Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)
- Thread starter Nicholas9889
- 2,140 comments
- 238,068 views
- 446
- Tokyo
GT5 dev team is probably aware of all these issues. I bet they have done many many research about car physics, and its not their first Gran Turismo.
I know that Japanese people will work very hard to give the best result to the player.
(I work on a Japanese company myself).
IMO, Gran Turismo and Forza franchise are both games that need to be sold to a very very large public.
Therefore, the dev team as surely been asked to make some sacrifice about the realism in order to make games playable by a large public.
If the game was too realistic, people would loose the control of the car or stall the engine all the time. And the game would loose some fun and popularity for a large public of lambda players.
Also, another issue is that all people do not have a racing wheel, so they need to think about making a game that can be handled with a gamepad easily.
And we all know that adjusting the direction on a gamepad is very limited.
So this may explain why GT and Forza does have some lack of realism in some category.
As i am developing a racing sim myself, i am exactly aware of these issue.
Should i make the game more realistic and harder to play and less fun for a lot of people ?
Or should i sacrifice some realism in order to allow the player to drift with a gamepad ?
For sure you will not reach the same public.
Sorry, i was a bit off topic.
ps: Please forgive my bad English.
I know that Japanese people will work very hard to give the best result to the player.
(I work on a Japanese company myself).
IMO, Gran Turismo and Forza franchise are both games that need to be sold to a very very large public.
Therefore, the dev team as surely been asked to make some sacrifice about the realism in order to make games playable by a large public.
If the game was too realistic, people would loose the control of the car or stall the engine all the time. And the game would loose some fun and popularity for a large public of lambda players.
Also, another issue is that all people do not have a racing wheel, so they need to think about making a game that can be handled with a gamepad easily.
And we all know that adjusting the direction on a gamepad is very limited.
So this may explain why GT and Forza does have some lack of realism in some category.
As i am developing a racing sim myself, i am exactly aware of these issue.
Should i make the game more realistic and harder to play and less fun for a lot of people ?
Or should i sacrifice some realism in order to allow the player to drift with a gamepad ?
For sure you will not reach the same public.
Sorry, i was a bit off topic.
ps: Please forgive my bad English.
- 5,897
- Canada
Then perhaps PD shouldn't market the GT series as "The Real Driving Simulator". Besides, they already have an "easy" mode for the less hardcore players, called "Skid Recovery Force".
I mean, I get your point, but what that means basically is that the GT series doesn't even know what itself is.
I mean, I get your point, but what that means basically is that the GT series doesn't even know what itself is.
- 446
- Tokyo
@1241Penguin
Maybe, if we go back in time a little bit, when the first gran turismo arrived on the PSX, it was truly a masterpiece for console gamers.
It was the first console game that succeed in replicating good car physics, and GT just outrun a lot of concurrent and took the lead in the car sims category.
At this time "The Real Driving Simulator" ad much sens.
But now it is different, there are many very good concurrent in the market, + PC sims that have very accurate tire models etc.
I have to agree that "The Real Driving Simulator" is more for marketing use now...
Even in the ps2 Area, Enthusia was already ahead of GT with a very smart tire model.
Maybe, if we go back in time a little bit, when the first gran turismo arrived on the PSX, it was truly a masterpiece for console gamers.
It was the first console game that succeed in replicating good car physics, and GT just outrun a lot of concurrent and took the lead in the car sims category.
At this time "The Real Driving Simulator" ad much sens.
But now it is different, there are many very good concurrent in the market, + PC sims that have very accurate tire models etc.
I have to agree that "The Real Driving Simulator" is more for marketing use now...
Even in the ps2 Area, Enthusia was already ahead of GT with a very smart tire model.
- 5,897
- Canada
Here's a quick video I cooked up demonstrating the "engine braking" (if it even is that):
Please tell me if you want me to change something, or if I'm doing something incorrectly. Don't hesitate. 👍
Please tell me if you want me to change something, or if I'm doing something incorrectly. Don't hesitate. 👍
- 126
- Turkey
- odyofil
Lol, omg , thats what im talking about, thank you for the vid, if you do that in forza, the car massively over revving and, a huge slow down, control lose on front wheels, and o get damage in engine.
- 4,004
- Croatia
Not only tyre model. Physics-wise and especially car-feel wise (if there is even such *category*), Enthusia is probably the best driving game of previous generation. Besides tyres and that crazy feel for the vehicle they've also modelled astonishing representation of gearbox-differences and such.
Masterpiece game.
Interesting Fact of the day: The Enthusia's director of physics programming - Yutaka Ito - moved over to Polyphony Digital after Konami disassembled original Enthusia team. He joined Akihiko Tan (GT physics programmer) and his team and worked on GT5
rologue on creation of next-gen GT engine. However, for GT5 he moved to AI department, where he's credited for work on AI. Video says it all 👍
- 1,471
- hennessey_86 and GTP_evox
- hennessey861
I play both games with a wheel and I must say that if you look at both games with an even mind set you will see Forza 4 is the more realistic game, GT5 is a great sim with a tyre model that lets it down so much. Why did PD concentrate so much on Premium cars when they could have been making the tire model better and doing what GT has always been about, the handling. Honestly GT peaked at number 3 and since then Polyphony have just added more content rather that improving the overall product. Why have over 1000 cars if none of them handle the way they should do, this is my problem with the overly loyal GT fan. They praise GT5 even though they know them selves its a huge let down and to top it all off then go and attack Forza 4 when really they should be thinking. Great PD finally has to up there game, forza has set the bench mark now which will make PD up there game. This will benifit us all in the long run, we will have two great console sims trying to out do each other making the games even better.
- 422
- Wroclaw
- fifomaniak
The car automatically engages clutch when you do that, look at gear indicator, it goes gray/transparent. That means clutch is engaged. Why PD did it like that? I see at least 2 reasons:
1. There is no good model of mechanichal damage in GT5. Overreving engine like that should do damage to both engine and gearbox (due to to high revolutions) and there is no such damage yet in GT5.
2. If this would be more efficient than normal braking, people would use it in races, time trials etc. which would be completely unrealistic, hence clutch engages, so there is no point of doing that.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Make sense to me.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,441
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
Compression braking is not a more effective way of slowing a car down.
In the video just shown if the clutch were engaged and compression braking modelled correctly the driven wheels would just have locked to a massive degree. Best case scenario would be a large reduction in braking efficiency, worst case scenario would be a total loss of control.
Sorry but braking efficiency is not a reason to nerf compression braking at all, its a reason to model it, as it stands no penalty for miss-shifting to a gear to low or falling to heel and toe correctly exists.
- 939
jujunosuke
Great post. What would you say? Which physics is more realistic in our opinion? Forza or GT? Which are the advantage or disadvantage ?
Thx in advance
BTW: You english is fine
1241Penguin
That's marketing. I mean PS3 "It only does everything" isn't true too.
Can the PS3 use a CrossVoiceChat or walk?
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
fifomaniak
If the clutch is engaged why is the Engine revving it's nuts off? Is the driver not realising the throttle?
- 2,012
gamepad = hidden assists.
wheel = include everything, for example engine breaking, engine damage and all that.
lfs is an awesome example of how a sim should be made.
- 7,601
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
Most of the casual and first time players I see getting into GT crash already. Even though it's flawed, it's already complicated enough to throw off some people. I don't think increasing the realism would really be that much of a detriment to either GT or Forza. If anything, it would allow people to use more real world techniques and knowledge.
Some things will of course be made more complex; more weight transfer in GT would make the car easier to upset, brake fade would make it harder to be consistent, wings with drag would need to set up instead of just bolted on, and a better tire model would make going from one car to another more difficult, but I think it would just come down to learning different things.
Also, there is no reason why the game has to only offer extreme realism. The driver aids, including the physics defying SRF could be retained, and there could be all kinds of simplifications built in for different players.
This simulator is one of the best there is right now:
(mild language warning for this vid)
But that doesn't stop it from having a game mode
- 446
- Tokyo
Thanks
Sadly i can't tell you because i only played GT5 !
@Exorcet
If i meet one PD guy before leaving Japan, i will ask him lol.
My thread about my car physics game btw.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=258279
- 5,897
- Canada
If anyone is wondering, in the first half of the video, I accelerated up to 200 km/h before downshifting to first gear using the paddles on the G27. This is equivalent to people downshifting using the DS3; you can't jump from gear to gear. As the car was slowing down, my foot was completely off the accelerator, so the open throttle you see in the video is the game, not me.
In the second half of the video, I accelerated up to 200 km/h before downshifting to first gear directly. I used the clutch and H-shifter of the G27 to do this.
There was an initial slowing down, as you can see from the heated up rear tires on the car, but there was no moving from side to side; it was very stable.
- 355
- Georgia
- Shalashaska523
Just to add my 2 cents but I've played both gt5 and forza and I like things from both things but one thing I've noticed for the top of my mind is the gear changes. Forza you shift (just manual no clutch) it still takes a second for the "driver" to move the shifter and the gear to engage. But GT its like every car has flappy paddle Ferrari gear boxes and it's nothing to big but I actually like that. And that they have a drag strip
- 422
- Wroclaw
- fifomaniak
Ok Scaff I know what Tenacious is talking about because I have the same problem, maybe not with every car but with a lot of them it seems like mid corner the car just wants to keep turning, and then i have to jam on the brakes to correct it. Now idk if its because I don't have a tune on any of my cars because I don't know how to tune and I'll be damned if I'm gonna pay people for tunes because I think that's ridiculous, or what the deal is. And sometimes its on turn in as well if I'm not super touchy with the turn in i get oversteer which I don't experience in GT5. Other than this issue I have no problems with Forza 4, I'm quite enjoying it but I do wish I could correct this somehow, so any suggestions would be great.
-Slagithor
-Slagithor
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
Slagithor
If your experiencing oversteer try softening the rear anti roll bars or stiffening the front.
Use the telemetry that shows grip levels and aim to get all 4 tires breaking loose simultaneously.
There's a whole lot more to tuning than that (Camber, temps, tire pressures etc) but that's a start for you.
Just to add, why not pay someone for there hard work, Tunes can be a mixed bag because you don't actually see what your getting for your money.
My paints on my Store front are mostly free but I don't begrudge anyone charging. You pay or you don't. Money is easy to come by in F4.
Your Happy to download free tunes I suppose. That's not ridiculous to you is it?
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- 5,761
- USA
- TPC_Raccooon23
- CRaccoon23
Another reason why I think Forza has better physics. Yesterday, I took a stock 370Z on Suzuka East in both games and tried to drift both of them around the track. After going at it for about an hour, I was pretty little shocked at how easy it was to slide the car around corners in GT5. I didn't notice such ease when I did it in Forza.
- 770
Is it just me or does the rate of deceleration remain consistent no matter the speed?
In Forza (and real life for that matter) if you simply lift off or disengage the clutch at 160km/h you decelerate much faster than if you did at 100km/h or 60km/h because of aerodynamic drag. In that video, it seemed the deceleration seemed to remain constant from 200+mph down to about 60mph.
BlisteredHand
(Banned)
- 118
The video shows 2 different directions for 2 different tests, not fair test. The road may have an incline.
I know in some roads cars if you can actually manage to engage 1st gear at 30+mph from 2nd you would come to a jerky stop maybe locking wheels. Same for other gear too early down changes.
Not enough variety or detail going on regarding engine maps and real life scenarios.
I remember driving a real car once and accelerated in 1st gear flat out and didn't change up to 2nd, when it hit the very hard limiter it was like an emergency brake even though I was not on the brakes, I shot forward in my seat (with the belt on) and the engine stalled and red light came on. I had to restart and it was fine. That was what it was meant to do on high rpm in 1st gear. At the time I though I had broken the engine.
That was in a diesel lol. I haven't tried 1st limiter in my petrol cars, but they have soft limiters on the other gears
Seeing how GT5 behaves is not that impressive. Haven't driven Forza so can't comment on that aspect.
I know in some roads cars if you can actually manage to engage 1st gear at 30+mph from 2nd you would come to a jerky stop maybe locking wheels. Same for other gear too early down changes.
Not enough variety or detail going on regarding engine maps and real life scenarios.
I remember driving a real car once and accelerated in 1st gear flat out and didn't change up to 2nd, when it hit the very hard limiter it was like an emergency brake even though I was not on the brakes, I shot forward in my seat (with the belt on) and the engine stalled and red light came on. I had to restart and it was fine. That was what it was meant to do on high rpm in 1st gear. At the time I though I had broken the engine.
That was in a diesel lol. I haven't tried 1st limiter in my petrol cars, but they have soft limiters on the other gears
Seeing how GT5 behaves is not that impressive. Haven't driven Forza so can't comment on that aspect.
- 770
if there was enough of an incline to make a difference at that speed, it would be very noticeable.
That video shows not only a lack of engine breaking but incredibly incorrect aerodynamic drag too.
I was wrong, the rate does change but not anywhere near as much as it should.
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