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The only reason Max was ahead at the apex is because he braked too late, as evidenced by him going off track with all 4 wheels and pushing Lando wide as a result; I suppose that’s a loophole
Formula 1 Pirelli United States Grand Prix 2024Formula 1
- Thread starter Jimlaad43
- 108 comments
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- 322
- New Zealand
From the heli shot, it actually looked like Verstappen eased off the brakes to be ahead at the apex. Button made the point in the post race that he likely did that knowing the rules and how it would be judged.
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- United Kingdom
Hopefully Lando can win the WDC, cheaters really should not prosper. McLaren need to bring their floor upgrade as soon as possible. If Ferrari can take points of Red Bull, might open up chance for Lando if they can get ahead of Ferrari in terms of speed.
Investigation needs to go into FIA, why Max gets away with so much and why they nitpick his rivals on arbitrary reasoning to try and get them a penalty. Appeals of decisions should be allowed to stop corruption, FIA should at least apologise for bad decisions. It seemed very dodgy that Lando got investigated yesterday due to race director reporting him for erratic driving when there was nothing erratic about it. Max takes the lead temporarily forcing a driver off-track and potentially driving off-track to make it stick and it didn't seem to be investigated / reported to the stewards by the race director? Very dodgy again, maybe driver preference or nationality coming into play.
I think going by this, best not even brake for turn one, just go long aiming towards the apex and rejoin ahead. So what if you gain loads of positions, it is lap one, nothing to see there... May as well go off at the chicane in Monaco where track position is king. If at risk of getting overtaken, just take a strike for off-track and keep position as you will be the car ahead at the apex. If the other car avoids you and makes the move stick around you, they get the penalty. However, I think if your name is Max, he would get away with both without a penalty. They probably saw how close Oscar was and gave no penalty to Max for forcing a driver off-track so he would have ended up with a bigger points loss if rules were followed.
Mercedes let things stand in number of races in 2021 that even Adrian Newey called Max out about it. I think even one of them, stewards applied the wrong type of penalty to Max so should have been appealed. Lewis should have had a healthy lead if rules were followed going into the last race and would have made things easier as then Mercedes would not need to be as afraid of Max's and race director antics. Need Toto and the others to step up this time and force FIA to eradicate the clear bias towards one driver in racing situations. Wonder if we will see anything like 2021 again. They did not follow their rules and to have a message like what would be in plain English, only cars ahead of Max will not be able to race on the final lap and race restart procedure will begin once they have passed Lewis still seems ridiculous to this day. I understand Toto said he got the race director back up before the race by giving feedback and Jonathan Wheatley seems to know hypnosis but rules should not be changed so much just to suit one team and driver. Had Red Bull literally directing the race, even today Christian said the race director was on their side straightaway about the overtake by Lando.
It needs to be looked into and a process needs to be put in place that decisions can be challenged to people that their profession are being judges or in law so they understand what is meant by the rulebook. At least then, race director's or stewards will less likely feel they can get away with leniency towards one particular driver if they know they can be challenged internally and their reputation and position is at stake. I don't get why they don't just have the people who write up the rules as the people who judge the decisions instead. Seems silly not to have professionals doing the judging. Can't believe a sport that is valued in the tens of the billions have unpaid stewards doing the decision making and marshals who are in charge of safety and security are also unpaid. Is there any other sport where this happens? There is more than enough money in this sport to try and get the best people working in key areas on a permanent basis, that would create a certain standard and consistency that would be much appreciated.
Investigation needs to go into FIA, why Max gets away with so much and why they nitpick his rivals on arbitrary reasoning to try and get them a penalty. Appeals of decisions should be allowed to stop corruption, FIA should at least apologise for bad decisions. It seemed very dodgy that Lando got investigated yesterday due to race director reporting him for erratic driving when there was nothing erratic about it. Max takes the lead temporarily forcing a driver off-track and potentially driving off-track to make it stick and it didn't seem to be investigated / reported to the stewards by the race director? Very dodgy again, maybe driver preference or nationality coming into play.
I think going by this, best not even brake for turn one, just go long aiming towards the apex and rejoin ahead. So what if you gain loads of positions, it is lap one, nothing to see there... May as well go off at the chicane in Monaco where track position is king. If at risk of getting overtaken, just take a strike for off-track and keep position as you will be the car ahead at the apex. If the other car avoids you and makes the move stick around you, they get the penalty. However, I think if your name is Max, he would get away with both without a penalty. They probably saw how close Oscar was and gave no penalty to Max for forcing a driver off-track so he would have ended up with a bigger points loss if rules were followed.
Mercedes let things stand in number of races in 2021 that even Adrian Newey called Max out about it. I think even one of them, stewards applied the wrong type of penalty to Max so should have been appealed. Lewis should have had a healthy lead if rules were followed going into the last race and would have made things easier as then Mercedes would not need to be as afraid of Max's and race director antics. Need Toto and the others to step up this time and force FIA to eradicate the clear bias towards one driver in racing situations. Wonder if we will see anything like 2021 again. They did not follow their rules and to have a message like what would be in plain English, only cars ahead of Max will not be able to race on the final lap and race restart procedure will begin once they have passed Lewis still seems ridiculous to this day. I understand Toto said he got the race director back up before the race by giving feedback and Jonathan Wheatley seems to know hypnosis but rules should not be changed so much just to suit one team and driver. Had Red Bull literally directing the race, even today Christian said the race director was on their side straightaway about the overtake by Lando.
It needs to be looked into and a process needs to be put in place that decisions can be challenged to people that their profession are being judges or in law so they understand what is meant by the rulebook. At least then, race director's or stewards will less likely feel they can get away with leniency towards one particular driver if they know they can be challenged internally and their reputation and position is at stake. I don't get why they don't just have the people who write up the rules as the people who judge the decisions instead. Seems silly not to have professionals doing the judging. Can't believe a sport that is valued in the tens of the billions have unpaid stewards doing the decision making and marshals who are in charge of safety and security are also unpaid. Is there any other sport where this happens? There is more than enough money in this sport to try and get the best people working in key areas on a permanent basis, that would create a certain standard and consistency that would be much appreciated.
- 2,041
- Australia
To the letter of the law, the penalty to Lando was correct, but the law is flawed and racing quality will deteriorate if unchanged. What Max did was good defending based on the rules they've got to work with, and he's really done the same thing for a while now. It doesn't promote good race craft, as its just a matter of parking your car on the inside, knowing that you own the corner, and running the other wide because they have no other choice.
If it continues this way, passing with be confined to DRS straights.
If it continues this way, passing with be confined to DRS straights.
- 40,816
I didn't even know Verstappen owned an Xbox.
- 87,166
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
I wasn't really paying too much attention to the race, but Sainz/Verstappen on lap one doesn't even appear to have been investigated (never mind penalised with five seconds) while the carbon copy Verstappen/Norris on lap 52 did?
In both cases the car technically behind on the straight moved to the inside, was ahead on the apex, the car on the outside went all-four off by quite some distance and retained the spot. Same corner too.
I'm sure the answer to "what am I missing here" is "Derek Warwick", but even so it would seem pretty hard to rationalise.
In both cases the car technically behind on the straight moved to the inside, was ahead on the apex, the car on the outside went all-four off by quite some distance and retained the spot. Same corner too.
I'm sure the answer to "what am I missing here" is "Derek Warwick", but even so it would seem pretty hard to rationalise.
ROAD_DOGG33J
Premium
- 14,263
- IL, USA
- holyc0w1
- holyc0w
First lap blind eye is most likely the answer. They tend to be more lenient on first lap incidents.
In other news, the promoter has been fined 500k Euros for the, end of the race, track incursion, with 350k suspending if no other incursions occur through the end of 2026.
In other news, the promoter has been fined 500k Euros for the, end of the race, track incursion, with 350k suspending if no other incursions occur through the end of 2026.
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- 87,166
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
I'm not seeing any fundamental differences in the cars' positionings in the two manoeuvres.
Additionally, these were the original trophies:
Seems that they were pulled due similarities with existing products (what with replicas also being sold in the gift shop), and while you might think "gosh that whole crotch, leg, arm, clawed hand thing might annoy LEGO"...
... no. Apparently a brand called "Bearbrick" sells... these:
... absolutely wretched things for, like, $600 a time (and up for the really big ones) in a variety of colours and tedious "drip" tie-ins.
- 4,837
- Netherlands
- PaMu1337
To be clear, I'm not arguing that the stewards did the right thing.
I'm just pointing out minor differences which may have been used as motivation.
The positioning is pretty much the same. The difference was that Sainz was initially behind, and ended up behind afterwards. Yes, Max was behind with Lando too, but only because he was passed a few hundred meters before, and you could argue it was still during the same overtake.
I think both moves were not okay. There was a bunch of inconsistent ruling, and the stewards really need to get their act together (as loads of people have been saying for years).
I wouldn't say those look any better 😅
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If Lando had backed off and not completed the pass would Max have "left the track and gained a lasting advantage" because his only defence "to keep the position" was to run so deep he did not keep on track?
! think they should both have received the penalty.
Er, nah, "it's a cla$$ic ca$e of $uper $tewarding" since 2021 Brazil ...
Such a vacuous emotionally depressing feeling after what seemed to a pretty crappy race become an exciting race and then become a crappy outcome.
Veinz
Premium
- 5,201
- Ontario
It’s kind of a harsh/clickbait title, but they’re right on the money with this article.
www.the-race.com
Norris must smarten up - or Verstappen will keep embarrassing him
Austria and now COTA have shown Lando Norris is being pushed around by Max Verstappen - and simply doesn't have an answer yet to his rival's ruthless ingenuity
www.the-race.com
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They might be kind of near the money, problem is Lando is in many occasions in a lose-lose situation. Max will push into the grey area and escape penalty over and over again while Lando will get penalty in the grey area.It’s kind of a harsh/clickbait title, but they’re right on the money with this article.
Norris must smarten up - or Verstappen will keep embarrassing him
Austria and now COTA have shown Lando Norris is being pushed around by Max Verstappen - and simply doesn't have an answer yet to his rival's ruthless ingenuity
For example Turn 1 from the overhead Max and Lando went seriously away from the racing line, if Lando cut all the way to the inside of the track Max might have switched around and then just taken the cut-back-under that LeClerc did as that entry to the corner was kinda ridiculous... if Lando stayed near the racing line, then Max would have just gone less tight still underneath and still pushed him off track.
Same for the eventual penalty situation.. many pundits are saying McLaren should have told him to give the position back straight away - and in hindsight that might be true - but if he did then good chance he just be run off the track on the next attempt again and again and the outcome would have been him finishing behind.
Basically the sport is fun if you are a Max fan because if the stewards are not biased for him they must be biased against everyone else... It creates discussion so it is actually good for the
I missed this - so funny - what a total clown show all over the place.
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- Fezzik-GT
- Fezzik1983
I doubt anything will come of this - precedent suggests the stewards will say any new evidence isn't relevant enough to make them reassess the incident.
- 87,166
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Yes, the FIA predictably rejected it on the basis that an obvious error isn't new evidence.
McLaren's point was that Norris had already passed Verstappen on the straight (and he had), making Verstappen the overtaking driver and subject to that portion of the rules - clearly having forced Norris off the road in the process, committing the offence - rather than the stewards' version that Norris was the overtaking driver.
McLaren's point was that Norris had already passed Verstappen on the straight (and he had), making Verstappen the overtaking driver and subject to that portion of the rules - clearly having forced Norris off the road in the process, committing the offence - rather than the stewards' version that Norris was the overtaking driver.
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Trying to argue against stewards with evidence contrary to their opinion is never going to work.
Max was 100% behind at the braking zone, he was going off track attempting to gain advantage with the hope / knowledge that the stewards would have this 'interesting' perception of the situation.
Ironically, if a similar situation happens in reverse in the future they will judge the other way and say that team / media wanted the thing to be decided by who was ahead at the braking zone.... If it happens again the same way they will just stick to their guns.
Good time to watch the sport as a Max fan.
Max was 100% behind at the braking zone, he was going off track attempting to gain advantage with the hope / knowledge that the stewards would have this 'interesting' perception of the situation.
Ironically, if a similar situation happens in reverse in the future they will judge the other way and say that team / media wanted the thing to be decided by who was ahead at the braking zone.... If it happens again the same way they will just stick to their guns.
Good time to watch the sport as a Max fan.
