Forza Motorsport 3

[TBR 427]

TBR 427: Well yes, I can't disagree with you. But still, I will rather have not very accurate laptime, but accurate car behaviour, than accurate lap time, but not accurate car behaviour in its core.

HOVEWER . Ofcourse it will be best if we get accurate car behaviour and proper lap times.



Well. Compared to real life. Live for speed, Enthusia and Forza 2/3 are the only games representing drifting feel properly. It's still not the same, but the feel is there. Right behind is GT5P, which minus is the overdid snapyness and bugs that are mostly felt on lower speeds. But it's still a very big improvement over gt4.

Where do you get your idea of rfactor drifting being realistic? I have spend 2007 and beginning of 2008 filming many drifting events. Drifted on 3-4 drift practices with e34 535 in 2007, drove 2 small laps in proffesional s14a, and drifted 2008/2009 season in e30 325i, competing in three 2-day drift competitions and few single day practices. After all this driving, I can't see rfactor physics over limit being realistic. I'm using g25 on pc with 900 degrees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS5RlPHitYU more vids on my channel.

Trying to drift in GT5P I found the snappy-ness of the steering isn't the physics per se, rather the steering. Those fronts snap back uncomfortably quick.

It is possible to drive around this, by being good with a wheel, or having epic thumb control if you're using the standard PS3 controller. Watching a lot of videos of it online, and you can see sub-par throttle control in 99% of 'snap-back' crashes/spins/failures.

Beyond that, think about what you consider to be on, or over the limit. I doubt those cars you drifted were bone-stock in EVERY aspect. And remember while drifting, you are still effectively within the limit. If you are over the limit, you have lost control of the car (which isn't fun when drifting).

As such, re-evaluate the limits in RFactor. Check ALL variables. Something's not matching up somewhere.

Lest you forget, in 1957, F1 car look like this

It's not the same as today's racers. And the top speed was 180mph, quite a bit slower than what it is now. Talk to anyone who has driven on the "Ring, for most part (especially the faster section) you try and avoid getting you car tires onto the curb, let alone the grass beside it.

Exactly. Ye Olde ****house tyres, minuscule contact patch for starters. Throw in 1950s body rigidity and suspension geometry (yes these are F1 cars, but they're still from the '50s and that's their biggest problem), as well as all kinds of wayward harmonics and aerodynamics that can be described as anything BUT helpful, and you've got probably the worst-case-scenario when you haven't got all 4 on the tarmac.

Yes, for the most part, keeping 4 wheels on the black stuff is a good idea (that's why the whole lap I posted was fast). But it was never about racing 'for the most part'. It was about overtaking.

And if one of the most dangerous cars from the 1950s can do it, then there is no excuse why something else from this decade shouldn't be able to do it.

 

[McLaren]

McLaren: Thanks for the info. Sounds really good and I can't wait to play it. Regarding my questions; how much postage do I owe you?

Haha. The funny thing is all the Xbox's were kept in a white, wooden box in the center of all 4 displays with the back of the racing seats facing said box. So, somewhere behind one of the seats, was the door that held the "key" to happiness.

 

[FyreandIce]

The LOD is much better in the final game. I did not, however, get a chance to check out the replays.


The one thing I really did notice about the full game is that the difficulty of the cars is finally realistic in that race cars take much more concentration to drive fast than say, a BMW M3. Going from a E92 to a F1 GTR to a Diablo GTR, you'll quite clearly see which will take a lot of skill to drive at the limits.

One thing that I've also enjoyed is that lift off oversteer is very well modeled. And again, with the way some cars are more difficult to drive comes to the task of keeping them under control. The M3's easy, the McLaren takes some quick reflexes.

However, with oversteer comes the annoying "barrier", in that every time the car got a little sideways, it was still easy to regain control unless you absolutely pushed it. That was my only main complaint.

Racing on Laguna, Le Mans, & Sebring, I can also say the tracks are very pretty. Laguna is no longer at dusk, and looks a lot better. Sebring also feels more vibrant than before.

And as for the AI, it has gotten ballsy since the demo. I played on custom settings with everything off except ABS (the Diablo I left TCS on). In my Diablo race, I was pitted against a Porsche GT3 race car, HKS Evo, and the Audi RS6 Touring car from FM2, as my main opposition.

During the 2nd lap right before the corkscrew, I could see the Evo & the Porsche battling, bumping into each other. Coming down the turn, the Porsche bumps the Evo off the turn, which lead to it coming back on the road right in front of me...sideways. Unable to brake completely, I did clip him, and he bumped back into the Porsche. During this time, the RS6 had avoided the Evo & regained speed. And on the last straight to the finish line, I caught the Evo coming up fast, and while trying to pressure him, I didn't see that the RS6 was already next to me, leaving me behind to finish 2nd. But no, the Evo caught my attempt, and cut back over to the other side, leaving me in between both cars finish 3rd.

The whole game, though, is just wow. It's going to be quite an amazing game with gorgeous sounds, well-made interiors (though the F1 GTR seemed to not have its display on), and very, very smart AI who put up a great challenge.

Thanks for all that.

 

[otago]

Yeah! That'll teach Turn 10 to give out free content!

This is not free content. 10 the most interesting cars in the whole game were cut off the game because Turn10 wants prevent people from buying used games. If your X360 is not plugged to internet - you will never see them. If you X360 will die, you won't be able download cars again.

Plus 5 very good cars in LCE, for extra 20$.

I can't see why Turn10 is so different from other devs, which don't cut levels and everything else off the game just because they want extra money or rip off people buying used games.

So when I pay 80$ for game, I want to see everything included in box, not Forza 2 car list and you can download everything else for free! (once).

DLC is fine, but there is no such thing as DLC in the day of release.

 

[McLaren]

Cat & Mouse.
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/cat-and-forza-motorsport/57369

 

[aspect8]

If your X360 is not plugged to internet - you will never see them. If you X360 will die, you won't be able download cars again.

Have you even used xbox live before? You need temporary access to internet of some form with a free silver account to download the cars. Once you've done this they are yours, you can disconnect and still use them. How many 360 owners realistically wouldn't be able to do that? And once you've bought something, or redeemed a code, you can re-download that content whenever you want. You can do this on any console, as long as the profile that originally purchased it is logged in.

Also, this is clearly a measure aimed at getting people to buy the game new, rather than used. I don't mind when devs do this. When you buy a used game, you save what... $10? $20? Guess why... because no part of the cost goes back to the devs. The game shop creams the lot. Why wouldn't a company want to encourage buyers to buy new? It gives them more sales figures, more income. And if they do that by offering additional FREE content, all the better!

Plus 5 very good cars in LCE, for extra 20$.

I can't see why Turn10 is so different from other devs, which don't cut levels and everything else off the game just because they want extra money or rip off people buying used games.

This is a value proposition, it's a decision you make based on what you get vs what you pay. You do this every time you make a purchasing decision. For me, the extra cars, VIP membership, USB drive, keyring, and better box are worth the $20 price hike. For you it's obviously not. In that case, you still get the 400 cars and 100 tracks it says on the back of the standard retail box. The funny thing is if they'd never shown you this content you'd never know what you were missing.

By the way. I live in Australia. Our new release games typically start at $100 and go from there. I'd love to be able to get a LE of a game for $80. Count yourself lucky.

 

[otago]

Have you even used xbox live before? You need temporary access to internet of some form with a free silver account to download the cars.

I had gold membership for 13 month, but I haven't played anything online except GRAW for a week, so I didn't buy gold again. Then I used internet only to download demos, but MS cut this off for silver members so internet became completely useless for me.

Last time I moved I didn't even bother with internet at all because even with game magazines I get demos faster than with XBL.

So now Turn10 tells me that I should plug internet for 100$ per month just because they don't want people buy used games and want extra money for LCE. Why the hell do I care what they want and what they don't?

Without this 15 cars Forza 3 car selection is around same as Forza 2 with DLC. Plus SUV and Dodge RAM which don't make too much sense in racing game anyway

 

[kamkor]

Beyond that, think about what you consider to be on, or over the limit. I doubt those cars you drifted were bone-stock in EVERY aspect. And remember while drifting, you are still effectively within the limit. If you are over the limit, you have lost control of the car (which isn't fun when drifting).

As such, re-evaluate the limits in RFactor. Check ALL variables. Something's not matching up somewhere.

E34 535 was just stripped car with weitec suspension on 16" wheels, locked diff, maybe different engine chip. S14a was proffesional car, but I've only done 2 short laps in it, e30 325i you can see on the vid, stock engine without cat, poliurethane bushings, cheap stiffened suspension, stripped interior, locked diff, **** steering (1440 degrees lock to lock "FTW"). And about losing control - it's not like that. When you spin out, lose control - you are still in control.

But it doesn't really matter that much. It's about the overall model and reactions needed to drift, and the feel. Somehow, I can very easily adapt to simulators like lfs, enthusia, forza. But with rfactor, I have to readjust my driving to match in-game physics engine, same for gt5p, but with gt5p being just much better than rfactor. So just how come that in isi engine games I can't adapt to it with more or less real life reactions, but in other sims I've listed I can? I can't help the fact that cars in rfactor do not react the way they should to me. Something about the tire model is just wrong. Ofcourse I speak about cars on street tires, not slicks. And it's not that I can't handle rfactor, after some practices I am doing it, but I just have to react very noticably in a different way often. It's a case of - "how many "WTF" during drifting I get".

As far as cars I've tried - standard rfactor cars (with upgrades too, so not bare-stock), drift mods (official demo one and oversteer com au) and some other non related to drifting mods. I've heard I should give Niels cars a try, but I feel I've had enough with rfactor.

You can try to keep convicing me on this matter TBR 427, but I feel it is a dead-end-road and we will just have to disagree, move on, and play what each of us likes the most.

 

[aspect8]

So now Turn10 tells me that I should plug internet for 100$ per month just because they don't want people buy used games and want extra money for LCE. Why the hell do I care what they want and what they don't?[

Otago, given the amount of time you spend arguing on this internet forum, I suspect you do have a pretty reliable and easy way to access the internet. I'm sure you could get the car pack with even a slight bit of effort.

Without this 15 cars Forza 3 car selection is around same as Forza 2 with DLC. Plus SUV and Dodge RAM which don't make too much sense in racing game anyway

Car selection has grown more than that, and you know it. There are dozens of new cars, many many new tracks, and many new features. Most cars in the pitpasses are new cars.

Euro Compacts: 12 new cars.
VIP Style: 12 new cars.
JDM Power: 8 new road cars, 2 new race cars.
American Muscle: 5 more cars.

Add to that Falcon and Commodore V8 Supercars. Dodge, Chevy and Ford stock cars. Aston DBS and DBR9. The Veyron and Reventon. There are more, I couldn't be bothered listing them. There are a lot of new cars.

 

[otago]

Otago, given the amount of time you spend arguing on this internet forum, I suspect you do have a pretty reliable and easy way to access the internet.

Ever heard about work? It's a place where you seat arguing on internet forums and somebody pay a lot of money to you for doing this

 

[McLaren]

I'm sure your supervisors would love to know that.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Ever heard about work? It's a place where you seat arguing on internet forums and somebody pay a lot of money to you for doing this

Ah, so you work for Microsoft?

 

[otago]

Ah, so you work for Microsoft?

Everybody knows Microsoft provides gold XBL membership and virgins for every employee free of charge.

Apparently I don't have gold XBL membership, so I don't work for Microsoft

 

[Eric.]

So, Otago, what would keep you from getting these cars? Piracy? Buying used (on a new game, like aspect8 said, you'll save no more than $20). Surely you don't just think its some bad marketing ploy. I doubt developers even consider sales of used games to impact their own profits.

Edit: Nevermind. No internet. Gotcha. Not Turn10s fault.

 

[LaBounti]

Wow. No ZR-1 for the non hardcore fans........ Interesting that the competition gives you the ZR-1 and F458 for free and where is the GTR?...... Nice car list but I'm against not just including these cars. My interest fell just a little.. No longer a day one purchase for me.

Also the roll over looks like the cars are being cradled by the hands of god.

 

[Eric.]

Wow. No ZR-1 for the non hardcore fans........ Interesting that the competition gives you the ZR-1 and F458 for free and where is the GTR?...... Nice car list but I'm against not just including these cars. My interest fell just a little.. No longer a day one purchase for me.

Also the roll over looks like the cars are being cradled by the hands of god.

Uh, ZR-1 is part of the collectors edition I think. And there's obviously some licensing issue with getting the GT-R. You think they'd leave one of the most popular cars out?

 

[Nigo]

Well. Compared to real life. Live for speed, Enthusia and Forza 2/3 are the only games representing drifting feel properly. It's still not the same, but the feel is there. Right behind is GT5P, which minus is the overdid snapyness and bugs that are mostly felt on lower speeds. But it's still a very big improvement over gt4

you're talking, but not arguing. Overall, it's easy to drift with these games - because they're not snappy, it's hard to spin, and you don't need to be very precise in your actions - while it's harder on rFactor. They might be great games/sims, don't get me wrong, but drifting in them is not challenging like it should be, somehow. If you drifted IRL, I really can't understand your point of view. Tire model is wrong ? you mean more than beeing able the drift Catherams on any corner ?
About rFactor, I'm talking about the M3 E46, Toyota Supra, Corvette C6, something close to your E34. Standard cars are racing cars and the hard-core drift mod is more like D1 cars (slick tires, ultra-boosted engines...). Try with the (fat) Supra and we'll discuss that

locked diff

you don't mean soldered, right ? 'cause that changes just everything

 

[Nigo]

McLaren > you tried the final version ? have you tried with the gamepad ? does it feel different from the demo ?

 

[McLaren]

Wow. No ZR-1 for the non hardcore fans........ Interesting that the competition gives you the ZR-1 and F458 for free and where is the GTR?...... Nice car list but I'm against not just including these cars. My interest fell just a little.. No longer a day one purchase for me.

Also the roll over looks like the cars are being cradled by the hands of god.

Give it time and they'll probably release the LCE cars later on for DLC.

McLaren > you tried the final version ? have you tried with the gamepad ? does it feel different from the demo ?

I was given that standard ol' Xbox 360 wheel from Microsoft. Not the greatest of wheels, but the game does feel much better with it none the less than with a pad.

I would have to say though, in general, yes. Out of the cars I drove, each did showcase some diversity in the physics. The liftoff oversteer in the Porsche GT3 is also better than what happens in the demo.

 

[phil-t]

This is not free content. 10 the most interesting cars in the whole game were cut off the game because Turn10 wants prevent people from buying used games. If your X360 is not plugged to internet - you will never see them. If you X360 will die, you won't be able download cars again.

Plus 5 very good cars in LCE, for extra 20$.

I can't see why Turn10 is so different from other devs, which don't cut levels and everything else off the game just because they want extra money or rip off people buying used games.

So when I pay 80$ for game, I want to see everything included in box, not Forza 2 car list and you can download everything else for free! (once).

DLC is fine, but there is no such thing as DLC in the day of release.

I don't think it's remotely as bad as you say

The internet connection - I understand the sentiment, but the reality is the game is very much cutdown in lots and lots of way if you don't have the internet, updates, storefront, auction house, multiplayer, photo upload, leadboards etc, etc, will all be missing, making a few cars seem almost insignificant next to all that.

I do agree that providing the 10 launch cars via redeemable code isn't ideal, and certainly a move to prevent something, but they may well make them 'payed download' DLC at a later date, since more cars will no doubt be released this way for all to download.. They've already said they are looking at allowing the 'VIP' cars to be attained later on after release, if they where hell bent on the quashing of second hand, they certainly wouldn't do that, as it actually cuts a revenue stream.

I don't think it'll drastically affect the second hand market, any real car nut would buy the original to get 'everything', but more casual people aren't going to be bothered if a car that's older then them isn't included, especially since cars like the Veyron and Reventon are..

I agree that slowly the developers are trying to give more incentives for buying new (or dis-incentives for buying second hand), but at the end of the day, if they do it right, and allow access to all that is missing via payed DLC it should work out fine on both sides.

 

[Nigo]

I just hope the DLC will not have a time limit. I won't be surprised if it's reserved for Gold members; in fact I'm sure it will

I'm sorry but in any way, FM3 looks like a Troy trojan for Microsoft Gold memberships and overpriced accessories (HD)... I love my XBox, but I hate THAT; makes me thinking about hacking it

 

[KSaiyu]

I'm not being naive, I'm looking at what we know. Turn 10 could have easily shaved off these cars for whatever purpose and then offered them as an 800MS point download a couple weeks after the games release claiming them to be "new content". They didn't though and are offering it free to people who purchase the game....which surprises me, since it goes against the norm.

Unfortunately it's becoming more and more the norm. Gears of War 2 gave the flashback map to new copy buyers and Madden 10 gave the Online Franchise. Whether you think this is acceptable depends on your viewpoint on the used-game market. Personally I think with rewarding LCE buyers (I will be one though) with cars as well they might be pushing their luck just a bit.

It's a long way off from the evil that is Activision though.

 

[kamkor]

you're talking, but not arguing. Overall, it's easy to drift with these games - because they're not snappy, it's hard to spin, and you don't need to be very precise in your actions - while it's harder on rFactor. They might be great games/sims, don't get me wrong, but drifting in them is not challenging like it should be, somehow. If you drifted IRL, I really can't understand your point of view. Tire model is wrong ? you mean more than beeing able the drift Catherams on any corner ?
About rFactor, I'm talking about the M3 E46, Toyota Supra, Corvette C6, something close to your E34. Standard cars are racing cars and the hard-core drift mod is more like D1 cars (slick tires, ultra-boosted engines...). Try with the (fat) Supra and we'll discuss that

Again, where do you get the idea that it's very snappy and hard to control when you drift cars in real life? Are you a drifter in real life to give such strong assumptions? What cars did you drift and how much time have you spend drifting on track? Or how much tires have you wasted so far? Live for speed is even harder than real life to control. To me it's not quite too hard (just needs different timing mostly + **** soap hot tire), but real life drifters not used to pc sims have hard time even in live for speed. And there is a huge difference when you drift with say - 200 to 540 degrees, and 720 to 900 degrees.

I will take those cars for a spin in rfactor later this weekend. If you don't mind, please provide me with links so that I don't end up with **** version if there are duplicates.

you don't mean soldered, right ? 'cause that changes just everything

Yes, soldered/welded. But first I've had original 25% in e30. It didn't become easier nor harder to drive, just better and much more fun. Ofcourse a proper lsd 50-70% is better, but much more expensive. edit: (wasn't mine e34, was a rented drift practice car). I also assume you've had great deal of experience with open diff, some lsd and welded.

 

[KSaiyu]

Reviews:

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/103/1032675p1.html
http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/103/1033110p1.html
http://reviews.teamxbox.com/xbox-360/1778/Forza-Motorsport-3/p1/

 

[kamkor]

some videos from neogaf:

http://www.youtube.com/user/HoTHiTR
http://www.gamersyde.com/news_forza_3_point_to_point_races-8647_en.html

And interview with Dan with new gameplay vids:
http://www.gamerglotze.de/ViewMovie?flv_id=2584

 

[Nigo]

your condescending tone doesn't give you more credit
I admit I'm not a drifter IRL, that's why I said I was suprised with your experience; I take it into account, but still think there is something wrong in LFS

anyway, here are your links, have fun :
http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=Toyota Supra MKIV
http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=BMW M3 E46 Street Racing
http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=Chevrolet Corvette C6

 

[Bogie 19th]

Metracritic is at 94 for Forza 3. Dang, this game is doing VERY well. Better than I first anticipated.

 

[Vincent Viceroy]

Excellent reviews scores. Was it even in doubt? Nah. Can't wait.

 

[Nigo]

I've always felt that you couldn't properly drive a car in a racing game with the assists off if you didn't have a racing wheel. While Forza 3 controls brilliantly with a wheel, I can assure you that you can play a hundred hours with just a controller and have no issues. Turn 10 has finally mastered the subtleties of the controller, allowing for better responsiveness

I sooo wish they're right. I got bored of the demo in 5 min because of this very reason

 

[aspect8]

IGN gives Forza 3 9.4. Twice. Cue shrill claims of bias. Shock horror, Forza is a good game.