Formula 1 STC Saudi Arabian Grand Prix 2021Formula 1

[EDK]

Vettels disintegrating car will bring out an SC due to more crap on the road.

I don't understand why they did not flag him. In the racing I do, we have the black flag with orange dot, meatball. It basically means your car is falling apart.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

They noted the part where Horner said "strategically". Figured that wouldn't help Red Bull's case.

Max still keeps P2, though, so, not the worst thing for them.

Yeah, it's basically no effect unless Max gets more penalty points next year. Well, that's wrapped up.

 

[Grayfox]

I don't understand why they did not flag him. In the racing I do, we have the black flag with orange dot, meatball. It basically means your car is falling apart.

While having leeway is important in the sport, some rules should be more binary.

But they didn't flag him as his car was not a "Danger"

 

[Grayfox]

They noted the part where Horner said "strategically". Figured that wouldn't help Red Bull's case.

Max still keeps P2, though, so, not the worst thing for them.

He did also said it is legal.
Maybe a rule should be made.

When places are to be handed back, they must be done so well before DRS zones.

 

[andrea]

So.. Hamilton actually admitted that he didn't want to regain the position at that point? He should get an Oscar for his performance this evening.

 

[Grayfox]

So.. Hamilton actually admitted that he didn't want to regain the position at that point? He should get an Oscar for his performance this evening.

If one refuses to take a place back, would that not count as a forfeit of said place.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

So.. Hamilton actually admitted that he didn't want to regain the position at that point? He should get an Oscar for his performance this evening.

I don't see where it says that, though it is possible. Basically Hamilton didn't know Max was letting him pass, but he didn't want to pass before the DRS line.

He did also said it is legal.
Maybe a rule should be made.

When places are to be handed back, they must be done so well before DRS zones.

Or after. Isn't there a rule that says if you give a position back in a situation like this, you can't immediately overtake?

edit: This was the one I was thinking of:

27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately
leave the track without a justifiable reason.

Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of
the track but the kerbs are not.

Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the Race
Director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he
gained by leaving the track.

 

[gtrotary]

Max acting like his teenage self again.

 

[pumaATTACK]

Max is such a classless driver. His penalties are well deserved and lucky he still got 2nd.

 

[McLaren]

Or after. Isn't there a rule that says if you give a position back in a situation like this, you can't immediately overtake?

edit: This was the one I was thinking of:

Isn't that why Max had to give the position back again the next time? Because he let Lewis by, but then immediately over took going into the corner.

I'm positive @Famine made a reference to it earlier, that it was due to something Hamilton did himself way back.

 

[RustyCitroen]

What an incredible way to enter the final race of the season... dead heat. First time points have been tied going into the finale since 1974, I believe.

Not too bothered about the championship fight, to be honest. I hate the whole 'Lewis vs. Max' war where you're either on one side or the other. Personally I think Max has been the better driver in 2021, but both drivers are immensely deserving of respect for a great year of racing.

Gutted for Ocon after that finish. Losing the podium by a tenth after a drive like that has to hurt. Glad to see Ricciardo up there, though.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Isn't that why Max had to give the position back again the next time? Because he let Lewis by, but then immediately over took going into the corner.

I'm positive @Famine made a reference to it earlier, that it was due to something Hamilton did himself way back.

I think it was 27.3, because drivers were calculating on how to give the place back and then re-overtake as quickly as possible.

 

[McLaren]

Horner throwing more shade at Masi.

“I felt like, today, the sport missed Charlie Whiting,” Horner said. “I’m sorry to say, but the experience that he had… it’s obviously frustrating.”

F1 "missed Charlie Whiting" today says Horner after chaotic race

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner made his view of FIA Formula 1 race director Michael Masi clear after a series of controversial incidents and stewards' decisions in the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix.

www.racefans.net

Interesting backlash by fans though that have said Charlie would've been much harsher on Max if he was still around.

 

[AshenGraey]

So Lewis was right then when he said that Max brake checked him? I was just thinking that he downshifted more but seems like the telemetry actually showed that he did brake...If you are letting someone pass wouldn't it make sense to do so off the racing line?? I mean this is not a track day session when people wave people while they are on the racing. Anyway, what's done is done, looking at the footage again I think Lewis had some fault there as well but Max has been ridiculous in this race. You don't do this when you are leading a championship. It makes me wonder now about what Lewis said about him not really caring if he finishes or taking both of them out cause either way, he'll win the championship because he already has more wins this season.

 

[EDK]

Maybe the worst race I've ever watched. Modern NASCAR levels of stupid mixed with a European penchant for nonsensical bureaucracy. Then you add on an unbearable amount of grown men whining and tattle tailing. Nearly unwatchable.

Are there rules or not? Why are they sometimes a negotiation? Why would you restart from a grid when you red flagged after laps under a safety car that removed all the true gaps legally anyway? When is a formation lap a formation lap? These are just a few of the questions about a sport that has existed for what... 70+ years now?

This is gold. Particularly the first paragraph.

Remember when the pinnacle of motorsport was about, you know, racing?
I remember.

Still, at least the FIA got what they wanted. The way this has been going, there's enough drama to fill a whole TV series. I mean, imagine if F1 made one for this, right?
...Oh, hang on a minute.

I'll watch Abu Dhabi though, obviously. Partly because it's a title decider and partly out of hope, rather than expectation, that F1 might be able to salvage any integrity from this season.

I think all sports are going through a similar phase right now. They think these contrived close results are "exciting", but in reality they are exhausting. My wife and I have been especially frustrated with the NFL of late. They seem to manufacture the late game outcome every time.

Fire all the stewards and clean house for next season. F1 is a joke with them at the helm. Any of us on here could do a superior job. Zero consistency all season. When you have two drivers tied with one race to go and you have fans who aren't even excited over it because your officating was total dog**** it's time to lose your job.

Same as my comment above. I think the sport owners prefer it this way. They are counting on the non core base believing this is intense, or whatever. I enjoy sports, but I don't enjoy outcomes being decided by officials. Egrigous offenses should be penalized, but otherwise, let them play.

 

[GingerBredMan]

I’m interested to see how this plays out, but I don’t know that I want to wake up early for Abu Dhabi. I want too see this championship play out but it all seems pretty tainted at this point

 

[Veinz]

I would hate to have Masi’s job.

 

[EDK]

I would hate to have Masi’s job.

That's part of the problem, he thinks he needs to do something to be effective.

In those roles, doing nothing is often the best answer.

 

[Roo]

I'm positive @Famine made a reference to it earlier, that it was due to something Hamilton did himself way back.

Belgian GP, 2008. Lewis passed Kimi off the track at the Bus Stop, gave the place back across the line, then dived inside at La Source. Less than a lap later Raikkonen binned it and Hamilton couldn't redress again, although back then that wouldn't have been expected as it was this incident that set the precedent. Hamilton got a 25 second post-race penalty, which lost him the win (and 2 points in the old 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 points format) to Massa, which was nearly decisive given the events of Interlagos that year.

Incident starts at 1:30 if you want to skip the setup:



Edit: unrelated, but check out Alonso's final lap on inters against the slick runners, it's brilliant:

 

[PeterJB]

Belgian GP, 2008. Lewis passed Kimi off the track at the Bus Stop, gave the place back across the line, then dived inside at La Source. Less than a lap later Raikkonen binned it and Hamilton couldn't redress again, although back then that wouldn't have been expected as it was this incident that set the precedent. Hamilton got a 25 second post-race penalty, which lost him the win (and 2 points in the old 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 points format) to Massa, which was nearly decisive given the events of Interlagos that year.

Incident starts at 1:30 if you want to skip the setup:



Edit: unrelated, but check out Alonso's final lap on inters against the slick runners, it's brilliant:

That title battle ended up being so much closer than it should've been.

 

[EDK]

I was also musing, it's ironic that the Saudi flag is basically green.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Same as my comment above. I think the sport owners prefer it this way. They are counting on the non core base believing this is intense, or whatever. I enjoy sports, but I don't enjoy outcomes being decided by officials. Egregious offenses should be penalized, but otherwise, let them play.

Yeah, they definitely do. They would prefer to have every race be like this. This includes them running more radio transmissions compared to the Bernie era of F1. They want to drum up the drama...there's no such thing as bad publicity.

I would hate to have Masi’s job.

I wonder how much of this is coming from Masi or if there are some instructions from the F1 bosses.

Not sure if he can do anything about it, but there needs to be more consistency in the stewarding, so we don't have: this wasn't punished in Brazil, but it is here.

Are people serious with this:

 

[Famine]

I'm positive @Famine made a reference to it earlier, that it was due to something Hamilton did himself way back.

Spa 2008, and one of the most disgusting things I've seen from any body anywhere in the world charged with legislation.

Hamilton ran off track to pass Raikkonen, let him back past as Bus Stop, and immediately latched onto his tail and passed him at La Source. It wasn't strictly against the rules, and Charlie Whiting told McLaren it was fine.

However the stewards disagreed and gave him a 25s penalty after the race (a drive-through converted to a time penalty).

The best bit was that the rule the stewards decided he broke didn't exist... They decided that cutting a chicane representing gaining an advantage (which wasn't in the rules) and that drivers must wait at least one corner after ceding a place following a corner cut where an advantage was gained. And as Hamilton hadn't done that, he got a penalty. For a rule that hadn't existed when he didn't follow it.

The extra best bit was that the rules did say that drive-through penalties cannot be appealed, so after hearing the appeal two weeks later, the FIA said it couldn't hear the appeal.


25 seconds (and it cost him a world title) for breaking a rule that didn't exist makes a 10s penalty with no loss of position following a 2.4g brakecheck seem positively risible, really.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I find it astonishing he only got 10 seconds for brake checking Lewis. That is a lot of brake pressure with your championship rival right behind you on a straight (He would have had to stamp on the brake pedal really hard and he also steered in the direction of where Lewis was going). Can see now why Max's reaction was not irate of Lewis going into the back of him but was calm like he expected it but luckily Lewis's spidey-sense came to his rescue again minimising damage and allowing him to continue and not let Max win the championship this way. Lewis will need his wits about him even more so next race as he does not have championship lead and if it is only 10 seconds for trying to brake check and take a championship rival out of the race, then not only has to be still concerned about being torpedoed but now brake checked. He also needs to avoid getting a reprimand too.

 

[Grayfox]

Surprised that Bottas got off scott free for Slowing Down Excessively during the first SC period.
Should Red Flag negatate the punishment?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Surprised that Bottas got off scott free for Slowing Down Excessively during the first SC period.
Should Red Flag negatate the punishment?

It is not like he crawled to a halt, likely was still travelling a lot quicker than the safety car and it is safer to drive slowly in them conditions.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Spa 2008, and one of the most disgusting things I've seen from any body anywhere in the world charged with legislation.

I wasn't a fan of Hamilton at the time, but I remember feeling that they screwed him over. I guess the inconcistency just doesn't get better.

Can see now why Max's reaction was not irate of Lewis going into the back of him but was calm like he expected it but luckily Lewis's spidey-sense came to his rescue again minimising damage and allowing him to continue and not let Max win the championship this way. Lewis will need his wits about him even more so next race as he does not have championship lead and if it is only 10 seconds for trying to brake check and take a championship rival out of the race, then not only has to be still concerned about being torpedoed but now brake checked. He also needs to avoid getting a reprimand too.

That was just luck that they were both able to continue. That was a pretty big impact.

Hamilton needs to finish the next race to be able to win, because if neither of them finish Verstappen gets the title. Hope we see a fair battle next week and also no retirements/reliability issues.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

That was just luck that they were both able to continue. That was a pretty big impact.

Hamilton needs to finish the next race to be able to win, because if neither of them finish Verstappen gets the title. Hope we see a fair battle next week and also no retirements/reliability issues.

It was an amazing swerve by Lewis just to get slight front wing damage, it was more extreme than someone doing an emergency brake stop in a road car which you were right behind and having to avoid it. Extremely dangerous and hopefully Mercedes appeal it as it is a bit of a joke you can try take out another car through such dangerous tactics and get an ordinary penalty for it (They could recreate the incident to show how dangerous that level of deacceleration is on a flat out section). The FIA are enabling Max's dangerous driving standards by letting him get away with minor penalties (Red Bull seemed unhappy that "let them race principles" weren't applied to allow Max to take the lead by extending the race track again). Something like a disqualification would have sent a positive safety message that it is not OK to brake check someone, instead they are showing an unacceptable example once again to all the drivers out there.

 

[McLaren]

Yeah, they definitely do. They would prefer to have every race be like this. This includes them running more radio transmissions compared to the Bernie era of F1. They want to drum up the drama...there's no such thing as bad publicity.

I wonder how much of this is coming from Masi or if there are some instructions from the F1 bosses.

Not sure if he can do anything about it, but there needs to be more consistency in the stewarding, so we don't have: this wasn't punished in Brazil, but it is here.

Are people serious with this:

Matt should probably stick to writing about Nascar & MLB. Maybe invest in a little thing called a dash cam as well.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I can understand Lewis' hesitation in wanting to overtake Max (if he hadn't been told by the team that Max is giving the place back). Max basically tried to run him off the road multiple times in T1-2 in the race. When you're dealing with a driver like that, you don't know what he's planning when he starts slowing down on the straight and weaving a bit left and right. For Max, if neither of them finishes it's good. For Lewis, he absolutely MUST finish and get the points.

If Max wants to make it clear to give up the place, he would stick to the right wall, not vaguely in the middle of the track (also the wall on the left narrows a bit in that area).

Add to that, both drivers obviously didn't want to be the first one to cross the DRS detection point.

So it's a misunderstanding complicated by Max' aggressiveness earlier causing Lewis to be ultra cautious (rightly so), compounded further by the DRS detection being in that area.

Then on lap 42 he let Lewis past in the same spot, and then immediately takes the place again. Cheeky, but Max knows Lewis can't defend too hard because he can't afford DNF.

Then Lewis' final pass on lap 43 (which was as clean as anything, he left Max plenty of time to cutback instead of going off track). It's probably a last ditch effort by Max - that by running off the road, the stewards would also give Lewis 5 second penalty (which neutralises his own penalty), and they can resume the fight on track.

All in all, a very messy race. We know what Max is like but he's definitely feeling the pressure this weekend. Mistake in quali and so many moments of desperation in the race. Not helped by the poor T1-2 chicane (similar corner at Maggiore GP in GT Sport and Oscherschleben T1-2, which always causes chaos) and weak/inconsistent stewarding by FIA/Masi as usual.

But hey, at least we have a 1 race battle royale shootout Fully expecting a Senna-Prost 89/90 moment there. Get your popcorns ready folks!

P.S. I have no idea how Lewis got FL with his right front wing endplate missing. Since Brazil this guy's speed is just on another level.