Formula 1 VTB Russian Grand Prix 2019Formula 1 

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
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Touring Mars
... that proves that they had decided that Leclerc should be given 1st place if Ferrari were 1-2 in advance of the race... and that's seriously dodgy.

If Leclerc (or Ferrari) seriously believe that letting their teammate slipstream them is justification enough to be owed the place back, then they are completely nuts.
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I can see their rationale - if Leclerc allowed Vettel to keep the slipstream undisturbed and deny Hamilton the same slipstream (academic, given Hamilton's poorer start ahead of Vettel) then Leclerc would get the payback for this tactical compliance.

I'm not saying it wasn't a stupid idea but I can understand why they wanted to ensure nothing happened between their cars to favour the Mercedes.
 
TenEightyOne
I can see their rationale - if Leclerc allowed Vettel to keep the slipstream undisturbed and deny Hamilton the same slipstream (academic, given Hamilton's poorer start ahead of Vettel) then Leclerc would get the payback for this tactical compliance.

I'm not saying it wasn't a stupid idea but I can understand why they wanted to ensure nothing happened between their cars to favour the Mercedes.
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It does make sense for them to avoid tangling at the first corner, but a cynic might say that it was awfully convenient for Leclerc to have such an arrangement given that they knew fine that Vettel would likely get past him because pole is not ideal in Russia... so basically Leclerc was guaranteed first place by team orders, no matter what.

There's precious little enough actual racing in F1 these days without a team ordering their drivers not to race each other.
 
I think the biggest mistake Ferrari made was trying to resolve a disagreement through manipulation. They left Vettel out longer pitting Charles first. They knew Vettel was driving his wheels off setting fastest laps. Then they put Charles on new faster rubber and left Vettel out for a few more laps making sure he lost time and would come out of pits behind Charles. If they have a problem with a driver they should work it out after the race not manipulate the pit strategy into causing a driver to lose time. Who has time to lose in a race.

Then the question that we will never have an answer to, did they shut Vettel's MGU-K unit off to show him who is in control? And if that is their management style don't expect Ferrari to have good relationships with their drivers, and don't expect them to be on top any time soon.
 
Oswald07
Then the question that we will never have an answer to, did they shut Vettel's MGU-K unit off to show him who is in control? And if that is their management style don't expect Ferrari to have good relationships with their drivers, and don't expect them to be on top any time soon.
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Honestly, i wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
 
Does starting ahead means that you win automatically? Because that's what happened. They should have at least pit Seb the lap after since he worked for it by being faster and built the gap.
 
TenEightyOne
'Twas ever thus with Ferrari. It's part of their racing DNA. By racing I mean holding position :D
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Ferrari will always shaft whichever driver is number two at that point in time. Unfortunately for Vettel, behind in the championship, that's him.

A very messy race for Ferrari. And one they would probably sooner forget.
 
Mercedes had some very good speed in the second half of the race.

After the virtual safety car, Lewis came in for a pitstop and was about 6 seconds ahead but then the real safety car came out and I thought oh damn Lewis could've needed that gap, obviously now it's a restart and that gap is lost. With Leclerc and Lewis on soft tyres it was all equal and Lewis just dropped them. Bottas even had a 2.5 gap to Leclerc.
 
I think that, Charles probably shouldn't be getting as much hate as he has gotten. The team is responsible for managing the driver situation and ensuring a good race result. If the call was made pre-race, that's on the team, not Charles.

If he wants to whine about not getting what the team promised (the swap), the team already messed up by making that call before the flag was even flown, and trying to make the call during the race when it was clearly a poor one.

Undercutting Charles is also stupid, even if it technically didn't put the race on the line at that particular moment, as they were limiting the potential in the interest of Charles. It's some Schumacher-esque levels of team orders, in a title fight that is more or less already out of their reach.

This whole fiasco, apart from being controversial and embarrassing (they already served their punishment given the result), really is indicative of a growing friction within the team. It is actually surprising the extent they were going today to suit Charles, even if they felt guilt for how Singapore turned out. Is he growing disgruntled with the team? Is Vettel growing upset with becoming second fiddle? Has he already planned to leave at the end of the year? Or have Ferrari already decided who their number 1 is going to be from now on? This look like the beginning of a bigger story.
 
Peter.
Is Vettel growing upset with becoming second fiddle? Has he already planned to leave at the end of the year? Or have Ferrari already decided who their number 1 is going to be from now on? This look like the beginning of a bigger story.
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I think Marko has the right idea

“Ferrari managed to not win the race despite having the quickest car. They sacrificed Sebastian although he was quicker. Vettel has no future at Ferrari anymore, that's certain for me now.”
 
Peter.
I think that, Charles probably shouldn't be getting as much hate as he has gotten. The team is responsible for managing the driver situation and ensuring a good race result. If the call was made pre-race, that's on the team, not Charles.

If he wants to whine about not getting what the team promised (the swap), the team already messed up by making that call before the flag was even flown, and trying to make the call during the race when it was clearly a poor one.

Undercutting Charles is also stupid, even if it technically didn't put the race on the line at that particular moment, as they were limiting the potential in the interest of Charles. It's some Schumacher-esque levels of team orders, in a title fight that is more or less already out of their reach.

This whole fiasco, apart from being controversial and embarrassing (they already served their punishment given the result), really is indicative of a growing friction within the team. It is actually surprising the extent they were going today to suit Charles, even if they felt guilt for how Singapore turned out. Is he growing disgruntled with the team? Is Vettel growing upset with becoming second fiddle? Has he already planned to leave at the end of the year? Or have Ferrari already decided who their number 1 is going to be from now on? This look like the beginning of a bigger story.
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In retrospect, Vettel winning at Singapore may have been the worst thing possible for Ferrari because it may have given him the drive that he can firmly reestablish himself at the top of the pecking order. If history is any indication, when both drivers are actually capable of being the top driver, it inevitably results in intense bitterness that makes the pairing untenable.

Surely, there are going to be statements that nothing has changed but let's be realistic. How can Vettel trust Ferrari anymore with the appearance that they deliberately left him out there so that LeClerc could undercut him? How can LeClerc trust Vettel anymore after he showed he is willing to basically Multi-21 him? How can Ferrari placate both drivers when Mercedes (mostly Hamilton) has shown that they are not going anywhere? The only thing that's missing at this point is the clash of cars on the race track.
 
So, after getting a chance to re-watch the race while actually fully awake (God bless waking up at 7AM to watch), this race is a perfect example of why I don't think Ferrari is a team capable of winning championships. They literally have every major part needed to win; they have a highly competitive car, great engineers, a boatload of resources, and arguably two of the best drivers currently on the grid. What keeps them from from getting that last bit are the small but important details, namely making a strategy that actually makes sense, reactivity when plan A doesn't work out, and not over-relying on team orders to (basically) manufacture results.

While Vettel ignoring orders is "unfair" on a principal level, I don't blame him in the slightest, especially considering how many times he's had to argue with the strategists while driving. This was especially true after Ferrari refused to let him pit. They effectively sabotaged their own driver's race to maintain their silly plan. I felt bad for Seb (and to a lesser extent Charles), but Ferrari got what they deserved this round.

VolkswagenX
How was he being diplomatic? I just don't see it... (Maybe you are being sarcastic, I don't know..)
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To his credit, he easily could've lambasted the team for what happened today, but he held it down and repeatedly said that he won't comment because he needs to discuss his race with the team.

Charles was crying on the radio as if he was being held up by Seb. Ferrari keeping Seb out to swap back Charles was unfair to me.
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Not gonna lie, the complaints about drivers "whining" on the radio makes no sense to me. Of course they're going to bitch and moan, these are some of the most highly competitive individuals in motorsports, driving at hundreds of miles an hour in cars that pull very heavy G forces, and are running on almost pure adrenaline and instinct. This is especially true with things like strategy, one of the few factors that driver's don't have a massive amount of control over.

Also, to his credit, Charles did initially stick with Ferrari's plan, only for Vettel to say "Screw that." As a fan, I agree with Vettel's "race me" take, but I don't blame Charles for getting pissed off.
 
Ferrari are not equipped to handle 2 drivers with similar speed, once again it was made obvious.

Favoring one driver over another is in their DNA anything else leaves them confused.
 
I have to say I’m really confused by the reaction of some fans to Ferrari’s decision to leave Vettel out.

Vettel forced the teams hand by not doing as asked. If the team had just pitted him around the same time as Leclerc it would have shown that Vettel is bigger than the team. He isn’t. This is Ferrari.
I think it’s this petulance from Vettel that’ll cost him a top seat or a No. 1 position. Leclerc is only going to get better and faster and has shown willing to play the game.
 
baldgye
Vettel forced the teams hand by not doing as asked.

Leclerc... has shown willing to play the game.
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Bad things happen when people blindly follow orders, especially bad orders.

No-one has yet explained to me how Vettel's over-riding of a team order didn't benefit the team... he did what was best for the team at that particular moment. Leclerc got the hump because it cost him relative to Vettel, but it did not cost the team - swapping them back at that particular moment would have cost the team.

(Also, where would Vettel have come out had they pitted him at the right time?... did the decision to hang him out to dry benefit the team in any way?!)

F1 racers don't get to where they are by following orders - they think on their feet and adapt to the situation. That's what Vettel did, not only to his benefit, but also to the benefit of the team (well, to the benefit of the team's standing in the race anyway).

Vettel's behaviour does indeed challenge the supremacy of the 'team order' as a means of controlling what happens on the track - and thank goodness for that. His attitude will indeed rankle with the team management, and perversely it probably will end up with Leclerc being favoured as he doesn't have the experience yet to appreciate that 'I was just following orders' isn't always a good enough reason to do something. But that doesn't make a bad order a good one, nor does it excuse the fact that Ferrari seem to think that the result of a decision made in a group meeting prior to the race is what F1 fans want to watch.
 
Besides the best thing at the time was for Leclerc to pass in the pits, once all done everything went the way they wanted.

But let's not forget the stupidity of this plan in the first place, they completely lucked out on a good start here, the plan it self did work to perfection the only thing that backfired was Vettels retirement but that can't be planned, but they had of essentially put Vettel in a place where he is not going to win this race no matter what he did at the start.

For that I can't blame him for not wanting to give the place back easy.
 
Touring Mars
Bad things happen when people blindly follow orders, especially bad orders.

No-one has yet explained to me how Vettel's over-riding of a team order didn't benefit the team... he did what was best for the team at that particular moment. Leclerc got the hump because it cost him relative to Vettel, but it did not cost the team - swapping them back at that particular moment would have cost the team.

(Also, where would Vettel have come out had they pitted him at the right time?... did the decision to hang him out to dry benefit the team in any way?!)

F1 racers don't get to where they are by following orders - they think on their feet and adapt to the situation. That's what Vettel did, not only to his benefit, but also to the benefit of the team (well, to the benefit of the team's standing in the race anyway).

Vettel's behaviour does indeed challenge the supremacy of the 'team order' as a means of controlling what happens on the track - and thank goodness for that. His attitude will indeed rankle with the team management, and perversely it probably will end up with Leclerc being favoured as he doesn't have the experience yet to appreciate that 'I was just following orders' isn't always a good enough reason to do something. But that doesn't make a bad order a good one, nor does it excuse the fact that Ferrari seem to think that the result of a decision made in a group meeting prior to the race is what F1 fans want to watch.
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Sorry ios 13 isn’t allowing me to quote the section I’m replying too...

It didn’t benefit Ferrari because Vettel put his own interests (him winning) over the teams (Leclerc winning).

Nothing else is important.
 
Ferrari managed to engineer another situation where they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't... They should have just let them race from the start, and leave it to Vettel to get ahead of Hamilton helped by the softer tyres on his Ferrari. It is yet another indication that Vettel is not right for Ferrari, and Ferrari is not right for Vettel. I predicted after Monza that Vettel would announce his return to Red Bull for 2020 at the Japanese Grand Prix...

"Driver of the Day" continues to make me wince, Vettel? No one else in the top 3 teams did anything better to win the award for themselves though. If only there was a larger grid of cars racing, where the cars were more equal and the racing is usually far greater? If only one team were starting to emerge as the clear head of that pack and putting in some very solid races...
 
Pezzarinho17
"Driver of the Day" continues to make me wince, Vettel? No one else in the top 3 teams did anything better to win the award for themselves though.
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Albon battling from pitlane to 5th place was impressive. Sainz once again should have won it really, he is absolutely on fire in races now and is too far ahead of the midfield for cameras to ever pick up on him, which is sad because all we ever see of him is a great bit of post-race radio.
 
Pezzarinho17
"Driver of the Day"
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Or Who has the biggest fanbase.
I thought it was a good idea as it could help those in the midfield gain some popularity while the main focus was on the front runners, but it just isn't happening. Canada was (IMO) another example of a driver getting DoD who clearly didn't deserve it.

At least there is no on-track bonus for those who are awarded DoD I guess
 
On the broadcast, sky mentioned vettel as driver of the day so that may have had an effect. But at least it wasn't a landslide and people voted for drivers outside the top 3.
 
Obviously the Sochi GP brings back Multi-21 memories. There's a podcast/interview with Christian Horner where he mentions the story behind that race in Malaysia. It gives an interesting view, even if related to a different team and different people, on Vettel's mindset and sticking to "the plan".
The interesting bit is more or less this: "Interlagos 2012, title decider with Sebastian fighting against Alonso for the championship. Mark was out of contention so it was discussed within the team that he had to do everything possible to help them win the championship. At the start he squeezed Vettel against the wall, and later Sebastian got spun by Bruno Senna. Sebastian was hugely angry about that, and so was I. That led to multi-21, literally 2 races later, split by four months. It was 100% payback, Vettel told Webber that after the race."
I think it's worth to note that Vettel never spoke about this back story to the media, taking all the inevitable negative comments to keep things behind the team's closed doors. Maybe there's more than we know between him, Leclerc and the team in general.

I really recommend listening to that Horner interview if you're interested in some behind the scenes details of F1(multi-21, signing Newey, Ricciardo leaving etc.). Way less clichès than your usual F1 interview. Here it is:
 
I don’t understand people criticizing Charles for his radio.

People say they want drivers to show passion, show emotion, be human....but every time they actually do that, they get labeled as petulant cry babies....so then they shut up, and people call them media trained robots. Perhaps it would be better for all if team radio was not broadcast at all, as it seems that unless a driver behaves like Bottas, they’ll be criticized for it.

Bottas has shown that he’s the ultimate team player, never complains, follows orders...and he gets made fun of for it. “Valterri, this is James,” has become as much of a meme as “Fernando is faster than you.” Would people be happy if Charles acted like Bottas and just let Seb drive off into the distance without so much as a word?

But ya, continue to label a young man who has been through more drama and tough situations than many “fans” will ever deal with in their whole life as a “petulant child” because he has a hunger to win, and not be a wingman.
 
twitcher
People say they want drivers to show passion, show emotion, be human....but every time they actually do that, they get labeled as petulant cry babies....so then they shut up, and people call them media trained robots.
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In this case, Leclerc should have been on Vettel's ass if he wanted the swap to happen so early on. But he wasn't and it would have been stupid for Vettel to slow down that much. Save the emotions for after the race. Want to win? Race for it. Whining on the radio makes you look like a baby. Vettel had his periods, Max had them, Lewis has had his moments. And they all got ridiculed for it. Now it is Leclerc's turn to learn to keep his mouth shut and let his actions speak for him.

Also.

Let them race.
 
twitcher
I don’t understand people criticizing Charles for his radio.

People say they want drivers to show passion, show emotion, be human....but every time they actually do that, they get labeled as petulant cry babies....so then they shut up, and people call them media trained robots. Perhaps it would be better for all if team radio was not broadcast at all, as it seems that unless a driver behaves like Bottas, they’ll be criticized for it.

Bottas has shown that he’s the ultimate team player, never complains, follows orders...and he gets made fun of for it. “Valterri, this is James,” has become as much of a meme as “Fernando is faster than you.” Would people be happy if Charles acted like Bottas and just let Seb drive off into the distance without so much as a word?

But ya, continue to label a young man who has been through more drama and tough situations than many “fans” will ever deal with in their whole life as a “petulant child” because he has a hunger to win, and not be a wingman.
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Did you see Vettel pulling away from Leclerc? Leclerc only has a point if he was right behind Vettel trying to get past. He was nowhere near.

If you are complaining that the team won't let you past your faster team mate in front of you then you are a whining brat.
 

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