Formula 1 Etihad Airways Abu Dhabi Grand Prix 2021Formula 1

[WiisardNic]

Another thing I noticed re-watching the whole safetycar situation which I personally didn't saw anyone talking/writing about: The other loosers. In this case especially Danny Ric/McL.

Before the SC he was around 1-2 seconds behind Ocon on P11 and had fresher tyres than Esteban. So there was good potential to steal P10 from him. As we know it would've been P10 anyway and P9 possible with the retirement of Perez.

As the SC came on track he was the first car in the midfield pack gambling and pitting for soft tyres which lost him 2 places to Leclerc and Vettel on to P13 (P12 after Perez got out). But the problem the gamble didn't work wasn't his ability. It was just due to the fact he came out behind Max. He was the first car not getting waved-by because Max was already in front of him. And that just to the fact Masi decided to not stick to the rules and the normal behaviour letting anybody in the same (back)lap by. Knowing every point is pure $ I would be absolutely furious as Zac Brown. He'd have close to 1.5 laps to light up his tyres before the pack of backrunners got to their final lap under green and the chance to overtake Vettel, Lec, Oco, Alo and Norris, all on tyres with minimum 20 to 40 laps driven was just robbed.It it so wrong robbing someone points and $ just to the fact the WDC-leader who is second in the race is in front of him and they want to get a one lap "battle" for the WDC without beeing fair and applying their normal procedures.

Very good point. Try listening to Stroll's team radio on the last two laps.

 

[McLaren]

Now apparently, unlike people who think this isn't a thing that's happened repeatedly this season, Mercedes seemed to be acutely aware of it and did not want the championship to be determined by whether Verstappen could be trusted to be alongside Hamilton in a situation where it's the championship or bust.

Wasn't everyone? I could've sworn before the race even took place, Max, Horner, Toto, Lewis, & anyone else involved were let know that the stewards would be watching for any misconduct because the theories, "If Max rams off Lewis, he wins the title even if he DNFs as well" was such a gigantic talking point, it had to be addressed.

 

[Grayfox]

View attachment 1099503

As much as I don't like having this race litigated, the alternative is the FIA will escape any further scrutiny. I know there are people that want to be diplomatic about all this or are too afraid to speak their minds believing that is the better route to take but they would only be covering their eyes on a serious problem that is front and center. This has happened too many times already.

I still think that the best outcome at this juncture is Mercedes agreeing to drop the protest in exchange for a formal apology from the FIA and a commitment to meaningful reforms. Max would be fully free to enjoy his title and Lewis would add to his legacy as the driver that chose the integrity of the sport over personal accomplishments.

Was thinking more of this scene

 

[ScottPuss20]

Ultimately we need the least damaging outcome, which will likely be annulling the race.

This will only serve to cover up the mistakes of the stewards.

 

[Famine]

It's clear from your posts you are a Red Bull/Max hater.

Verstappen is one of the best drivers we've seen in years, and it's great that he's challenging Hamilton. He's definitely a world champion at some point.

Such #hate. Many despise. Wow.

What I do hate is ****, dangerous driving (and it being lauded). I don't care who's doing it, but if that's happening with one guy more often, that name's going to come up more often. Like Maldonado's did; Verstappen's just faster.

Just for a laugh, I've also been repeatedly accused of hating Hamilton on here. Guess I just hate everyone.

I'll always stand by the fact that if Austria 2019 meant Max didn't get penalised, neither should have Rosberg in Austria 2016.

Do you know what the difference was? Michael Masi.

After Whiting died in 2019, Masi took over the role and in mid-2019 decided to bring back the black/white flag, saying he was re-introducing it after a lapse of about a decade to serve as a "yellow card" (his words), where Whiting preferred to radio team bosses about conduct as a first warning.

The problem is that he decides on the B/W, not the stewards, and while the flag and penalties are actually independent of each other (a penalty can be issued by the stewards at the same time as Masi waves the B/W, or instead of it, or the B/W can be waved without a penalty) it's introduced a layer of confusion which seems to have resulted in the stewards not issuing penalties for anything except collisions ever since - the B/W flag seems to be regarded as the permission slip for them to then look at stuff, but not before.

And that has clearly had consequences. Austria 2021 was an absolute aberration where, for some reason, it was done right for a change, and I have no explanation why.

This will only serve to cover up the mistakes of the stewards.

No, not really.

 

[toastet]

Very good point. Try listening to Stroll's team radio on the last two laps.

I will. And yes, he was the other one with the gamble behind Danny. Mick Schumacher was the last one. There would've been a chance for the only point(s) for Haas this season...

 

[ScottPuss20]

No, not really.

Erasing the result completely is just another way of saying "nothing to see here". Let the results stand so we can learn from the failings in the future.

 

[Famine]

Erasing the result completely is just another way of saying "nothing to see here". Let the results stand so we can learn from the failings in the future.

That's not what annulling it means, and given that we were talking about the Court of Arbitration for Sport in that conversation it will be a ruling which includes a judgment on the failings of the stewards and officials involved. Which is also what I said I wanted (alongside Masi being escorted from the premises - and any collusion investigated and punished).

Here's the relevant post to which the reply you quoted was a reply of a reply to:

In sport if it's found that officials have broken the laws of the game (rather than just being wrong about it), the game is invalidated - and sometimes it's restaged, which I think is unwieldy in the case of motorsport. Given that this will likely head to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, that's the probable outcome if Masi is found to have done so.

It's a fair outcome. Neither driver did anything wrong, so they should not be punished for driving to the conditions created, and annulling the race punishes neither because it doesn't affect their outcomes. We can't say Hamilton would have won had the officials followed the law correctly, so there's no reasonable cause to inflate his outcome.

Another possibility is to rewinding the race result to the last completed lap before the SC - neutralising the race at that point. That would also be a fair outcome, although it would result in a change of destination for the driver title; this is the very definition of a championship being decided in an office, which I'm pretty sure is anathema generally.


One exception to all of the above is if there is any case for collusion between Red Bull and Michael Masi (or anyone above him). That should result in full-season disqualification for Red Bull and at least a further season's suspension, as well as criminal proceedings against all individuals in position of responsibility: Masi, Masi's superiors, Marko, and Horner.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Here's the relevant post to which the reply you quoted was a reply of a reply to:

Sorry I didn't see that post.

 

[WiisardNic]

Such #hate. Many despise. Wow.

What I do hate is ****, dangerous driving and it being lauded. If that's happening with one guy more often, that name's going to come up more often. Like Maldonado's did; Verstappens just faster.

Fair point, but I don't believe Verstappen is as much of an issue on the track as Maldonado was. Again, Imola and Barcelona (since you have brought up Imola previously) are perfectly in the remit of what's apparently been acceptable since 2019. Austria 2021 was a bit of a black mark for consistency though..

Do you know what the difference was? Michael Masi.

After Whiting died in 2019, Masi took over the role and in mid-2019 decided to bring back the black/white flag, saying he was re-introducing it after a lapse of about a decade to serve as a "yellow card" (his words), where Whiting preferred to radio team bosses about conduct as a first warning.

The problem is that he decides on the B/W, not the stewards, and while the flag and penalties are actually independent of each other (a penalty can be issued by the stewards at the same time as Masi waves the B/W, or instead of it, or the B/W can be waved without a penalty) it's introduced a layer of confusion which seems to have resulted in the stewards not issuing penalties for anything except collisions ever since - the B/W flag seems to be regarded as the permission slip for them to then look at stuff, but not before.

And that has clearly had consequences. Austria 2021 was an absolute aberration where, for some reason, it was done right for a change, and I have no explanation why.

Very good point.

 

[Famine]

Fair point, but I don't believe Verstappen is as much of an issue on the track as Maldonado was.

Indeed not! Not much of a bar to clear though

 

[WiisardNic]

Indeed not! Not much of a bar to clear though

Back to the point I'm trying to make, is it's fair enough to bring it into the discussion, I can concede that. But to say things like this is a bit over-the-top towards "guilty until proven innocent":

Ultimately, anything Mercedes did other than what it did would have resulted in ceding track position to Verstappen. We've seen eight times this season what the result of that is, including once in this very same race. It didn't want that to happen, precisely because it would have resulted in a championship being decided by stewarding decisions (which Mercedes knows cannot be relied upon).

IF rules were equally applied, Verstappen would have missed about three races this year through licence point totting-up bans and disqualification.

Safety Car regulation issues aside, Max was as clean as a whistle in Abu Dhabi, so there's no need to bring in "If Lewis pitted, he would be near Verstappen and that would result in a championship being decided by the stewards" into the discussion.

 

[Redneckchef]

Back to the point I'm trying to make, is it's fair enough to bring it into the discussion, I can concede that. But to say things like this is a bit over-the-top towards "guilty until proven innocent":


Safety Car regulation issues aside, Max was as clean as a whistle in Abu Dhabi, so there's no need to bring in "If Lewis pitted, he would be near Verstappen and that would result in a championship being decided by the stewards" into the discussion.

So what I am seeing from a small group of Max (or sometimes very aggressive racing) defenders is that running a car off track is an acceptable form of passing? At what point is it acceptable? Is it only because of getting your car to the apex first? If this is OK then why brake the necessary amount to make the corner? This attitude is becoming far more widespread, and I think the massive paved runoff areas are the reason. It seems to remove the right of an outside car from ever attempting to defend a position. This is garbage and they need to move back to allowing the outside car room to remain on track, even if of 2 wheels. The fact they considered Max still on track even though only thrash bits of his inside wheels remained inside the lines is poor racing management to me, especially since he was attempting a pass up the inside.

His aggression aside, I think the move and Hamilton's reaction as he was obviously expecting a wild lunge at some point evened themselves out and left us to racing.

The eventual disaster could have been prevented simply by following the sporting regulations in a timely manner. Had they let the lapped cars through and Max blasted past without contact contact awesome. Poor luck for Hamilton with the timing, but that's racing. Had they not let the lapped cars through due to time constraints, or let it finish under SC, again, that's just luck and it happens. Had they red flagged it and had a restart and showdown, awesome, fair play.

But to flagrantly change and alter the rules on a whim with no precedence in a way that greatly disadvantages a driver stinks horribly. I don't entertain for a moment that Masi was wanting to help Red Bull, I think he just wanted a show and did it in the most inept and ham fisted way available. But that kind of incompetence and lack of consistency has been happening all year and if nothing else I hope Merc does take this to court to embarras and punish the FIA over their actual refusal to officiate and manage this series in a competent and consistent manner

 

[WiisardNic]

1. So what I am seeing from a small group of Max (or sometimes very aggressive racing) defenders is that running a car off track is an acceptable form of passing? At what point is it acceptable? Is it only because of getting your car to the apex first? If this is OK then why brake the necessary amount to make the corner? This attitude is becoming far more widespread, and I think the massive paved runoff areas are the reason. It seems to remove the right of an outside car from ever attempting to defend a position. This is garbage and they need to move back to allowing the outside car room to remain on track, even if of 2 wheels.
2. The fact they considered Max still on track even though only thrash bits of his inside wheels remained inside the lines is poor racing management to me, especially since he was attempting a pass up the inside.

1. Yes, it is if done correctly. Lewis did it in Jeddah, as one prime recent example.
While what I'm about to link isn't an "official code" of such, I think overall this article covers overtaking etiquette well. #5 would relate well to the Abu Dhabi incident, whereas #7 covers all these 'crowding the track' issues we have seen.

The rules of racing

The Formula 1 message boards have recently been abuzz with discussion of the Rosberg/Hamilton collision at Spa 2014. From these discussions it has emerged that many fans are not well acquainted wit…

f1metrics.wordpress.com

2. The track is (and was in Abu Dhabi by the meeting notes) defined by the white lines. Max was on track, and it doesn't matter if there was only bits of his wheels. 2 wheels were on the track at all times, and that's quite clear.

His aggression aside, I think the move and Hamilton's reaction as he was obviously expecting a wild lunge at some point evened themselves out and left us to racing.

Hamilton's reaction was "Woah, I didn't expect him there, I left the door wide open"

 

[GingerBredMan]

Safety Car regulation issues aside, Max was as clean as a whistle in Abu Dhabi

Call me a #hater if you want but Max divebombed Lewis on Lap one and nearly ran off track in the process.

 

[Grayfox]

If the tables were reversed and Max was in front and Lewis won, would people be complaining?
I dont think they would be as vocal about it.

Call me a #hater if you want but Max divebombed Lewis on Lap one and nearly ran off track in the process.

And Lewis gained an advantage, you dont go from 0.5s infront to 1.5s and be told "you have the dont have to give advantage up"

 

[WiisardNic]

Call me a #hater if you want but Max divebombed Lewis on Lap one and nearly ran off track in the process.

Hamilton left the door open. Verstappen stayed on the circuit. There's no difference between that, and the type of moves Ricciardo has been lauded for.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Hamilton left the door open. Verstappen stayed on the circuit. There's no difference between that, and the type of moves Ricciardo has been lauded for.

But all the time you have to leave a space!

 

[Monkey Man]

There's no difference between that, and the type of moves Ricciardo has been lauded for.

Daniel doesn't typically run dudes off when executing those moves; they're just pure, unadulterated braking skill IMHO.

He wouldn't be "famous" for them in a good way if it were otherwise.

 

[GingerBredMan]

Hamilton left the door open. Verstappen stayed on the circuit. There's no difference between that, and the type of moves Ricciardo has been lauded for.

And the guy he was overtaking had to go off track to avoid a crash

 

[pumaATTACK]

Max’s line into turn 6 was so off the apex….

It was a super late lunge that he was lucky to avoid a crash only because Lewis was aware of him.


I hate that this driving style is now ok and fans are loving the “aggressive” style. It’s reckless at best.

 

[pumaATTACK]

If the tables were reversed and Max was in front and Lewis won, would people be complaining?
I dont think they would be as vocal about it.

And Lewis gained an advantage, you dont go from 0.5s infront to 1.5s and be told "you have the dont have to give advantage up"

That was likely to deter Max was from doing that move again. If Lewis can just take the escape line without penalty then Max’s lunges are pointless.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

 

[WiisardNic]

Max’s line into turn 6 was so off the apex….

It was a super late lunge that he was lucky to avoid a crash only because Lewis was aware of him.


I hate that this driving style is now ok and fans are loving the “aggressive” style. It’s reckless at best.

Hamilton avoids the crash, because the door is left open, he begins to turn in and "Oh, there's a car there now!"
So, he jinks back to avoid the accident (which is fair), and because of the situation he put himself into, Max has now started to defend the gap he found himself in. Lewis went off track (again, no issue), but didn't need to zoom off and cut the next corner. FIA thinks he gave back the advantage he gained by doing that, fair enough.

 

[McLaren]

If the tables were reversed and Max was in front and Lewis won, would people be complaining?
I dont think they would be as vocal about it.

Assuming the entirety of Red Bull's fanbase wouldn't be making the exact same, legitimate arguments?

Some of us, myself included, have already said the issue is still there, even if Lewis held off Max and won.

 

[Imari]

But all the time you have to leave a space!

That's not true. You can absolutely shut the door on people if they're not alongside enough. It's a standard tactic.

The thing is it's usually far later into corner exit than we've been seeing recently, traditionally a driver would simply follow the racing line to track out and run their opponent out of track to the point that they would have to yield. T4 at Bahrain is pretty notorious for it.

The "modern" style seems to be taking that idea and realising that you can do the same thing off the normal racing line. If you have track position, something that's pretty poorly defined at the best of times and seems even worse this year, you get to take your line and it's up to the other driver to get out of the way.

What Max does in T6 is a very non-standard line that seemed purely for the purpose of blocking Hamilton. As it stands the stewards allow this (mostly, although inconsistency of calls is also a discussion to be had), and with that as an option you'd have to be a fool not to use it. I don't really like the style, I don't think randomly sending it up the inside with the intention of blocking your opponent from being on the track leads to particularly strategically interesting racing and I think it's less predictable meaning that drivers are less able to safely race wheel to wheel. But until the rules change, that's a valid technique and all the drivers should be looking to use it.

Honestly, I sort of wish they would all start doing it so that the FIA would see how dumb and dangerous it is and create some clearer rules that mandate a more respectful driving style.

And the guy he was overtaking had to go off track to avoid a crash

There's an argument there that Hamilton should have let Verstappen crash into him. But it's hard on lap 1 of a GP to make a decision that would put the title in the hands of stewards who have shown that they view Verstappen's banzai tactics very favourably, especially when you've got at best a few tenths of a second to do so and you're also busy driving a very, very fast car.

If the tables were reversed and Max was in front and Lewis won, would people be complaining?
I dont think they would be as vocal about it.

That's not really the point though. Even if nobody was complaining, this would still be an issue of sporting integrity. There's plenty of people who really don't care that much which one of these two incredible drivers won, but still have an issue that the title was decided by the officials making a call with no precedent and very, very dubious support from the rulebook (if you read it upside down, squint, and don't really understand the English language).

The officials should be there to ensure that the race is run safely, fairly and consistently. They are not there to ensure that it's a good show, or make sure that Max and Lewis are fighting head to head on the final lap. If that happens, cool. If it doesn't, they shouldn't bend the rules to make it happen.

What happened was essentially match fixing, something that's considered to be bad in most competitive sports. People should be vocal about this no matter who won, because if this is how it works going forward then why should anyone care about the results?

 

[Monkey Man]

What happened was essentially match fixing, something that's considered to be bad in most competitive sports. People should be vocal about this no matter who won, because if this is how it works going forward then why should anyone care about the results?

Amen, brother.

 

[O604]

Hypothetical question (to anyone)

What if Hamilton had ended his race early and the title was already decided. Another driver (pick anyone) was in the lead the whole race, then exact same ending.

I was thinking this would be even worse.

 

[Monkey Man]

Well the result wouldn't have really mattered then, would it have?

If Max placed 2nd and Lewis was already-out, the championship would've been his.

EDIT:
I think I see where you're coming from now. It would've exposed favouritism more-blatantly perhaps - favouring a rich team over a "poor" one. That would've been a terrible look, as is the current one, but maybe more so.

 

[CarreraGT]

And all he had to do was break his own rules and put one of the competitors at a serious sporting disadvantage. All while screwing over the rest of the field bar one particular driver.

2012 finished under a safety car, noone was too upset about that, and at least that gave us a legitimate championship.

You mean the rule that says the race director has discretion over the deployment of the safety car? The same race director who had the unanimous support of all teams prior to the race to do whatever he could to allow the race to finish under green flag conditions? If Mercedes had pitted Hamilton for tyres or if Hamilton had somehow miraculously held onto the lead on old tyres, nobody would even be talking about this. Just people who don't like the result whinging