Formula 1 Etihad Airways Abu Dhabi Grand Prix 2021Formula 1

[Samus]

The same race director who had the unanimous support of all teams prior to the race to do whatever he could to allow the race to finish under green flag conditions?

You've said this a couple of times now, do you have a source on that? I can't find anything of such agreement. Besides even if there was such an agreement, I'm pretty sure it was still an agreement within the rules. Not like they'd have agreed for Masi to be able to add laps on if LAT crashed on the penultimate lap.

If Mercedes had pitted Hamilton for tyres or if Hamilton had somehow miraculously held onto the lead on old tyres, nobody would even be talking about this. Just people who don't like the result whinging

I don't care who won. Max is champion and that's that. As a fan of F1 I do care how the person won, and wanting to see that it doesn't happen again because I don't agree with it. The rules are pointless if the race director can just do what he wants, so it needs to be absolutely clarified in black and white going forward what can and can't happen.

Saying "Things would be different if things were different" is a rather pointless statement. They're not, what happened happened and that's what we're discussing.

 

[Grayfox]

You've said this a couple of times now, do you have a source on that? I can't find anything of such agreement. Besides even if there was such an agreement, I'm pretty sure it was still an agreement within the rules

It was a Gentlemans Agreement
Driver61 also mentioned it.

 

[Samus]

It was a Gentlemans Agreement
Driver61 also mentioned it.

But my question still stands, according to who? I'm not denying it existed, I'd just like to see a quote from someone that it did and what specifically was "agreed".

 

[Grayfox]

But my question still stands, according to who? I'm not denying it existed, I'd just like to see a quote from someone that it did and what specifically was "agreed".

Formula 1 racing where possible will be settled under green flag conditions

 

[Samus]

Right, so "Where possible" is quite different to "Do whatever he could" (and that is still an "apparently", no actual source). There are still going to be occasions where it's simply not possible, although ironically this race wasn't one. They could've ended under green within the rules if they left lapped cars in place or if Masi got a wriggle on and moved them all out of the way. He did neither.

But anyway, we're all pretty much just repeating ourselves at this point. We all have our views, all we can do now is wait to see if there is any action within the FIA. I'm expecting not, but we'll see. I certainly don't expect or want to see the title overturned.

 

[Grayfox]

Guess Masi interpreted "where possible" in his own way.

 

[Samus]

Cause Masi interpreted "where possible" in his own way.

Which is ultimately the crux of the whole issue. Can Masi just make his own rules that override the written rules. FIA say yes, Merc lawyers are going to argue no.

 

[Grayfox]

Which is ultimately the crux of the whole issue. Can Masi just make his own rules that override the written rules. FIA say yes, Merc lawyers are going to argue no.

Well we see teams "Bend" the rules about car design, they find these loopholes.
Maybe Masi used one.

Ferrari with their engine thing.
RBs flexing wing.

 

[Rossell2]

Well we see teams "Bend" the rules about car design, they find these loopholes.
Maybe Masi used one.

Ferrari with their engine thing.
RBs flexing wing.

That's the sort of thing you'd expect from the teams because they're the competitors.

The FIA are meant to be consistent.

 

[WiisardNic]

But my question still stands, according to who? I'm not denying it existed, I'd just like to see a quote from someone that it did and what specifically was "agreed".

The only source I can see of this existing, is a reference to it in the Stewards' decision.

 

[DG_Silva]

Well we see teams "Bend" the rules about car design, they find these loopholes.
Maybe Masi used one.

Ferrari with their engine thing.
RBs flexing wing.

There's a difference between 'let's make the wing flex once we hit a certain load' or holding extra fuel within the system after the fuel flow sensor (which effectively is cheating), and rewriting the rules in the fly.

A closer analogy would be more like Ferrari saying 'we can't design a powerful engine around 100kg/h fuel flow rate, so we're going to make one with 120kg/h and when found out, it's because we're Ferrari' and get away with it (although they did, but that's another matter).

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

You mean the rule that says the race director has discretion over the deployment of the safety car? The same race director who had the unanimous support of all teams prior to the race to do whatever he could to allow the race to finish under green flag conditions? If Mercedes had pitted Hamilton for tyres or if Hamilton had somehow miraculously held onto the lead on old tyres, nobody would even be talking about this. Just people who don't like the result whinging

If Article 15.3 purportedly gives Masi the authority to use the safety car as he pleases, then what is the purpose of having any articles about the safety car in the first place? Furthermore, to take that interpretation to the extreme, Masi could hypothetically ask the safety car to go out on track and damage a competitor's car or make donuts under green conditions because he can.

With regards to whatever agreement was made about trying to finish the race under green conditions, I have not seen anything that tells me this was formally documented. In a legal dispute, this becomes highly problematic when there is a written contract in place and here, it's the regulations. Short of this other agreement explicitly allowing Masi to override the regulations, he was still bound by them.

Well we see teams "Bend" the rules about car design, they find these loopholes.
Maybe Masi used one.

Ferrari with their engine thing.
RBs flexing wing.

As the governing body, the FIA's responsibility is to close loopholes, not use them.

 

[Terronium-12]

You guys aren't blaming Masi for playing a part

That is quite literally what everyone is doing, and have been doing since this past weekend but go off, I guess.

you're accusing Masi of throwing the race

That is a thing that he did by literally changing the rules on-the-fly. Is this fact lost on you, or do you not care to acknowledge it and would instead continue to pretend everyone has it out for Masi...just because?

and arguing that RB's title should be stripped because it was rigged.

Let's see:

Rigged (verb): Manage or conduct (something) fraudulently so as to produce a result or situation that is advantageous to a particular person.

A shot and a reach in the dark, but explain to me how the end result benefitted anyone other than Verstappen? Keep in mind that, again, no one here thinks Max or Red Bull did anything wrong. Because they didn't. And before you chime in with the ridiculous notion that Mercedes were sitting ducks because Max changed onto new tires: no. No, they were not.

and even if they make mistakes

You keep using this word. Stop using this word.

it's up to the teams to weather storm.

You mean the storm of Michael Masi, FIA Race Director, changing the rules on the spot? That storm? I don't know how you weather that storm.

Merc just sat on their hands apparently oblivious to the idea that anything might change while RB prepared for what might happen.

My point is that I don't even care if the refs made a mistake because their calls stand and the game continues.

And there's that word again.

The final play of the game ended with Ham on exhausted tires unable to keep up, and that's a mistake that could've been fixed dozens of laps beforehand.

Why would it need fixing "dozens of laps beforehand" when Lewis was 11 (?) seconds ahead of Verstappen and him not being the slightest bit of a threat? That would have given up track position.

You guys are all-in on some conspiracy level stuff and it's weird.

Oh. So you do think we're picking on Masi just because?

 

[MagpieRacer]

It's quite interesting, there is lots of hashtags trending on Twitter along the lines of #JusticeForHamilton and so on, it makes me wonder if they know what the likely outcomes of this are? I mean, to a degree we're all in the dark as to what truly may or may not happen, but the likelihood is that Verstappen will retain the title, whether the final race gets annulled, kept as is or whatever, I honestly cannot see a scenario where the champion will be changed. I could be wrong, but I cannot see it happening owing to where the fault lies.

It's a noble effort from his fan-base, but I feel their expectations are misplaced.

 

[Jimlaad43]

The thing about taking the title from Verstappen is, he didn't actually do anything wrong in this situation. The stars aligned and it's just mismanagement from Race Control that made the correct decision to let the lapped cars go become such a mess. When Masi said we're not letting Lapped Cars go, it went against pretty much every other Safety Car this season, followed by Horner and Wolff moaning over the radio and the half-hearted "get the ones between Lewis and Max out the way". Verstappen was gifted the opportunity for a last lap pass, which he took. The track was clear to go racing, so there was no reason to finish the race under Safety Car.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

The thing about taking the title from Verstappen is, he didn't actually do anything wrong in this situation. The stars aligned and it's just mismanagement from Race Control that made the correct decision to let the lapped cars go become such a mess. When Masi said we're not letting Lapped Cars go, it went against pretty much every other Safety Car this season, followed by Horner and Wolff moaning over the radio and the half-hearted "get the ones between Lewis and Max out the way". Verstappen was gifted the opportunity for a last lap pass, which he took. The track was clear to go racing, so there was no reason to finish the race under Safety Car.

It was the wrong decision to let lapped cars go as that would mean race should end under safety car. He should have just called in safety car if he wanted race to end under Green. It is risk Red Bull took by pitting Max and potentially putting him behind more lapped cars and could have been costly if rules were followed. What Masi did was unbelievable in the end favouring only one driver and ended up breaking the rules in two ways.

 

[MagpieRacer]

It was the wrong decision to let lapped cars go as that would mean race should end under safety car. He should have just called in safety car if he wanted race to end under Green. It is risk Red Bull took by pitting Max and potentially putting him behind more lapped cars and could have been costly if rules were followed. What Masi did was unbelievable in the end favouring only one driver and ended up breaking the rules in two ways.

No, it was the wrong decision to let some lapped cars pass rather than either all or none, and it could have been done sooner. Had it been given the go as soon as Latifi was cleared, there wouldn't be an issue because that is how almost every safety car period plays out. The indecision in doing so and then the decision to only let some cars go are the big issues.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

No, it was the wrong decision to let some lapped cars pass rather than either all or none, and it could have been done sooner. Had it been given the go as soon as Latifi was cleared, there wouldn't be an issue because that is how almost every safety car period plays out. The indecision in doing so and then the decision to only let some cars go are the big issues.

The safety car would have had to stay out for another lap if they allowed any cars to pass and race would have ended up finishing under safety car robbing Max a chance to win. Only option available was to not allow cars to unlap themselves and pull in safety car as originally planned.

 

[Famine]

I honestly cannot see a scenario where the champion will be changed.

It's possible - if it reaches CAS, pretty much any outcome is - but it shouldn't be the outcome.

Whatever Verstappen has done this season, he's only driven to the rules to which he is subjected. Whether or not that's an entirely different set of rules is... not his problem. You can only play the cards you were given, and he played them. The title is, and should be, his.

The best anyone can hope for is recognition that Hamilton was screwed out of any chance at it by corrupt officials. That might "taint" Verstappen's title with an asterisk, and be something discussed on GTPlanet in 40 years when people bring up controversial championships, but it won't change anything in the statistics. Any subsequent investigation into who was corrupt and why is its own further issue.


One exception to that is if it can be proven Verstappen knew he was benefitting from collusion between Red Bull and either Masi or Masi's superiors (as with Crashgate and Alonso, and Spygate and Alonso; Alonso was ultimately found not to be involved both times though if I recall he did know about Spygate and - along with Hamilton - was granted immunity for cooperation in the investigation).

That's the only situation in which removing Verstappen's championship is justifiable, but as things stand that's only a fever dream of conspiracists; there's no evidence that Masi threw (or was required to throw, by his bosses) any decisions in Red Bull's favour, that Red Bull was involved in influencing this, or that Verstappen knew that Red Bull was involved and kept quiet about it. All of that would need to be both real and proven.

 

[GroupB]

The officials should be there to ensure that the race is run safely, fairly and consistently. They are not there to ensure that it's a good show, or make sure that Max and Lewis are fighting head to head on the final lap. If that happens, cool. If it doesn't, they shouldn't bend the rules to make it happen.

What happened was essentially match fixing, something that's considered to be bad in most competitive sports. People should be vocal about this no matter who won, because if this is how it works going forward then why should anyone care about the results?

This should be pinned and sent out as a press release. Best summation of the knife edge the sport currently teeters on.

 

[McLaren]

The same race director who had the unanimous support of all teams prior to the race to do whatever he could to allow the race to finish under green flag conditions?

That doesn't mean anything.

I fully expect the staff here to do what it takes the keep the forum tidy & in check. I don't expect them to do that by banning people they don't like for no reason.

The driver reactions clearly show what transpired is not what they expected to finish racing under green. They know full well there will always be variables that can prevent a race from ending under a green flag. If Masi's intention was to end under green, the option to finish the final lap with the cars as they stood in order was always there.

 

[MatskiMonk]

What happened was essentially match fixing, something that's considered to be bad in most competitive sports.

It's only match-fixing if the FIA had pre-determined that RedBull will get the win, which I don't believe there's any evidence for.

 

[Blitz24]

It's only match-fixing if the FIA had pre-determined that RedBull will get the win, which I don't believe there's any evidence for.

Agreed. I'd argue it was match-manipulation by interpreting the rules in a creative way (exploiting a loophole) at best.

 

[Famine]

I don't expect them to do that by banning people they don't like for no reason.

 

[Samus]

Merc refused to send either of their title winning cars for the usual FIA photoshoot. Neither the F1 car nor the FE car.

Mercedes decline to participate in FIA champions photoshoot as appeal wait goes on

Mercedes has refused to take part in an official FIA photoshoot commemorating the constructors champions of 2021 as the team considers whether to appeal the results of last weekend's title-deciding Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.

www.racefans.net

I think any suggestions in the press I saw today that they'll probably slowly back out of this aren't true. Their beef with the FIA is very much still on.

 

[Gingerale]

I wonder what people would think if Abu Dhabi took place somewhere midseason and, say, Silverstone or Hungaroring was the final race.

My point is that sometimes you're lucky, and instead of only looking at the last race (Max was very lucky), try to look at the whole season. Stuff evens out.

 

[AshenGraey]

For the sake of F1, I hope they will not change the outcome of the championship because that would look even worse. As I've said in prior post, an annulment of the race might be an option but then that in itself will probably open the door for other possible lawsuits or whatever else from the other drivers/teams who benefited from that race. What I'm fully expecting to happen though is that someone or a selected few will be taking the fall for this...I hope it will be Masi but guess we'll have to wait and see how it unfolds. If not then I'm sure they'll probably make up deals in the background and settles everything away from the public view and then we got back to racing.

 

[Dreadmed]

I wonder what people would think if Abu Dhabi took place somewhere midseason and, say, Silverstone or Hungaroring was the final race.

Somewhere that has; a passionate fanbase, a track with good overtaking opportunities and occasional unsettled weather. How about Sao Paulo...? 🤔

 

[OJBrit]

Hamilton avoids the crash, because the door is left open, he begins to turn in and "Oh, there's a car there now!"
So, he jinks back to avoid the accident (which is fair), and because of the situation he put himself into, Max has now started to defend the gap he found himself in. Lewis went off track (again, no issue), but didn't need to zoom off and cut the next corner. FIA thinks he gave back the advantage he gained by doing that, fair enough.

He was taking a normal line into the corner. Outside to inside to outside. That's why there was a gap to the inside. He recognised that Max was under normal conditions too far back for a move, and only avoided it once Max did lunge.

It was a Gentlemans Agreement
Driver61 also mentioned it.

A gentleman's agreement will hold as much weight in court as a wet paper towel. The rules still have to be followed even if there is an agreement to 'try' and reach a certain outcome.

 

[PeterJB]

Merc refused to send either of their title winning cars for the usual FIA photoshoot. Neither the F1 car nor the FE car.

Mercedes decline to participate in FIA champions photoshoot as appeal wait goes on

Mercedes has refused to take part in an official FIA photoshoot commemorating the constructors champions of 2021 as the team considers whether to appeal the results of last weekend's title-deciding Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.

www.racefans.net

I think any suggestions in the press I saw today that they'll probably slowly back out of this aren't true. Their beef with the FIA is very much still on.

Don't be surprised if while the Prize Giving Ceremony is taking place tomorrow the Mercedes mechanics try and storm the FIA headquarters.