Forza 5 physics vs GT6 аnd other sims

[UKMikey]

I don't know how expensive it was to model cars at Forza 5 levels in the Forza 2 days but I do know that iRacing has a solid revenue model in its upfront subscription fees even when compared to Turn10. Xbox charges for online of course but the money goes to MS not Turn10.

 

[Speedster911]

This discussion's getting rather ho hum. Does it really matter who's doing what better gentlemen? Both FM5 and iRacing's models look great. Let's leave it at that.

 

[SlyNine]

If you choose to make such a wild claim as this:

Why the heck do they waste their time redoing everything. Just do it once and capture EVERY detail you can and make a master copy with more detail then you can ever use. Do it right the first time and you shouldn't need to do it for a couple console generations at least.

Please have a valid explanation on how such a thing could happen because you take it for granted that it could be future proofed?

Keep in mind when Turn10 put out the 1st game they didn't know much more than that. It was their first game and they couldn't know from then how many installments they would make and what would be the next gen console. Let alone predictions on what would the polycount would be in the future etc. You take this for granted because these things have come to pass. A company making a new title is going safely with reasonable choices that don't involve big risks.

I believe I have told you all I know on the matter.

This I agree with. But I do think their model capturing from Forza 3/4 could have been alittle more forward thinking.

I'm not sure why my claims were so "wild" tho. I'm sure thier budget on Forza 1 was a lot tighter. But capturing the cars and tracks a very high level of detail will give Microsoft and Turn10 assets they can use in other games and for some time to come. I think we are at a point where remapping the geometry of a car (higher then Forza 5's) wont yield a very noticeable visual increases. Better shaders, ray tracing techniques, and things of those sorts will make the game look that much better.

 

[HAL20XX]

I'm still curious where it says they had to recapture these cars. I've read that they had to rebuild them from the ground up, but this isn't the same thing.

 

[Speedster911]

Okay, I'm a little lost here. Are you guys just debating for the sake of debating so as to what could have been better about FM5 graphically, or are you seriously saying the cars don't look all that great compared to FM4? Cos' from the little time I've had to spend with 5, along with the screens I've seen, I think they're downright stunning.

What I wish though, is for T10 to consider photorealistic graphics, improving shadows and lighting and doing away with the superpretty superperfect CGI look.

 

[SlyNine]

Okay, I'm a little lost here. Are you guys just debating for the sake of debating so as to what could have been better about FM5 graphically, or are you seriously saying the cars don't look all that great compared to FM4? Cos' from the little time I've had to spend with 5, along with the screens I've seen, I think they're downright stunning.

What I wish though, is for T10 to consider photorealistic graphics, improving shadows and lighting and doing away with the superpretty superperfect CGI look.

Honestly, I think I lost what point I was trying to debate lol. But it certainly wasn't that.

I think the game could use more effective shadows and lighting too. Forza 5's graphics seem to be very similar to 4, not just in artistic design either. I even notice some of the same hitching and graphical anomalies.

I have a feeling FM6 will look a lot better and include a lot of what was lost. Fingers crossed.

 

[Speedster911]

^^ Graphical anomalies like the floating tire syndrome right? They still haven't fixed the shadows.

If you remember FM4's Auto Vista models, I think that quality is what we're getting in 5 while driving. Almost.

Yeah, FM6 should bring a lot to the table. They better. Competition's about to get pretty fierce.

 

[King1982]

No matter what game is coming out in the next two years. Forza wins.

 

[HAL20XX]

^^^^ Based on what? While Polyphony has made some questionable choices with the series, several of those issues are limited by the hardware. Once on the PS4, we should see a noticeable improvement. The biggest challenge they have facing them is outdated assets and the potential loss of hundreds and hundreds of vehicles and several tracks.

 

[Wolfe]

I don't know what that video is supposed to prove.

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

i desperately miss the livery editor from forza. The last one I played was 3. I was a major contributor of decals and replicas in the FM3 community and spent just as much time painting as racing. The game was very fun as well and was miles ahead with vehicle customization. It was also miles ahead as far as tuning was concerned. There were parts of it that didn't make sense, like using heavier wheels so that you could have a few more HP. Just the ability to tune on the fly with on screen feedback made it exponentially better.

but...

GT6 and even 5 are more nuanced when it comes to driving. The cars feel as heavy as they are, and it is more realistic because of it. I played the forza 4 demo and forza 5 demo a lot and it's just a little bit off when it comes to the weight transfer and chassis movement. I've driven quite a few exotics because of my job and the Audi R8 drives exactly in GT6 like it does in real life. It's the same for the F430 and aventador. When PD gets it right there is no one better. The only problem is that only about 10% of the cars are right.

Forza vs. GT is like ford Ford vs. Chevy, It won't be solved. Both are great games.

 

[Speedster911]

As far as weight transfer being not properly conveyed is concerned, I'd highly recommend you turn off cam motion effects and stick to normal steering on controller, and SIM on a wheel. Don't ask me why, I do not care to explain mate!

Just give it a go and get back to us.

 

[HAL20XX]

I get almost no sense of weight in GT, but I do in Forza. Again, this has less to do with which one does it "right" and more to do with which one you're used to.

 

[Speedster911]

I will squarely base this on real-world high speed driving:

Both have certain hits and misses. Forza has less misses and more hits. Therefore, IMO Forza gets it closer to real life.

 

[King1982]

^^^^ Based on what? While Polyphony has made some questionable choices with the series, several of those issues are limited by the hardware. Once on the PS4, we should see a noticeable improvement. The biggest challenge they have facing them is outdated assets and the potential loss of hundreds and hundreds of vehicles and several tracks.

Common sense..

 

[HAL20XX]

Common sense..

So in other words, you've based it on nothing.

I really like the Forza series, but I don't ignorantly put it on a pedestal.

 

[Crispy]

^^^^ Based on what? While Polyphony has made some questionable choices with the series, several of those issues are limited by the hardware. Once on the PS4, we should see a noticeable improvement. The biggest challenge they have facing them is outdated assets and the potential loss of hundreds and hundreds of vehicles and several tracks.

Honestly PD really isn't in competition for best Sim anymore. PD have shown that they aren't prepared for an older console, how can they be prepared for a newer console? After all they not only failed to fix game-breaking bugs between GT5 and GT6, but they actually removed a huge chunk of promised content in the game. All while increasing graphics for a system that couldn't handle the decreased visuals. If they show that large lack of planning for a previous-gen console, what is next/current-gen going to look like?

 

[Speedster911]

Sums it up well.

 

[HAL20XX]

I'm by no means giving PD a free pass. I've almost given up on the series, to be honest. However, I will acknowledge that the Cell processor in the PS3 was notoriously difficult to optimize. I'm sure PD went in seeing the specs of the system and optimized towards that. Then they found how difficult it was to utilize the system to its fullest.

 

[Speedster911]

Hmm, yeah you got a point. That's no excuse though for not incorporating better engine and race effects, including a better physics engine. Graphic limitations I can understand. But PD hasn't innovated by any noticeable measures in the sound and physics department.

Such a waste though. A game that started out so promising took this direction, or had to. Whichever's true.

 

[Imari]

I'm by no means giving PD a free pass. I've almost given up on the series, to be honest. However, I will acknowledge that the Cell processor in the PS3 was notoriously difficult to optimize. I'm sure PD went in seeing the specs of the system and optimized towards that. Then they found how difficult it was to utilize the system to its fullest.

A lot of the major problems with GT6 (and GT5 for that matter) are not hardware based though.

Sure, it has unsteady frame rates and flickery shadows, and those sorts of things can be solved with more power. But the weird design choices can't necessarily be.

Rubberbanding AI isn't a hardware constraint, it's a design choice.
Likewise a physics system where camber and tyre pressures are non-functional.
Likewise a career mode consisting of dozens of short races where you have a rolling start from the back.
Likewise an online system that is bare bones at best, not including some of the better features found in GT5/GT5P.
Likewise the decision to include hundreds of low quality last gen assets.
Likewise the decision to remove features found in GT5, replacing them with nothing.

There's lots of things where I just think "and this makes the game better how?" Nothing to do with the power of the hardware, just odd decisions by Polyphony to limit the choices of the player, mostly for reasons that are totally non-obvious.

I maintain that GT6 has all the tools that it needs to be the best racing game ever, if only those tools were presented to the player correctly. For just about every problem I've found with GT6, I have been able to think of a solution that doesn't require more hardware power. Maybe there's some reason why those solutions wouldn't work, but still.

 

[King1982]

So in other words, you've based it on nothing.

I really like the Forza series, but I don't ignorantly put it on a pedestal.

I dont. I've read a lot about the new racing games that are gonna come out in the near future and they wont even come close to what T10 brings to the table.

 

[mister dog]

A lot of the major problems with GT6 (and GT5 for that matter) are not hardware based though.

Sure, it has unsteady frame rates and flickery shadows, and those sorts of things can be solved with more power. But the weird design choices can't necessarily be.

Rubberbanding AI isn't a hardware constraint, it's a design choice.
Likewise a physics system where camber and tyre pressures are non-functional.
Likewise a career mode consisting of dozens of short races where you have a rolling start from the back.
Likewise an online system that is bare bones at best, not including some of the better features found in GT5/GT5P.
Likewise the decision to include hundreds of low quality last gen assets.
Likewise the decision to remove features found in GT5, replacing them with nothing.

There's lots of things where I just think "and this makes the game better how?" Nothing to do with the power of the hardware, just odd decisions by Polyphony to limit the choices of the player, mostly for reasons that are totally non-obvious.

I maintain that GT6 has all the tools that it needs to be the best racing game ever, if only those tools were presented to the player correctly. For just about every problem I've found with GT6, I have been able to think of a solution that doesn't require more hardware power. Maybe there's some reason why those solutions wouldn't work, but still.

Exactly; on PD's part it's a combination between stupid design choices, and not being able to redirect some of the processing power of the console you work with to offer a more complete experience.

They are just incompetent there is no denying the fact. Other developers manage to do better with much less financial means than them, so there is no excuse for what they are putting on the shelves nowadays.

 

[Speedster911]

I dont. I've read a lot about the new racing games that are gonna come out in the near future and they wont even come close to what T10 brings to the table.

^^ Actually, this is a reality as we speak. None of the driving games have quite brought us what "T10 has brought to the table". Considering the best 'overall package' there is out there ATM.

Exactly; on PD's part it's a combination between stupid design choices, and not being able to redirect some of the processing power of the console you work with to offer a more complete experience.

They are just incompetent there is no denying the fact. Other developers manage to do better with much less financial means than them, so there is no excuse for what they are putting on the shelves nowadays.

I sayyy ol'chap! Bravo! Now I wonder how the good gentlemen at T10 would go about accomplishing the task if they had PD's assets and had to make something of it on the PS3. *Colin Firth accent*

*Takes a sip from English breakfast tea with pinkie raised high in the air*

 

[mister dog]

^^ Actually, this is a reality as we speak. None of the driving games have quite brought us what "T10 has brought to the table". Considering the best 'overall package' there is out there ATM.

PCARS will give them a run for their money though, T10 will always have the advantage of being able to license all those exotics and doing a fantastic job in replicating them, so for someone that loves car collecting it's a wet dream, but PCARS looks like it will be "the racer's" wet dream, and will feature day/night and weather which the FM series still has to catch up with.

For me Xbone is out though, i'm NOT buying a new wheel just for one console. Otherwise i would have picked one up for FM as i like the series a lot...

 

[Speedster911]

Yeah, that sounds about right. PCARS is shaping up to be a very competitive "racer's wet dream".

If and when I do get a chance to get a next-gen console, I think this time around I'll put my money on a PS4, which is undeniably more powerful. I've a feeling console ports are going to be better on it too.

Something's just holding me back though. Don't know why - just don't want to get a Microsoft console this time. For one thing, I was expecting the hardware to be a lot more powerful than it is.

Will you be playing PCARS on the PC then?

P.S: car collecting with day/night, weather AND rallying, will be the ultimate car collecting wet dream! Don't know if they'll pull it off by FM6 though.

 

[King1982]

PCARS will give them a run for their money though, T10 will always have the advantage of being able to license all those exotics and doing a fantastic job in replicating them, so for someone that loves car collecting it's a wet dream, but PCARS looks like it will be "the racer's" wet dream, and will feature day/night and weather which the FM series still has to catch up with.

So did GT5 and GT6 after all those great bullshot trailers we saw. Remember the hype for GT5?

I dont know if you've seen the gameplay footage and reviews but even with night and weather gthe simulation is still lacking. From what i've seen so far it looks like a mix between Grid and NFS HP.

 

[Brend]

I dont. I've read a lot about the new racing games that are gonna come out in the near future and they wont even come close to what T10 brings to the table.

Oh, so you know information about GT7 and how it's going to be? Because unless I'm misunderstanding, you are saying that F6 is automatically gonna be better than any other racing game because 'opinion lol'.

 

[mister dog]

So did GT5 and GT6 after all those great bullshot trailers we saw. Remember the hype for GT5?

I dont know if you've seen the gameplay footage and reviews but even with night and weather gthe simulation is still lacking. From what i've seen so far it looks like a mix between Grid and NFS HP.

Before GT5 everyone was hyped, as PD still didn't disappoint as they do nowadays.
Been following PCARS for a while now, and seeing the amount of feedback they receive from the crowd playing it and professional racing drivers they invite, i'm quite sure it's physics will be on par with it's astonishing graphics 👍

 

[UKMikey]

Oh, so you know information about GT7 and how it's going to be? Because unless I'm misunderstanding, you are saying that F6 is automatically gonna be better than any other racing game because 'opinion lol'.

To be fair he did originally say in the next two years. I hope GT7 will be here by 2016 and doesn't run into the kind of delays that have beset Evolution's DriveClub.

That said I'm excited about what PCars may bring to the table.