Football vs. American "Football"?

[DQuaN]

Goals from December in the English Premier League.



I wouldn't want to watch any other sport.

 

[Dave A]

I can agree with that 👍.

 

[daan]

As L4S mentions, that's the "Haka" of the All-Blacks. It was, formerly, a war-dance performed by Maori warriors, but was adopted by Kiwi sports teams. It's basically a chant of "You're going to get your 🤬 heads kicked in".

There's a few variations on the Haka, but one is used more than others - the "Ka Mate" Haka.

And other nations have Hakas too - Samoa, for one.

Scotland have tries that in the past, but the choice of chant was a bit wrong.

I mean, just who is frightened of the birdie song?

Goals from December in the English Premier League.

There are goals in there that would win goal of the season, any other season, but won't even feature in the top3 for December!

 

[FoolKiller]

I'd like to add that I don't think in anyway that American Football is boring to watch live. As long as you have a few mates with you and a few beers (as seems to be the norm) it'll be enjoyable.

You hit the nail on the head with this right here. A few mates and a few beers. Why do you think we like a sport with so many stops in play? If they didn't we would miss something when we went to get another beer. It is no coincidence that some of the most legendary NFL tradition comes from the area of America where they make beer.



Now, I chose American football mainly because it is the sport that I get to watch all the time and have the most knowledge of. I have watched football and rugby in person and they are both fun sports to watch, but as was said before, we aren't inundated with it the same way because it doesn't fit the commercial TV format.

Most Americans will be 16 before they actually get a chance to watch football and by then they won't care. Without knowing much about the sport it appears to be guys running around stealing a ball from each other, but never managing to score. It just doesn't make sense. When I was in school our physical education courses always had a soccer segment and because of this I was able to understand the positions. I didn't grasp the strategy until I was in college and students could go wqatch the games for free. I would sit in the upper level of the stadium (they set up soccer inside the football stadium) and watch from a good vantage point to study the strategy. It made sense, but it isn't as if I can just flip on the television and see a match being played at almost any time of day on the weekend.

American football, on the other hand, I get to watch as much of it as I can manage. I love going to a bar with the sports package and having every available game visible.

I will never discredit football players as not being athletic, but at the same hand non-Americans cannot say the same of American football players. They are both athletes and it is a different sport.


Now I would like to attempt to explain some of the accusations made at American football. First of all, they don't play both offense and defense because they are specialized. From the moment they played in high school they have trained for their particular position. Some of them switch around occasionally, but generally the majority of their life is spent training to be excellent at that one single thing, whether it be blocking, running, passing, catching, chasing a guy down and tackling him, or kicking. In some cases players can do multiple things, like LaDanian Tomlinson, who is a runner but can also pass and catch with natural ease.

As for why American football uses pads: try getting slammed by a 250lb-300lb brick wall running at you as fast as humanly possible (possibly multiple walls). Make all the fat jokes you want but those hits are hard enough to knock guys backwards as much as five yards. You have to put speed behind that 300lbs to do that to a 250lb man. These guys aren't wimps by any means, but it is about safety. I am sure when they first started playing as kids they didn't use pads. But when you get older and it becomes a career track you are protecting an investment. If you got millions of dollars a year to use your body like a battering ram I am sure you would cover it in armor as well. I had a roommate in college who played full-contact, no pads football and ended up with a shattered cheekbone.

And then some guys can keep going even after they lose their helmet.

That is Jeremy Shockey this past weekend. His helmet came off and he kept going.

Why they wear pads


I know rugby can hit just as hard, but wearing pads protects a multimillion dollar investment, as well as your life. Plus, every rugby player I have met was borderline insane, and they were just American college kids. I imagine a professional rugby player would be downright scary.

 

[Sureboss]

That Taylor volley just gets better doesn't it?

Also the Scholes volley was unbelievable.

I don't really get the 'It's to stop-start' argument, the game on last night (Man U vs Villa) there was practically no stoppages (though the 4th official still found 4 minutes).

 

[Dave A]

Yeah that game had me on the edge of my seat even though Man U wern't on top form the last thing I wanted was a re-match.

I know rugby can hit just as hard, but wearing pads protects a multimillion dollar investment, as well as your life. Plus, every rugby player I have met was borderline insane, and they were just American college kids. I imagine a professional rugby player would be downright scary.

I've had beers with Charlie Hodgson an England international, he didn't seem that insane to me, in fact he was very down to earth. I guess the insane ones could be just the American college kids you've met.

 

[dougiemeats]

I'll have to agree with FoolKiller. If (American) football players didn't wear pads and a helmet, we wouldn't see hits like these:



Wait until the end to see just how hard the hit was. Thanks to the helmet and pads, Pat Cowan can get right up and finish the game (in what turned out to be one of the biggest upsets of the season).

 

[Famine]

Why they wear pads

I know rugby can hit just as hard, but wearing pads protects a multimillion dollar investment, as well as your life. Plus, every rugby player I have met was borderline insane, and they were just American college kids. I imagine a professional rugby player would be downright scary.

They have pads due to escalation.

None of the impacts I saw in the video you posted would have been anywhere near as bad had neither player been wearing the armour. They wear armour as protection from the other guy wearing armour! Helmet use was made mandatory after serious injuries on non-helmet-wearing players from helmet-wearing players...


I cannot recall the last rugby-injury-related death in professional rugby.

 

[Diego440]

As for why American football uses pads: try getting slammed by a 250lb-300lb brick wall running at you as fast as humanly possible (possibly multiple walls). Make all the fat jokes you want but those hits are hard enough to knock guys backwards as much as five yards. You have to put speed behind that 300lbs to do that to a 250lb man. These guys aren't wimps by any means, but it is about safety. I am sure when they first started playing as kids they didn't use pads. But when you get older and it becomes a career track you are protecting an investment. If you got millions of dollars a year to use your body like a battering ram I am sure you would cover it in armor as well. I had a roommate in college who played full-contact, no pads football and ended up with a shattered cheekbone.

Also, the violence in the sport is caused by the amount of safety. The protective gear was introduced to help minimise the injuries, but the unintended consequence of the safety equipment has resulted in the increased violence in the game. Players now hurl themselves at one another at high speeds without a significant chance of injury.

In previous years with less padding, tackling more closely resembled tackles in Rugby, with less severe impacts and less injuries. Better helmets have allowed players to use their helmets as weapons. All this has caused the various leagues, especially the NFL, to implement a complicated series of penalties for various types of contact. Most recently, virtually any contact with the helmet of a defensive player on the quarterback, or any contact to the quarterback's head, is now a foul.

Despite protective equipment and rule changes to emphasize safety, injuries remain very common in football. It is increasingly rare, for example, for NFL quarterbacks or running backs (who take the most direct hits) to make it through an entire season without missing some time to injury.

 

[FoolKiller]

Also, the violence in the sport is caused by the amount of safety. The protective gear was introduced to help minimise the injuries, but the unintended consequence of the safety equipment has resulted in the increased violence in the game. Players now hurl themselves at one another at high speeds without a significant chance of injury.

The increased violence is why Americans love it. The guys will go at it full throttle and not hold back.


Tackling and pads aside, it seems to me that American football was very much like rugby until 1906 when the forward pass was first used. Before that it was more run based.

Eddie Cochem, the Saint Louis University coach, was the first to use the forward pass in 1906. However, the play was not used widely until Knute Rockne and Gus Dorais refined it while lifeguarding on a Lake Erie beach at Cedar Point in Sandusky, Ohio during the summer of 1913. That year, Jesse Harper, Notre Dame head coach, showed how the pass could be used by a smaller team to beat a bigger one. Once it was used against a major school on a national stage in this game, the forward pass rapidly gained popularity.

Forward passes were not permitted in Canadian football until 1929, but the tactic remained a minor part of the game for several years. Jack Jacobs of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers is recognized, not for inventing the forward pass, but for popularizing it in the Western Interprovincial Football Union, thus changing the Canadian game from a more run-dominated game to the passing game as seen today.

 

[Diego440]

Oddly enough, one of the sports with more deaths is horse racing... them jockeys get trampled all the time.

But still, rugby players may be less likely to get injured because the lack of protective gear makes them play a bit less offensively... or at least less likely to hurl themselves at 300lb brick walls with feet. Although in rugby injuries do occur, but aren't as life-threatening as those of NFL Football.

It's like in hockey... who's more likely to stand in front of a rubber puck going 80+ mph, the goalie with the cage mask or the defenseman with the plastic thingie over his face? Exactly.

What I also like about NFL Football is the diversity of scoring... there are five ways of scoring... well, six if you count the drop kick Doug Flutie did a couple of years ago. Flutie rocks!

 

[Famine]

The increased violence is why Americans love it.

I went to see a fight once, but an ice hockey match broke out in the middle of it.

It's like in hockey... who's more likely to stand in front of a rubber puck going 80+ mph, the goalie with the cage mask or the defenseman with the plastic thingie over his face? Exactly.

Try proper hockey. We have shinpads, and that's it. The ball can travel at up to 90mph and weighs about the same. Okay, the keeper is padded up to the hilt - but try the poor sod whose job it is in hurling...

 

[Sureboss]

There's quite a variation within Football too, if you include things like:

Penalties, Free Kicks, Corners.

 

[Midnight Runner]

There's quite a variation within Football too, if you include things like:

Penalties, Free Kicks, Corners.

Or if you count the ways the ball is actually kicked towards the goal:

volleys,headers,curved,backflip,heel... catch my drift no?

and BTW. best.save.ever. Scorpion kick FTW!

 

[Diego440]

well, I was talking of different ways of scoring different points. In NFL Football there's
- the touchdown: six points
- the extra point (valid only after a touchdown, and in which the ball is kicked over the crossbars): one point.
- The 2-point-conversion (replaces the extra point, and is only achieved with a run or pass into the endzone, after the TD): two points.
- Safety: 2 points
- Field goal: 3 points

There's even a sixth way, in which the QB drops the ball on the ground and kicks it through the crossbars (the drop-kick?). It hasn't been performed since 1941, although a QB named Doug Flutie (maybe one of the best ones of all time) did it last year for the first time since.

 

[dougiemeats]

The defense can also block the 'extra point' and return it for a point (or two?).

 

[ExigeEvan]

This is the worst argument you can make while trying to discredit any sport. If you don't like it, of course you'll think it's boring.

You didn't read all of that did you. I clearly stated I love playing American football but I just find it a complete bore to watch. Read twice, type once

Screw your padded armour this how we play.

I only saw the New Zealend V Samoa video yesterday and it gave me goose bumps.

My Dad was also at the Wales V New Zealand game where it was performed in the dressing room. He was not happy and neither were the Welsh fans (regardless of the score.). The Haka is a great thing to see.

Yeah, In soccer we don't need to do any of that to keep the fans from sleeping.

Nah, you just have amateur dramatics every 5 minutes

Orlando Pace is 325 pounds and would leave Jerome in the dust. 40 yards in 4.6 seconds.

I introduce to you, Jonah Lumu. New Zealend All Black legend.

Vital stats.
6 foot 5 inches
273 pounds
10.8 seconds to complete 100 yards.

But nither have speckies, do they

I do find Aussie Rule sentertaining, but can I ask, how many broken necks have there been? There's alot of falls from high up!

football and football > rugby and AFL

Both games called football have a point and aren't ludicrously dangerous. We like our players to be on the field next weekend, not just next season. Even through the pads our guys still break stuff every now and then.

You're joking me right? Kids play rugby, and they don't come off crying every game and in comparrison to the pro's they can be just as brutal.

The two worst incidents I have witness was a double fracture to the fore arm in a 7s tournament, and a cut just above the eye and a concussion. The latter 2 were split between two seperate players on the same team!

There are alot of laws that prevent serious injuries (high tackles, spear tackles * and shoulder barges)

*No not wrestling style, it's when you lift a guy up and plow him into the ground... head first!

American football has always been a blue-collar sport. The sport of the lower class workers, the manual labor and the greasy auto workers... it's the sport which represents that for the most part you don't need big brains to be a great player... that's why it's the most popular spectator sport in the US and why so many people like it.

Now, why are the Super Bowl winners World Champions?

Interesting first point. In England, rugby is seen as the upper-class sport, as it is often played in Private schools. Thus Soccer is the working mans game.

In Wales however, rugby is the working man's sport as the Miner's adopted it. Football on the other hand is almost frowned upon in the south Wales valleys (but popular up north and in Cardiff).

I've had beers with Charlie Hodgson an England international, he didn't seem that insane to me, in fact he was very down to earth. I guess the insane ones could be just the American college kids you've met.

I've seen half the Welsh rugby team out and about!

In Asda, Tesco and even Waterstones!

I cannot recall the last rugby-injury-related death in professional rugby.

No but there have been some instances of paralysis. All attributed to the scrums and all in the lower levels. Hence new laws that are to be used throughout the game.

well, I was talking of different ways of scoring different points. In NFL Football there's
- the touchdown: six points
- the extra point (valid only after a touchdown, and in which the ball is kicked over the crossbars): one point.
- The 2-point-conversion (replaces the extra point, and is only achieved with a run or pass into the endzone, after the TD): two points.
- Safety: 2 points
- Field goal: 3 points

There's even a sixth way, in which the QB drops the ball on the ground and kicks it through the crossbars (the drop-kick?). It hasn't been performed since 1941, although a QB named Doug Flutie (maybe one of the best ones of all time) did it last year for the first time since.

Now I know an American Football is different in shape to a rugby ball (Hell, I even have one), but I'm sure if my mates and myself can drop kick on down the park on less than ideal surfaces, professionals can drop kick one on nice level astro turf!

 

[dougiemeats]

Vital stats.
6 foot 5 inches
273 pounds
10.8 seconds to complete 100 yards.

According to Wikipedia, the world record for 109.36133 yards (100 meters) is 9.77 seconds. So the world record holder runs ~11.2 yards per second while this guy runs ~9.3 yards per second. That's insanely fast...

Now I know an American Football is different in shape to a rugby ball (Hell, I even have one), but I'm sure if my mates and myself can drop kick on down the park on less than ideal surfaces, professionals can drop kick one on nice level astro turf!

Yes, but he had to:

* kick it high enough so it wouldn't be blocked by the defenders
* kick it low enough to achieve the desired distance
* kick it through the goal post
* catch, drop, and kick the ball in less the time it takes for the defense to get to him

Even with a holder, many good kickers miss field goals due to the defense and game pressure. Drop-kicking a ball through the uprights makes it even harder.

Also, the "ideal" surface is not always ideal. I've seen many games where the turf was in horrible shape due to rain, snow, or the players tearing it up. I can't remember the turf condition in Doug Flutie's situation, but I assure you, this was no easy task - even for a professional.

 

[ExigeEvan]

According to Wikipedia, the world record for 109.36133 yards (100 meters) is 9.77 seconds. So the world record holder runs ~11.2 yards per second while this guy runs ~9.3 yards per second. That's pretty fast...

Sorry slight mistake there, the time is for 100 metres.

That still works out at
Word record sprint 100 metres @ 9.77 = 10.2m/s
Jonah Lomu 100 metres @ 10.8 = 9.26 m/s

Okay, that's 1 m/s less than a world record sprinter, but this guy is about twice the size.

 

[Dave A]

Yep, Lomuh is pretty fast, and definitely not built like a sprinter.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Yep, Lomuh is pretty fast, and definitely not built like a sprinter.

And rumour is, he might be coming back to Wales

Hmm, not to be a hypocrite, but I think it would be best if we stopped talking about Lomu....

 

[Diego440]

Now I know an American Football is different in shape to a rugby ball (Hell, I even have one), but I'm sure if my mates and myself can drop kick on down the park on less than ideal surfaces, professionals can drop kick one on nice level astro turf!

I'm not saying it's too hard to do it. It's just that with so many other choices of scoring, the drop-kick is the least used... probably why it hasn't been used since.

I've seen very little of rugby to be able to make a positive assumption, but I'm going to guess that since the play doesn't end as often as it does in NFL football, the players have more than one chance to do a drop kick during a drive.

 

[Danoff]

I'll have to take the time to read this thread later. At the moment I only have time to post, and since my opinion was asked, I'll give it.

American Football >> Soccer IMHO

Do I know why American Football is called football? Not really, though the game is about getting the ball from one end of the field to the other essentially on foot.

The starts and stops to American football are fantastic, because they allow for more strategy to be inserted into play. You analyze the results of the last play (and so does the audience), and you consider where adjustments need to be made, plan, and then execute that plan. There is time to sit with the team and communicate. There's time for leadership and strategy to be properly formulated off the field but during the game.

Not to mention all of the different types of atheletes on the field at once. You've got the big blocking guys who are like sumo wrestlers. You've got the tall fast, sure-handed wide recievers. You've got the in-between blocking tight ends, you've got the relatively weak but quick thinking accurate quarterback. You've got defenders who are fast. Defenders who are big. Defenders who are trying to get in the mind of the quarterback. Then you've got kickers, special teams guys, etc... how many different types of athletic ability are displayed in any given play? So many, that you need a few seconds after the play to go over it again in instant replay to enjoy it all.

The achillies heel of soccer for me is that lack of scoring, and that lack of any real progress toward scoring. Like hockey, there are way too few goals in a game, and each goal is almost completely unexpected. Sure, you knew they'd managed to get the ball set up properly, you watched them set up the offense, you saw the kick, you saw the goalie try to react - but did you really know it would go in? It didn't go in the 10 previous times, so why does any of the rest of that count as real progress toward a goal? But in American football, you can see progress being made, you can see yardage being gained. You see when the team essentially has 3 points in their back pocket and watch them sacrfice it for another 4. Even if the team punts they keep the field position they gained and attempt not to lose it on defense. The game can go between many possessions that are scoreless, but the progress toward scoring is visible. There are also many WAYS to score. The field goal, the extra point, the 2 point conversion, the safety, and of course the touchdown.

There are wild crazy swings, so you can never really count the other team out of the game, but at the same time you see real progress as the game goes on.

PLUS you've got the whole clock management system which requires quite a bit of strategy in-and-of itself. You've got multiple types of offense, from running, to passing, to trick plays. You've got offense on defense as defenders sacrfice the catch to try to make an interception.

Plus, you've got the raw brutal violence of the sport as you get to watch guys get flipped into the air and knocked around.

That's why I love football and why I don't watch soccer.

...more to come.

 

[Sureboss]

- but did you really know it would go in?

So you enjoy NFL because you know when they are going to score?

 

[Danoff]

So you enjoy NFL because you know when they are going to score?

Well obviously you don't know for sure. But you can watch as the probability for success go up and up. I like to see progress being made throughout the game - toward each point. In soccer and hockey progress is undone routinely in a matter of seconds, and progress is redone with almost the same speed. Football just has a bit more suspense and anticipation because the game doesn't swing so wildly back and forth. You're watching as the tension mounts in the defense, and the pressure mounts from the offense. There is no goalie at the endzone waiting to undo the last 5 minutes of effort, but there is the highly unlikely possibility of something like that happening, so surprise is still in order.

Also, I forgot to mention above that I really like the replay system that makes sure the rules are enforced correctly.

 

[Sureboss]

Oh right.

Soccer will never get full technological advancements imo, though Goal Line technology may be introduced. I like the unpredictability of Soccer and of course the treasure that is the FA Cup.

 

[Danoff]

I like the unpredictability of Soccer and of course the treasure that is the FA Cup.

Any given baseball game is difficult to predict as well - but that doesn't make it a good sport, that makes it a very bad one. The better team should win most of the time. That makes the sport both predictable and fair instead of a crapshoot. When you only get two points in the entire game and it's enough to win the game for you, you start dealing with a lot of luck.

 

[Evolution.]

I'm just going to add this in to fuel the fire. No other reason .

 

[dougiemeats]

Danoff,

I'm with you up until the scoring argument...

I've seen college basketball games that have a combined score of less than one NBA team'stypical score per game - yet the college game was more exciting.

 

[Dave A]

Any given baseball game is difficult to predict as well - but that doesn't make it a good sport, that makes it a very bad one. The better team should win most of the time. That makes the sport both predictable and fair instead of a crapshoot. When you only get two points in the entire game and it's enough to win the game for you, you start dealing with a lot of luck.

In football the better team does win most of the time. That doesn't mean the better team should win every time, if a sport is too predicatable it's boring. You might as well just award the points and skip the game. Personally one reason I prefer football is because there's fewer goals, it keeps you on the edge of your seat more. Do you go defensive after getting a 1 goal lead or do you plough on with attacking play trying to get that 2 goal lead leaving you defence a bit weaker. There's a lot of tactics in football, different formations take different types of play to get around, some teams play to take out the mid-field, some teams play thruogh the center. Some teams play behind the ball and only attack on the break aways. The formation in football can change several times in a game, you'll get one player starting on the left wing, switching to the right then back to the left. Or you'll get a player starting in mid-field and finishing in attack or vice versa. Theres a large technical aspect to football, playing offside traps, man marking and prepared set peices. That's not to say there isn't a big tactical aspect to Aemrican football, it's just the way they're implemented in the sport imo is much better in football.