over how much filtering should be used on a controller but holy crap for the budget and size of T10 to not have your basic automatic plug & play wheel settings to match the car is a sick joke.

No comment there. No wheel on my side and no interest in one as it sits.

 

[F Inferno]

Eh, I'm not interested in that much realism. I'd rather not be restricted to the vehicle, especially in games like Forza where customization is a big thing

Compare it it PCars and Assetto Corsa you can do all the same things in those as Forza driving aid wise mix & match and force them all to use the same ones but you also get an additional realistic aids setting which basically just gives you whatever the real car would have automatically. In some cases it makes cars easier to drive than if you went out with no TCS or ABS as a lot of modern supercars cars aren't designed to be driven well without the electronic aids.

Same thing with manual gears and clutch, if the car has an h-shifter you'll need to use the clutch and shifter but if it has a sequential shifter then you won't need to use the clutch because it makes no sense as an electronic sequential shifter is faster in reality. There are even some cars which have sequential stick shifts which need the clutch on upshifts (Ginetta GT4) it's just interesting to find out stuff like that.

I'm guessing flat shifting with damage off is still glitched and faster than driving properly though which is all the more reason the change it!

Customisation doesn't really effect it, if anything the fact you can switch gearboxes to improve shift times already could be played out with the physical change too.

Automatic degree of rotation on the wheel is super important though as trying to drive an F1 wheel with 900 degrees when it's meant to be ~360 is a nightmare.

Going off on a long tangent now so I will be quite for a bit .

 

[ImaRobot]

Compare it it PCars and Assetto Corsa you can do all the same things in those as Forza driving aid wise mix & match and force them all to use the same ones but you also get an additional realistic aids setting which basically just gives you whatever the real car would have automatically. In some cases it makes cars easier to drive than if you went out with no TCS or ABS as a lot of modern supercars cars aren't designed to be driven well without the electronic aids.

I'm completely aware of that. I'm just not to fussed for such a feature, to be honest. As an option, it would be fine, but it would be something I don't use.

I'm guessing flat shifting with damage off is still glitched and faster than driving properly though which is all the more reason the change it!

It's not glitched, it's just as you said, damage is off. What needs to happen is that there needs to be damage when hitting the rev limiter, as you'd still need to use the clutch regardless.

Customisation doesn't really effect it, if anything the fact you can switch gearboxes to improve shift times already could be played out with the physical change too.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how it wouldn't fit for me because I like to customize, and I wouldn't want to be restricted to an automatic only, just because that's how the car came in real life. Modifying a car to leave it automatic would just be a bore for me. That's why it would affect customization for me if it was a forced feature, but that's not what you're asking for.

Automatic degree of rotation on the wheel is super important though as trying to drive an F1 wheel with 900 degrees when it's meant to be ~360 is a nightmare.

Didn't mention, insinuate, or comment on this.

 

[Zero7159]

Anyway been playing some Forza on the pad first and now starting on the wheel, feels pretty good so far actually, better than the demo but will need to adjust some settings now as still felt a bit rubberbandy on stock settings.

Are you using your Accuforce yet with Forza 7? If so, are you getting force feedback? I have not yet tested it without GIMX, I did not get to it last night.

 

[F Inferno]

I'm completely aware of that. I'm just not to fussed for such a feature, to be honest. As an option, it would be fine, but it would be something I don't use.


It's not glitched, it's just as you said, damage is off. What needs to happen is that there needs to be damage when hitting the rev limiter, as you'd still need to use the clutch regardless.


That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how it wouldn't fit for me because I like to customize, and I wouldn't want to be restricted to an automatic only, just because that's how the car came in real life. Modifying a car to leave it automatic would just be a bore for me. That's why it would affect customization for me if it was a forced feature, but that's not what you're asking for.


Didn't mention, insinuate, or comment on this.

Well it is glitched in the sense you don't lose any speed when doing it, it's been an issue in all MS racing games since Project Cars and they just don't care! Fanatec CSR wheels even had an auto-clutch feature to do it for you, every other racing game implements a delay to stop this happening but I guess I shouldn't be surprised when the whole PI system isn't balanced anyway.

I guess I'm just more interested in knowing what a car would drive like in real life, much prefer stock cars rather than some upgraded abominations, may as well have fantasy cars at that point at least then we'd get a full damage model!

Are you using your Accuforce yet with Forza 7? If so, are you getting force feedback? I have not yet tested it without GIMX, I did not get to it last night.

No it hasn't shipped yet, should be sometime this week. Just on the CSW V2 at the moment kind of wondering why I upgraded now as it's a great wheel still, damn Black Friday sales lured me in .

 

[Zero7159]

No it hasn't shipped yet, should be sometime this week. Just on the CSW V2 at the moment kind of wondering why I upgraded now as it's a great wheel still, damn Black Friday sales lured me in .

I tried playing Forza 7 last night with my Accuforce without GIMX. I was able to map buttons, pedals and steering in game, but there is no FFB.

 

[F Inferno]

I tried playing Forza 7 last night with my Accuforce without GIMX. I was able to map buttons, pedals and steering in game, but there is no FFB.

Thanks for the update, that's annoying, perhaps I will go to the owners thread and see what the deal is, I'm guessing most people don't care about Forza.

 

[CSLACR]

I'm completely aware of that. I'm just not to fussed for such a feature, to be honest. As an option, it would be fine, but it would be something I don't use.


It's not glitched, it's just as you said, damage is off. What needs to happen is that there needs to be damage when hitting the rev limiter, as you'd still need to use the clutch regardless.


That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how it wouldn't fit for me because I like to customize, and I wouldn't want to be restricted to an automatic only, just because that's how the car came in real life. Modifying a car to leave it automatic would just be a bore for me. That's why it would affect customization for me if it was a forced feature, but that's not what you're asking for.


Didn't mention, insinuate, or comment on this.

On the subject of "flat-shifting", the amount of times you can do that to normal road cars is simply astounding.

Your car really shouldn't break down, and it really should be faster.

I've done as much as both, personally, at the drag strip, in real life in a real car.

I've owned multiple cars that I flat-shifted hundreds or possibly thousands of times, without anything ever breaking, not once.

 

[F Inferno]

On the subject of "flat-shifting", the amount of times you can do that to normal road cars is simply astounding.

Your car really shouldn't break down, and it really should be faster.

I've done as much as both, personally, at the drag strip, in real life in a real car.

I've owned multiple cars that I flat-shifted hundreds or possibly thousands of times, without anything ever breaking, not once.

As in foot to the floor hitting the rev limiter?

Also if it were faster and caused no damage then why has no race driver in history ever driven like that and why do all automatic and semi-automatic systems without a manual clutch also limit revs?

 

[CSLACR]

As in foot to the floor hitting the rev limiter?

Also if it were faster and caused no damage then why has no race driver in history ever driven like that and why do all automatic and semi-automatic systems without a manual clutch also limit revs?

Yes.

Because the time gained isn't worth the damage done. (I didnt say it causes no damage)

Just because something is too damaging to install as a factory setting, doesn't mean the car can't do it 1,000 times.
Race cars are driven hard for a long time and already subject to breakdown. Additional stress is even more important to avoid.

But running a drag race, or 3 laps around Laguna Seca?
No problem.

 

[th3o]

FM7 may not work with every wheel on PC, but they haven't been making games on PC as long as PCars has on Xbox.

Not sure about this argument. Where do you think Turn10 is developing their games on? PCs.

 

[UKMikey]

Not sure about this argument. Where do you think Turn10 is developing their games on? PCs.

That goes for a lot of developers which means all of their PC ports should work better on PC, right? Arkham Knights, GTA4 and Watch Dogs all say no.

I don't think developing on a platform is the same as developing for a platform. You have to optimise for the target system.

 

[F Inferno]

Not sure about this argument. Where do you think Turn10 is developing their games on? PCs.

Technically it's not entirely their fault, it's MS and their crappy UWP platform not having native support for USB devices like normal programs but it does show where MS gaming divisions mindset is that they weren't capable of realising it'ssomething people on PC would expect to work.