FORZA 3 not a Sim according to KY?

[Famine]

Sorry, didn't mean for it to come across as stating facts. But when you think of a 480hp light weight mid engined car, the last thing you would think of doing is stamping on the throttle when going through a low speed hairpin.

Unless you were at, or past, the apex.

Only start to accelerate when you're sure you don't have to let off. So says Sir Jackie Stewart.

 

[FyreandIce]

Unless you were at, or past, the apex.

Only start to accelerate when you're sure you don't have to let off. So says Sir Jackie Stewart.

I am not saying that you shouldn't touch the throttle until you are pointing strait out the other side of the corner. what I am saying is in the video with the F430 the player is MUCH too aggresive with the throttle and there is no sign of wheel spin or oversteer (also, I cannot see any lift off oversteer even though the player goes through some corners with no power what-so-ever).

Also, I have that episode of TG on my PC. I use misses Stewarts advice all the time Season 8: Episode 5 👍

 

[Scaff]

I am not saying that you should touch the throttle until you are pointing strait out the other side of the corner. what I am saying is in the video with the F430 the player is MUCH too aggresive with the throttle and there is no sign of wheel spin or oversteer (also, I cannot see any lift off oversteer even though the player goes through some corners with no power what-so-ever).

OK I've watched the full video a good 20 or so times now (because its more interesting than work) and the driver does not apply full throttle until the car is pointing at the exit of corner 11 (Hairpin), gradual acceleration can be seen from the apex to that point.

As for the first two corners (in which yuo claim we should see lift off oversteer, well quite clearly the majority of braking is done in a straight line before the corner, he then trail brakes into the first corner and the uses throttle control and leftfoot braking to balance the car through the two corners. All of which are classic MR driving techniques, get your braking done in straight line, trail brake, and don't commit to the throttle until you can make it out of the corner.

I honestly have to wonder if we are looking at the same video?

OK, I have uploaded some screen grabs from the replay and they quite clearly show the transition from braking to throttle at every stage of the corner.

As you can see the driver is not at full throttle and full engine revs (the last part is just as important) until the corner exit and at that point the steering is almost totally straight.

Don't just look at the throttle position, but also the engine speed as well, that's the true indicator of what power and torque the engine is putting out.

Also, I have that episode of TG on my PC. I use misses Stewarts advice all the time

"misses"?

Sir would be 100% correct, but at least Mr would be better than calling him a girl.




Scaff

 

[Alex.]

Hi guys welcome to Simracing. Hate to break this to you all but GT and FM will never be full on simulators.

 

[WolfRacer543]

Question is, did KY use a Fanatec wheel when he was playing?

If he wasn't, him saying its not a sim is a bit irrelevant, as any game has to have assists with a controller, and Forza handles those assists differently to GT.

 

[barryl85]

Well I love both games for very different reasons!

GT5p: (talking about the physics im relating to GT5 as i think they will be almost the same - if not ! ):

When playing GT5p - it is definately a better sense of realism than FM3 - and i enjoy the definate SIM style of the game - always have. I love improving my lap times - time and time again (even though i suck !!)

And can i just say i love front wheel drive cars and when in cockpit view the cars handle incredibly like real life - esp in the DC5 Type-r - if you have drove one you will understand !

I also love tuning and upgrading - buying new wheels for my cars and slamming them for photomode !

But from past experiences this is where the fun ends and where Forza in my opinion fills the gaps that are missing from my GT experience (bare in mind i never played GT5p online so i dont know what its like)


Ok with Forza i like the new drag racing feature (might have similar in GT5 - i know GT has had a drag strip in the past GT3 i think) i love playing online with my friends and having a laugh.

Upgrading cars is alot better than any past GT game so far, i love the easier handling and ability to drift with ease - the paint shop - body upgrades and kits. Gifting cars and the auction house !

I think the point im trying to make is that sometimes Forza for me is a much more pick up and play game where you can play it without racing and still have fun ! and Gran Turismo is for me more of a SIM but thats not always a good thing - or a bad thing.

I'd rather love both and own both games than flame each other !!

Although its always good to have competition as it makes each game get better every release !!

 

[Jay]

Hi guys welcome to Simracing. Hate to break this to you all but GT and FM will never be full on simulators.

and neither will iracing be a full on simulator, yes I have played it (aswell as many many other PC sims) and yes it does have issues of it's own.

 

[Alex.]

Iracing I never really liked much (hugely expensive). GTR2 is the one for me. Real life Motec Telemetry software can be used to analyse your performance from in-game and even Simbin themselves (GTR2 creators) are yet to beat it with the sequels. Forza and GT are both absolutely fantastic series, and probably the absolute best can be done for a console racer 👍

 

[Jay]

and probably the absolute best can be done for a console racer 👍

Why? What is physically stopping the consoles from making a sim to the likes of GTR? Nothing. Serious sims are a niche market and console developers generally keep away from that and when they do attempt to make serious racers games like shift come along.

I have GTR, GTR2 and GTR Evo (Evo made a very poor attempt to introduce road cars) and it also has serious flaws but thats not the point. Games like GT and Forza are not going for the same things as GTR and other racers. GT and Forza is going for a Car lifestyle approach (and always has) where you drive, photograph, oogle, tune, customise and generally admire cars that you see everyday to Supercars you or your kids have on the wall to racing cars you see on TV on many tracks with many options.

GTR and games alike are trying to simulate what it is like to be a FIA GT racing driver in racing cars to get you to compete in seasons, to stack points and to fall prey to your mistakes. It does a good job at it but these games are generally not simulating the same things GT and Forza are. Iracing on the other hand simulates the racing community, tiers, many rules and general toughness of becoming a racing champion.
So entering this thread and calling games like iracing a full-on sim and saying GT and Forza will never be is odd.

 

[NLxAROSA]

What is phyically stopping the consoles from making a sim to the likes of GTR? Nothing.

True, especially since a modded GTR2 engine is used in NFS: Shift (although taken over the top a bit). As a matter of fact, Simbin's Lizard engine had its debut on a console (Xbox 360) and is still nowhere to be seen on pc. It will be only a matter of time before there will be more hardcore racing games for the consoles.

 

[barryl85]

Why? What is phyically stopping the consoles from making a sim to the likes of GTR? Nothing. Serious sims are a niche market and console developers generally keep away from that and when they do attempt to make serious racers games like shift come along.

I have GTR, GTR2 and GTR Evo (Evo made a very poor attempt to introduce road cars) and it also has serious flaws but thats not the point. Games like GT and Forza are not going for the same things as GTR and other racers. GT and Forza is going for a Car lifestyle approach (and always has) where you drive, photograph, oogle, tune, customise and generally admire cars that you see everyday to Supercars you or your kids have on the wall to racing cars you see on TV on many tracks with many options.

GTR and games alike are trying to simulate what it is like to be a FIA GT racing driver in racing cars to get you to compete in seasons, to stack points and to fall prey to your mistakes. It does a good job at it but these games are generally not simulating the same things GT and Forza are. Iracing on the other hand simulates the racing community, tiers, many rules and general toughness of becoming a racing champion.
So entering this thread and calling games like iracing a full-on sim and saying GT and Forza will never be is odd.

👍👍👍

Great response and an explanation that has even cleared up questions about why people always compares these Racing sims for PC Gaming and Console gaming.

 

[Zer0]

Just quickly, can someone link a youtube video of a good laptime in GT5.

p.s oh, and can you make sure it shows throttle and brake usage, pro physics and no assists if possible.

[youtubehd]XEtVSqQwBY0[/youtubehd]

*Only ABS on I think.

 

[Zathra5_]

"misses"?

Sir would be 100% correct, but at least Mr would be better than calling him a girl.




Scaff

I believe that he was referring to the episode of Top Gear where James May pretended to not know that Jackie Stewart was a man. I guess as a way to show that he (May) didn't know much about going fast.

Just another thought: I suspect that GT doesn't get enough credit for how accurate they model the characteristics of every car. I have heard that Forza 3 cars are too much the same so I'm wondering if he is partly talking about that. Everyone claims that LFSs physics are really good but when they tried to implement a real life car they found that their physics were quite flawed. Just saying that it is probably harder than it sounds.

 

[vr6wantsr20det]

That chilicoke adapter is something i may have to treat myself to for christmas, the life size wheel is what the G25 is missing for me. That is an AWESOME cockpit, i have a spare set of pedals from a previous replaced G25, i may have to rig up the upper/reverse mounted pedals.

I can't give a fair comparison of Gt5p to FM3 physics as i have a G25 for Gt5p and only the gamepad/controller for FM3, but i WILL say that playing with the controller with NO aids, and manual shifting (no clutch) is A LOT easier than playing with a controller in GT5p, ESPECIALLY for drifting. A lot of the cars have a very similar feel in FM3, where as in Gt5p a lot of the cars are more twitchy and more realistic feeling with the lift-off oversteer and just the general over-steer/under-steer feel. I wish i could afford the Fanatec to give a fair comparison between them. The racing with gamepad in FM3 is still fun, but i bought it more for the Drifting/tracks and customization. I wasn't expecting too much out of it so i wasn't disappointed. A LOT of the cars in FM3 do have a similar feel, even in different class/drive train platforms which i found odd, but overall a great game for what it is.

-Robert 👍

 

[MaccGyver]

Bought the Xbox Elite and forza bundle because i couldn't wait till march or later for GT5.
And I'm gettin bored of this game allready
Iv'e done 1000's of laps around suzuka in a california every week since GT5P came out and it keeps gettin better.
Forza is a good game but it will not be a GT5 beater and isn't a GT5P beater in terms of racing online against good opposition.

The online setup of forza is useless, dont understand what they were doing there.
The damage model isn't great,I can understand why Kaz wouldn't want to put it in GT5 if this is the best it can be. I would rather not have it if it was like this.
Makes the game feel too arcadey.

Too many graphical glitches in the game too.
The Back to the Future hoverboard car glitch is funny.
Watching a car float down the road in front of me and then head straight for the moon before returning to earth is funny.
Theres jaggies everywhere too.

Anyway this game is good but it will not be better than GT5, it would need alot more polishing off in terms of everything to get the feeling that GT gives.
After playing this game i can't wait for GT5 because i know that Polyphony would not realease GT5 in this condition.

Peace.

 

[Moglet]

You obviously haven't driven the Fiat 500.

Or most other small, light cars for that matter. Not only is my 500 (in the game) a right pain for it, but my Abarth 131 does the same too, and that's set up to run as fast as possible uphill.

As for these glitches that everyone goes on about, I've not come across a single one and I'm at level 37. If you go looking for faults, you will find them. The same applies to GT5.

 

[Joey D]

I in the same boat as Loon and Mog, I don't understand how people aren't getting lift off oversteer. I use both traction and stability control and I still experience it.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I hope the same fans that were pissy about Dan G's comments are pissy about KY's comments. Talk about funny stuff. My how the tables have turned.

If he doesn't think FM3 is a sim, I hope he doesn't think GT is a sim either then.

 

[Kryz11]

The MS wheel is 270 degrees, not 120 degree, so it's realistic enough. The FFB is not incredible, but it is alright. Why should I get a better wheel before I can say it's better? What I'm saying is that to me, it seems that the game is much more difficult and realistic with the wheel. I can get a proper feel of the car and I have to use the same type of approach I would use in a PC racing sim (such as LFS) when I use the wheel in Forza 3 which leads me to believe that the physics model is different with a wheel. I know very well how to play a game with a steering wheel and what a feeling of 'realistic physics' are. I've been playing PC racing games with steering wheel and pedals since 1998 and I have played and own majority of PC race sims out there, Live For Speed, GT Legends, rFactor, iRacing, Grand Prix Legends, Grand Prix 4, I could go on. If you want me, I'll post you a screenshot of my three 24" LCD monitor setup with Logitech G25 steering wheel playing GTR 2.

You can choose to believe me or not, what I'm saying is that as far as I can tell, the physics model or at least the assists model for Forza 3 is more realistic when using the MS wheel. I have not used the Fanatec wheel and I cannot comment on that. If Fanatec actually offered their wheel for sale through distributors than their crappy website, then I might have considered buying one.

Kaz can say a lot of things about Forza 3, but the physics are definitely there. The only things wrong with Forza 3 are the fact that the online matchmaking sucks, and that there will always be certain cars that dominate some of the classes, and the fact that Logitech wheels (G25, DFP, etc) do not work on Xbox 360.

FYI, I can drive too fast and brake too late and get great lap times in GT5 Prologue. I've played iRacing quite a bit and GT5 Prologue feels nothing like iRacing at all. Forza 3 actually does feel a bit like iRacing with the wheel, in terms of having to be super careful on the throttle and brakes, but maybe that's just the fact I was driving a BMW M3 GTR with stock setup in Forza 3. That being said, I would say neither GT5P or Forza 3 are close at all to the iRacing physics so I don't think you can make that statement.

Yeah you are right,
but GTR2, all the other sims you wrote are old.. if you play iRacing, the best SIM out there, best feedback out there you will see that GT5P is very similar to that game in many aspects from physics to feedback.

About your wheel, I never play MS wheel, but even SRT did say that that wheel is not that great, as well they said Fanatec does feel better over MS wheel on FM3. And don't you need full 900 degree for 900 degree cars?

Also I have Fanatec RS wheel and G25, even playing same game as GT5, GTR2, and iRacing both wheels feel like night and day with simulation and feedback. So yeah a better wheel does matter.

I am still yet to have to buy the Turbo S wheel, but even now I can say FM3 is not as that of a sim as people think.

 

[Joey D]

I hope the same fans that were pissy about Dan G's comments are pissy about KY's comments. Talk about funny stuff. My how the tables have turned.

If he doesn't think FM3 is a sim, I hope he doesn't think GT is a sim either then.

They won't be pissy though because is idolised as a scaled down version of God.

And I agree to a point, Forza isn't a sim but neither is GT. They are both still video games with simulation characteristics, but neither are full on sims.

 

[Mark T]

When anyone mentions simulators I think of flight simulators which are used to train real life pilots. What we need is for those same people who make the flight simulators to produce the simulation element for racing games. PD can produce the graphics.

 

[Joey D]

When anyone mentions simulators I think of flight simulators which are used to train real life pilots. What we need is for those same people who make the flight simulators to produce the simulation element for racing games. PD can produce the graphics.

👍

Agree completely. That would be pretty amazing in fact and would be very realistic.

 

[Bogie 19th]

When anyone mentions simulators I think of flight simulators which are used to train real life pilots. What we need is for those same people who make the flight simulators to produce the simulation element for racing games. PD can produce the graphics.

Anyone ever use that Microsoft Flight Simulator on PC? The number of options in that thing is beyond mind boggling. Sadly, I think the 911 attackers used that sim in their planning

 

[the Interceptor]

May I just kindly slip in that Kaz did not say that Forza 3 isn't a sim? He said:

I was watching the guys at our company trying it out in the office. I tried it a little bit. It's very similar in a lot of aspects to Gran Turismo. Some base components of the game are very different from Gran Turismo. It's a little bit different from what a simulator is. You can feel it when you drive it.

Add some slightly dodgy translation to that, and end up with ... nothing. Nothing to seriously discuss at least.

 

[Joey D]

Anyone ever use that Microsoft Flight Simulator on PC? The number of options in that thing is beyond mind boggling. Sadly, I think the 911 attackers used that sim in their planning

MSFS isn't a 100% unfortunately. It leaves a lot of stuff out but is fairly realistic. I've only ever flown small Cessna's in real life (I took a couple flight lessons but never pursued it), which felt like the game but there is so much more you have to know and do on a real aeroplane.

I think Mark's talking about the big training simulations they use, which are very powerful and extremely realistic.

 

[Bogie 19th]

May I just kindly slip in that Kaz did not say that Forza 3 isn't a sim? He said:

Semantics. I see that as him saying exactly that it's not a sim.

MSFS isn't a 100% unfortunately. It leaves a lot of stuff out but is fairly realistic. I've only ever flown small Cessna's in real life (I took a couple flight lessons but never pursued it), which felt like the game but there is so much more you have to know and do on a real aeroplane.

I think Mark's talking about the big training simulations they use, which are very powerful and extremely realistic.

I wouldn't know, as I have never piloted anything but my car and offroad vehicles . I just read that those terrorists used the MSFS to help crash into our buildings

 

[Mark T]

MSFS isn't a 100% unfortunately. It leaves a lot of stuff out but is fairly realistic. I've only ever flown small Cessna's in real life (I took a couple flight lessons but never pursued it), which felt like the game but there is so much more you have to know and do on a real aeroplane.

I think Mark's talking about the big training simulations they use, which are very powerful and extremely realistic.

Yeh I'm talking about the training simulators which must be incredibly accurate.

 

[MustangSVT]

I can't give a fair comparison of Gt5p to FM3 physics as i have a G25 for Gt5p and only the gamepad/controller for FM3, but i WILL say that playing with the controller with NO aids, and manual shifting (no clutch) is A LOT easier than playing with a controller in GT5p, ESPECIALLY for drifting.

I completely disagree with this. Ive played GT5P with controller with ALL aids off on pro physics and I thought it was easy to handle. In fact, I find GT5P in general to be easy to drive a fast lap (even with the Ferrari F2007 car), much more so than Forza 3 with the steering wheel. This is of course just my opinion so I will not argue this any further since it appears some of you guys have had a different experience.

 

[G.T.Ace]

May I just kindly slip in that Kaz did not say that Forza 3 isn't a sim? He said:


Add some slightly dodgy translation to that, and end up with ... nothing. Nothing to seriously discuss at least.

This.

 

[FoolKiller]

I hope the same fans that were pissy about Dan G's comments are pissy about KY's comments. Talk about funny stuff. My how the tables have turned.

I almost didn't respond because I sort of agreed, but then decided to go look up Greenwalt's comments again.

Let's compare:

KY (translated):

"I tried it a little bit. It's very similar in a lot of aspects to Gran Turismo. Some base components of the game are very different from Gran Turismo. It's a little bit different from what a simulator is. You can feel it when you drive it."

DG:

“So, props to Kazunori Yamauchi-san and the PS1 team. That said, I feel that he’s passed us the baton. Perhaps he hasn’t meant to, but we have taken the genre to new levels and they’ve stopped evolving the genre. So again, tremendous respect to him, but I’d say the differentiator is they’re old school. The emperor’s naked, and I don’t want to, you know, I don’t want to slap him around, but no game competes [with] us right now.”

I can see some attitude difference there. Yamauchi doesn't really say if he thinks it is better or not. Greenwalt uses a literary reference to accuse Yamauchi of vanity and pride. Ironically, he then finishes by saying how no one competes with them.