Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[ZedMan1996]

And on what planet does GT5's physics dominate Forza?

You know what, this isn't the thread for that and I apologize - back on topic. If you're going to reply to me (and I hope you do. ) do so in the appropriate thread.

*clears throat* Gran Turismo dominates the one not to be mentioned

 

[Terronium-12]

*clears throat* Gran Turismo dominates the one not to be mentioned

How does GT5 dominate Forza 4? I'm genuinely interested.

 

[GTP_Gearhead]

I'd like to know as well.

Although the new update has much improved tire noise, and seemingly more linear force feedback.

But, I still have both games and enjoy them each very much. I do most of my online with GT5, and all of my customizing with FM4.

 

[Spagetti69]

*clears throat* Gran Turismo dominates the one not to be mentioned

This is Forza vs GT thread, not Pole position vs GT.

Duh some people eh.

 

[Tornado]

This is Forza vs GT thread, not Pole position vs GT.

Duh some people eh.

Hey, at least Pole Position had qualifying.

 

[Spagetti69]

Hey, at least Pole Position had qualifying.

Wow. I'm old enough to remember but that totally slipped me.
I just remember putting in credit and having a time limit to get to the point where you get maybe an extra 30 seconds.

Damn my old mind is foggy.

 

[Goshin2568]

I'm sorry to bring this back up, but regarding GT5 having engine braking, it definitely has it to some degree. I'm not sure about how much it will slow down your car when downshifting, but the drive wheels locking feature is for sure in GT5. If you take, say, a rear wheel drive car on a straight in 4th gear, and shift straight down into 1st and dump the clutch, the rear wheels will lock and you will spin out. I'm not saying GT5's engine braking is great, but for those who are saying the rear wheels won't lock when you compression brake, you are just wrong. I promise.

 

[1241Penguin]

There is engine braking. Going from 5th to 4th to 3rd to 2nd using an H-shifter with clutch quickly, the car will slow down a lot quicker than if you downshifted avoiding over revving.

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

There is engine braking. Going from 5th to 4th to 3rd to 2nd using an H-shifter with clutch quickly, the car will slow down a lot quicker than if you downshifted avoiding over revving.

Also, if you still don't believe it, sit at 40mph (or some other reasonably low speed) and shift into 5th/6th come off the gas. Notice how the car barely scrubs off any speed?

Now do the same and shift into 2nd and notice the rate at which the car sheds speed has increased. 👍

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

A video I recently uploaded, Ferrari F40 at Monza, grip real, stock - no tuning, sports hard tires, no ABS or other aids, 10/7 BB, 2:01.7xxx time.

Engine braking is evident, physics seems to have been tweaked, grip loss is not as sudden as before and crank up the volume - listen to the sound in the 2.08 version.

 

[blah blah blah]

Isn't it interesting that more people think GT5 is superior to Forza on GTP but it's Vica Versa on Forza Planet?

 

[amar212]

Isn't it interesting that more people think GT5 is superior to Forza on GTP but it's Vica Versa on Forza Planet?

99% of them on both sides haven't actually properly tried both games in order to establish even remotely contextualized opinion of actual foundations for their preference.

 

[dylansan]

I haven't played Forza 4 but I'm becoming increasingly jealous of those who do have it. It sounds like it does almost everything better than GT, including physics, which surprised me.

I would need to get a new wheel to play it though, and I will say that GT5's much better lighting would make it hard to get used to Forza's appearance. I think I'll just wait and see what GT6 is like. Maybe that'll satisfy me.

 

[skazz]

There are many reasons why different people will prefer one or the other.... For instance EU or US TV not properly set can make one or the other look very unrealistic colours. For instance the wheel you are using and exactly which FFB settings you are using in game and on wheel, and therefore how the FFB affects your experience.

Having owned GT5 and Forza 4 since launch, I've had periods of switching back and forwards between them. I play them both on my Fanatec GT2 with Clubsport pedals. It's taken me months to tweak my FFB settings in each, to complement their strengths and give me an end result I like. I still play both regularly, which means they both do enough right that there's not just one choice.

However... If I had to choose today, it would most definitely be Forza 4 as the preferred choice. There are a bunch of reasons for that, not just driving model:
- more interesting car list (also thanks to superb DLC over the last year)
- way better menus and just less time spent waiting for load screens and clunky interface
- nicely done cockpit views, made deliberately so you can see the road and mirrors (not just slapping the view in the car at a generic point)
- AI which isn't super fast but at least you have the feeling that you're racing
- better tyre model, without GT5's strange feeling of penalising you for grip loss in a very arbitrary way. In Forza everything feels more progressive on the edge of grip and regaining grip, especially when locking up and sliding.
- more communicative FFB which tells you more about car weight and grip (but the lack of track surface details in the FFB is a downside)

(GT5 obviously has a better track list, higher quality lighting and the premium cars are superbly modelled)

I just find myself smiling much more when playing Forza

 

[thelvynau]

There are many reasons why different people will prefer one or the other.... For instance EU or US TV not properly set can make one or the other look very unrealistic colours. For instance the wheel you are using and exactly which FFB settings you are using in game and on wheel, and therefore how the FFB affects your experience.

Having owned GT5 and Forza 4 since launch, I've had periods of switching back and forwards between them. I play them both on my Fanatec GT2 with Clubsport pedals. It's taken me months to tweak my FFB settings in each, to complement their strengths and give me an end result I like. I still play both regularly, which means they both do enough right that there's not just one choice.

However... If I had to choose today, it would most definitely be Forza 4 as the preferred choice. There are a bunch of reasons for that, not just driving model:
- more interesting car list (also thanks to superb DLC over the last year)
- way better menus and just less time spent waiting for load screens and clunky interface
- nicely done cockpit views, made deliberately so you can see the road and mirrors (not just slapping the view in the car at a generic point)
- AI which isn't super fast but at least you have the feeling that you're racing
- better tyre model, without GT5's strange feeling of penalising you for grip loss in a very arbitrary way. In Forza everything feels more progressive on the edge of grip and regaining grip, especially when locking up and sliding.
- more communicative FFB which tells you more about car weight and grip (but the lack of track surface details in the FFB is a downside)

(GT5 obviously has a better track list, higher quality lighting and the premium cars are superbly modelled)

I just find myself smiling much more when playing Forza

I think you mentioned only one point about the physics in forza and thats the tyre model which I agree with you forza has the more realistic model.

 

[1241Penguin]

A video I recently uploaded, Ferrari F40 at Monza, grip real, stock - no tuning, sports hard tires, no ABS or other aids, 10/7 BB, 2:01.7xxx time.

Engine braking is evident, physics seems to have been tweaked, grip loss is not as sudden as before and crank up the volume - listen to the sound in the 2.08 version.

*video*

Out of curiosity, is that using sequential mode? Because the engine braking is much more evident when using an H-shifter and clutch pedal.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Out of curiosity, is that using sequential mode? Because the engine braking is much more evident when using an H-shifter and clutch pedal.

Yes possibly it is.

Like discussed in a thread for GT5 that talks about the no ABS community. That in GT5 Racing with abs on is different how it works besides real life. The problem is abs in gt5 has many other stability assist along with it.

When running no abs it isn't exactly engine breaking like down shifting with the clutch and H pattern shifter (G25/G27/Thrustmaster) but it is seen. If you are a skilled no abs driver on gt5 you can use it to be sort of like engine braking (but not as effective as having the wheel's capabilities)

The RPMs drop faster (when properly braking aka not close to locking up the wheels) that looks like engine braking.


A lot of people forget that with those wheels plus a few more you can engine brake. I surprised people still don't know this.

 

[1241Penguin]

Something is definitely wrong with GT5's braking. Without ABS, if you push the brake pedal down (using H-shifter and clutch), the revs will drop to 0 RPM, essentially turning the engine off. Theoretically, this should happen in FWDs, but definitely not in AWDs and RWDs.

Also, compared to iRacing, GT5's braking is a lot more "smoother," in the sense that braking in GT5 is like having an invisible force slow the car down, whereas in iRacing, braking is a lot more messy.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Something is definitely wrong with GT5's braking. Without ABS, if you push the brake pedal down (using H-shifter and clutch), the revs will drop to 0 RPM, essentially turning the engine off. Theoretically, this should happen in FWDs, but definitely not in AWDs and RWDs.

Also, compared to iRacing, GT5's braking is a lot more "smoother," in the sense that braking in GT5 is like having an invisible force slow the car down, whereas in iRacing, braking is a lot more messy.

I have never had a problem with the RPMs (i use DFGT) since I have gotten skilled at not using ABS. Also I have many friends that own G25s and G27s (i envy them i just haven't had the time to save money for one) and i only see them lock up once in a while.

Also it depends on how you have your brake balance set too. I usually use around 4-5 in the front and 1-2 in the rear doing this creates a good balance. And i can ask them their brake balance that they use but i am almost positive that they don't go over 4-5 considering they gave me that advice

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Out of curiosity, is that using sequential mode? Because the engine braking is much more evident when using an H-shifter and clutch pedal.

I am using stick and manual, with ABS off, I can still feel the engine braking, this is more noticeable when I brake hard then suddenly let go off the brakes when the engine is still in high / peak rpm in 1st / 2nd gear.

 

[Lock2Lock]

I am using stick and manual, with ABS off, I can still feel the engine braking, this is more noticeable when I brake hard then suddenly let go off the brakes when the engine is still in high / peak rpm in 1st / 2nd gear.

This is true.
But you got to remember that I believe what penguin means is when you shift down on a wheel like the G27/G25/Thrustmaster the engine will brake the car faster than on a wheel like mine/DS3 without using the brake witch they do not engine brake.

 

[sik180sx]

Something is definitely wrong with GT5's braking. Without ABS, if you push the brake pedal down (using H-shifter and clutch), the revs will drop to 0 RPM, essentially turning the engine off. Theoretically, this should happen in FWDs, but definitely not in AWDs and RWDs.

Do you mean not pressing the clutch,and only the brake pedal while moving?Trying to stop the car?It will stall any car,no matter the drivetrain.

 

[cuco33]

99% of them on both sides haven't actually properly tried both games in order to establish even remotely contextualized opinion of actual foundations for their preference.

I would say that gt bias on gtplanet is faaaaaaaaaaar more than it is on forzaplanet. Most of the posters on FP have actually played (and enjoyed) GT games. Hell most posters come from this site!

Regarding the conversations about engine braking, personally I can brake faster by aggressively downshifting and letting the tach ping redline like mad while braking hard. I try to prevent this but if I go into a turn to hot I think I slow down faster/better by being aggressive with my downshifts (pad and wheel, no clutch used though, no assists aside from ABS at 1). I doubt it's placebo too and it doesn't matter what car setup or power. I have noticed that I might lose some grip on lighter and more powerful cars but it is very manageable.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I would say that gt bias on gtplanet is faaaaaaaaaaar more than it is on forzaplanet. Most of the posters on FP have actually played (and enjoyed) GT games. Hell most posters come from this site!

Regarding the conversations about engine braking, personally I can brake faster by aggressively downshifting and letting the tach ping redline like mad while doing so. I try to prevent this but if I go into a turn to hot I think I slow down faster/better by being aggressive with my downshifts (pad and wheel, no clutch used though, no assists aside from ABS at 1). I doubt it's placebo too and it doesn't matter what car setup or power. I have noticed that I might lose some grip on lighter and more powerful cars but it is very manageable.

You should try braking like that with ABS off, use very low BB 2/1 for a start, in my experience, it's not the same with ABS:1

By the way, a bit off topic, I have a video thread, please watch them when you are free, thanks.

Compilation videos of NO ABS - HIGH BB driving in GT5

 

[GTP_Gearhead]

There are many reasons why different people will prefer one or the other.... For instance EU or US TV not properly set can make one or the other look very unrealistic colours. For instance the wheel you are using and exactly which FFB settings you are using in game and on wheel, and therefore how the FFB affects your experience.

Having owned GT5 and Forza 4 since launch, I've had periods of switching back and forwards between them. I play them both on my Fanatec GT2 with Clubsport pedals. It's taken me months to tweak my FFB settings in each, to complement their strengths and give me an end result I like. I still play both regularly, which means they both do enough right that there's not just one choice.

However... If I had to choose today, it would most definitely be Forza 4 as the preferred choice. There are a bunch of reasons for that, not just driving model:
- more interesting car list (also thanks to superb DLC over the last year)
- way better menus and just less time spent waiting for load screens and clunky interface
- nicely done cockpit views, made deliberately so you can see the road and mirrors (not just slapping the view in the car at a generic point)
- AI which isn't super fast but at least you have the feeling that you're racing
- better tyre model, without GT5's strange feeling of penalising you for grip loss in a very arbitrary way. In Forza everything feels more progressive on the edge of grip and regaining grip, especially when locking up and sliding.
- more communicative FFB which tells you more about car weight and grip (but the lack of track surface details in the FFB is a downside)

(GT5 obviously has a better track list, higher quality lighting and the premium cars are superbly modelled)

I just find myself smiling much more when playing Forza

This I agree with after 2 years of GT5, and a little over a year with Forza Motorsport 4.

The only thing that deters me with Forza is the strange light effects they use. It produces this sheen on the track surface I've tried unsuccessfully to tone down with the LCD settings. It's either too bright, or too dark.

I think for many, they've just played GT for so long, they refuse to give Forza a chance. That's how I felt initially. The first time I tried FM4, I thought oh man, this is weird. But trust me, it grows on you, and soon after you realize the physics are damn good.
The way it replicates loss of traction in an understeer situation is nothing short of impressive. The ability to adjust tire pressure is outstanding.
Plus, T-12 does a fantastic job over there keeping the community involved, and the conversation is just a little more relaxed.

I still play GT occasionally, and this is all just my opinion.

 

[Stephanos82]

I'd been trying to understand which game has best physics for a long time now.. My obsession lead to my buying the csr elite ( your fault amar ) a gameracer chair and csr shifter. About a year ago, I also started getting into real track day driving ( I live in Cyprus , we car rent cars at the one and only track we have, Achna Speedway). I have spent a small fortune renting the EVO III, S13 and s14! ) haven't got into drifting yet, but i do like to let the rear end of the silvias slide from time to time ( rent for drifting costs much more than time attack so I always try not to overdo it I usually yell that there's too much pressure on the rear wheels which causes oversteer and messes my laptimes to hode the fact that I'd been tiny-drifting on purpose! )

Back to topic, prior yo buying the csr elite, I honestly thought that forza 4 had much much better physics from what I could translate through control use! I loved torque steer, the suspension feeling, the feeling of weight going up and down sqeezing the tires, it all felt amazing! I remember first test i did was with mclaren f1 tsukuba! Watch the video from best motoring and also the one with Tiff needel! See how the car acts like a see-saw with suspenion travel every time they brake or accelerate. And lots and lots of grip! In gt5 to compensate with time I think u need CS or even CM.. :/ u can match the real time but of course when u watch the replay it has nothing to do with the reality of the real driving videos! I tried f4, and i was just abig quicker than real lap time and the car seemed to behave much more like the real life one ( in gt5 the car never ceases to burnout.. and it's like u r driving on ice!! )
Paid about €1000 investing in wheel, chair etc and f4 is a disappoinent.. Ffb sucks and in no way gives you any realistic feeling / the ooposite probably is correct as u get sudden kicks of ffb and sudden loss which makes for a sad experience..
Good news , csr elite is perfect with gt5 but it's not the second coming as many pointed it to be so.. (hype hype hype)
So I'm back to square one..
Thankfully, I have discovered a game which makes all these pages of debate/ fights obsolete. It's called LFS! If you haven't tried it , then I believe it's not fair talking about proper physics.. Both forza and gt5 should not dare talk about realistic driving physics just because this little game exists!
Long post --> I will try to make a triple VS video lfs vs f4 vs gt5. I
I also hope to have my first dedicated drift and will capture it on video so we can compare wgat months of drifting in lfs can do
Sorry for pong post and grammatical mistakes - posting from iphone !

 

[sailworksman]

This I agree with after 2 years of GT5, and a little over a year with Forza Motorsport 4.

I think for many, they've just played GT for so long, they refuse to give Forza a chance. That's how I felt initially. The first time I tried FM4, I thought oh man, this is weird. But trust me, it grows on you, and soon after you realize the physics are damn good.

The way it replicates loss of traction in an understeer situation is nothing short of impressive. The ability to adjust tire pressure is outstanding.
Plus, T-12 does a fantastic job over there keeping the community involved, and the conversation is just a little more relaxed.

I still play GT occasionally, and this is all just my opinion.

I agree, some GT players should give it a chance. I have the old $99 Microsoft 360 Wheel, and have a blast with it. I can run with the best of them online. And on occasion, I win! LOL! You just need to take the time and adjust the settings on the car, and if you have the cheepy wheel, micro fine tune it as well. Then bingo! It's game on. FM different? Yes, but nothing that can't be overcome.

 

[Sele1981]

I started playing Forza 4 again (with the Fanatec GT2) and still think the physics are strange. The car feels so worse in corners if you get understeer. The wheel loses it´s force feedback and feels soft and "empty".

The physics in GT5 feel as good as in respected PC sims. It feels pretty realistic. So I voted for GT5. I bought my Xbox for Forza but GT5 is the better game in physics and track accuracy. The Nordschleife in Forza is a worse joke.

In other things, Forza is the better game. Like car selection, community features etc. But it loses at the (for me) important points.

 

[ZohsixGT5]

For me the car doesn't feel like it's connected to the road in Forza. I can't really describe it, but like you said above, the FFB gets kind of sketchy.

 

[Scaff]

I started playing Forza 4 again (with the Fanatec GT2) and still think the physics are strange. The car feels so worse in corners if you get understeer. The wheel loses it´s force feedback and feels soft and "empty".

You are aware that's exactly what happens when tyres loose traction due to lateral loading?

Self Aligning Torque (steering resistance) builds are load is placed on the tyre and then shortly before the limit of grip is reached it drops off dramatically. What FM4 models (not perfectly by any means) is exactly what is supposed to happen.

Its discussed at length in this thread https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=260294

The physics in GT5 feel as good as in respected PC sims. It feels pretty realistic. So I voted for GT5.

I can't agree that GT5's physics are even close to a good PC sim, given that GT5 tyre and suspension model is still very, very basic.

The Nordschleife in Forza is a worse joke.

The Nordschleife is FM4 is poor (its better than it was - but is still not good enough - however the reasons behind that are well know - MS gave T10 the models created for the PGR series and insisted they were used). However that doesn't then make all the real tracks in FM4 inaccurate, plenty of the others are very well modeled.