Forza Motorsport 7: Demo Discussion

[HAL20XX]

Which track were you on?

MIS in Michigan. Fortunately the track wasn't just the oval that IndyCar and NASCAR drive on - it also included the infield track. I got to feel the car through the corners but also push it well beyond 165mph+ on the high speed banks!

 

[TheCrazySwede]

Please tell me you are referring to playing with a game pad....?

From my experience with a wheel Project Cars physics beats out FM7 in every conceivable way.

I was part of the development of the original pCars from the very start. Without going into too much detail, I am by no means a fan of how the game handles the loss of grip. I distinctly remember Ben "Stig" Collins having just as much trouble driving the cars as I did. I believe he was even mocked (jokingly, of course) for crashing so much. I had a very similar experience. The Alpha of the game drove much better, but as the Alpha turned to Beta and the Beta turned into the final release, I became less and less of a fan of what was going on. I projected the reason behind my quarrels with the dev team on their WMD forums, criticizing the way the game simulated car control and was booted out of the development process because of it.

pCars with a game pad? I'm a race car driver, not a sorcerer
If you're playing pCars with a pad, you're much braver than me!

@TheCrazySwede, agree fully regarding simulation steering with a gamepad - MUCH too hard to catch the car, at least for the Porsche for sure. But, I also don't think it's well suited for a wheel, normal steering is closer to reality. Forza is much harder than a real sim (rF2, iRacing, ....) for many of the reason's you stated above, no use in making it harder than it needs to be. Maybe simulation steering would work best for drifting. My $.02

Aye, the only time I used sim steering was with FM4. Made the mid-engined cars more fun to drive!
Normal steering is the way to go 👍

MIS in Michigan. Fortunately the track wasn't just the oval that IndyCar and NASCAR drive on - it also included the infield track. I got to feel the car through the corners but also push it well beyond 165mph+ on the high speed banks!

That's an awesome experience! Did you get to test the brakes out at all? The braking performance on the GT3 is spine bending!

 

[ClydeYellow]

Alright, finally sat down and got some extended play time with the Forza demo. For the sake of clarity I'll put down my opinions and observations in a bullet point list:

• for starters, the demo itself is a lazy effort compared to the far more polished appetizer we got in the days leading up to the release of FM6 and FH3; as a matter of fact, the lack of eve a basic option to restart the race (leave alone advanced features such as leaderboards, Rival events and a Photomode) would lead me to believe it is not "just like the E3 demo", but the actual E3 demo lifted straight from the show floor and given a quick patch job so that it shows a "buy Forza now" splash screen at the end and perhaps does a slightly better job at supporting PC configs and devices different than the ones used in their rigs. As such, bugs that have shown up in the demo may not be an issue in the finished product;
• the track/car combos on offer are likely to mislead many people in their judgement of Forza's handling model. We're given the reins of the 700hp 911 GT2 on a track that consists of a twisty and relatively narrow mountain road. I thought the car had a tendency to understeer, too - and while the claim undoubtedly has merit, I remembered I had the same feeling about the Ford GT in the FM6 demo and decided to pay attention to the speedo: I quickly noticed the obscene speeds I was trying to carry through corners - it's quite easy to reach the first corner at speeds well over 250 kph, and carry a speed of 120 kph through the one in front of the Mercure. Likewise, the Actros makes you feel like you're going faster than the speed of sound all the time, but that's only because you're sitting so tall - in reality, my exit speed on the Mugello's first corner's been consistently around 80 kph. The Nurburgring experience with the NISMO GT-R is probably the most balanced of the trio, and so far it seems to also be the one people are enjoying the most - which's hardly a coincidence;
• the graphics are, in most aspects, a dramatic improvement over the looks of FM6. The steady march towards a realistic lightning model started there has continued incessant, the new skybox makes for some beautiful and frightening scenarios, and the smoke and dirt lifted by the vehicles' tires never looked so realistic in any game. On the only previously-seen track of the trio, the level by which the textures for the asphalt and many environment materials has been enhanced is quite evident; same seems to go for interior materials, although the car which shows the highest level of complexity is the brand-new 911 GT2, so I'll pass judgment on that only when I'll have my hands on the full game. And this is on a 1080p non-HDR monitor... Can't wait to play this sucker on the Xbox One X.
• the audio... Oh boi. The samples are improved, yes - the GT-R now sounds downright fierce - but the general soundscape of the game is lightyears ahead of the last Forza games; the sound of the engine reverberates in vehicles featuring no sound deadening, and you can even hear the pebbles hitting the wheel wells. They seem to also have remembered that yeah, some racecars backfire a lot - the drum solo that the Nissan emits on every corner entry is faithfully replicated this time around. This game begs to be played in cockpit view, and once there the immersion is helped even further by the improved driver position and, of all things, by the much-criticized "shaky" dynamic camera.

 

[Pallie]

I was part of the development of the original pCars from the very start. Without going into too much detail, I am by no means a fan of how the game handles the loss of grip.

The fact that you can be cruising fine and dandy one second and skidding into a wall without warning was the thing that absolutely ruined PC's for me. The whole handling model felt coarse and digital, instead of fluid and organic. The only racer that made me rage quit while friggin' hot lapping.

 

[Pallie]

The Porsche handles like a RR car driven at the limit should do. However, it looks like there is a problem for wheel users. Nothing wrong with the car on a pad and your comment about the racing truck handling better is a bit daft

Also, anyone thinking the handling is wrong. Go and try the 2012 GT2 RS in FM6 and you'll find it very similar. Are we saying all the porches in that game are broken as well now?

I can only vouch for how it felt on my wheel, since I don't play racers with a pad. But on my rig, it felt like trying to ride a fat chick down on all fours wearing rollerskates across an oily patch of ice. And maybe it's the game that's daft and not the driver. After all, it likes to pause during the truck race on it's own for no apparent reason lol.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

the demo itself is a lazy effort compared to the far more polished appetizer we got in the days leading up to the release of FM6 and FH3

I explained the primary purpose of the demo in my earlier post if you're interested

The whole handling model felt coarse and digital, instead of fluid and organic.

Careful, you might get banned from ever playing pCars again!
Jokes aside, I had much to say about how cars handled in pCars. Whenever someone praises how "realistic" the game is, it honestly baffles me how they can think that. Cars with an immense amount of grip in real life feel like Mario Kart after driving over a banana peel.

A very common misconception about race cars is that they are difficult to drive. Why engineers would spend so much of their time making a car more difficult to drive is beyond anyone. When competing, you want every possible odd in your favor, including the way the car behaves. A lot of time during the testing process actually involves getting the car to work with you rather than against you. The cars in pCars do the latter. It's like trying to handle a fish out of water.

 

[zr1chris]

I was part of the development of the original pCars from the very start. Without going into too much detail, I am by no means a fan of how the game handles the loss of grip. I distinctly remember Ben "Stig" Collins having just as much trouble driving the cars as I did. I believe he was even mocked (jokingly, of course) for crashing so much. I had a very similar experience. The Alpha of the game drove much better, but as the Alpha turned to Beta and the Beta turned into the final release, I became less and less of a fan of what was going on. I projected the reason behind my quarrels with the dev team on their WMD forums, criticizing the way the game simulated car control and was booted out of the development process because of it.

Have you not played it since leaving the development team or any time recently for that matter? Maybe they have patched in some things in terms of physics?

I just picked this game up 3-4 weeks ago since I had just bought my first true rig and was eager to dust off the old Fanatec PWTS and get back to sim racing. From what I had heard and read. Assetto Corsa followed by PCars were the 2 best Sims on consoles in terms of physics. I chose PCars since it had the better career mode and since PCars 2 was just over the horizon. I wanted to see if I liked it so I could decide on getting PCars 2. Put it this way, I knew I wanted PCars 2 after 1 lap with the GT3 McLaren at Dubai (my first combo I tried).

I love the physics. I am able to drive the car hard and was instantly able to find hot lapping fun as I cut down my time further and further.

FM7 demo is a total crap shoot for me. It's hard to fix my lap if I can't figure out where I'm going wrong. It's too unpredictable. PCars tells me in the physics and force feedback exactly where I'm going wrong, giving me the info I need to run faster on a particular section or corner.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

Have you not played it since leaving the development team or any time recently for that matter? Maybe they have patched in some things in terms of physics?

I just picked this game up 3-4 weeks ago since I had just bought my first true rig and was eager to dust off the old Fanatec PWTS and get back to sim racing. From what I had heard and read. Assetto Corsa followed by PCars were the 2 best Sims on consoles in terms of physics. I chose PCars since it had the better career mode and since PCars 2 was just over the horizon. I wanted to see if I liked it so I could decide on getting PCars 2. Put it this way, I knew I wanted PCars 2 after 1 lap with the GT3 McLaren at Dubai (my first combo I tried).

I love the physics. I am able to drive the car hard and was instantly able to find hot lapping fun as I cut down my time further and further.

FM7 demo is a total crap shoot for me. It's hard to fix my lap if I can't figure out where I'm going wrong. It's too unpredictable. PCars tells me in the physics and force feedback exactly where I'm going wrong, giving me the info I need to run faster on a particular section or corner.

It was a while ago that I played pCars, but I definitely played it within the last year a few times.

I'm glad to hear that you had fun and totally enjoyed your experience playing pCars. That's what all this is for - Forza, Gran Turismo, pCars; they're all just games and they're meant to be fun! People lose track of that all too easily. If you enjoy it and had a blast playing it, then it hit its mark! My responsibility was to inform the team about the many aspects of racing using my experience as a driver. This turns pleasure into business and it surely does take a lot away from the "fun" of the experience. One of the many reasons why I love titles like Dirt Rally and Gran Turismo is because I know nothing about them going in. Suddenly I'm a gamer again.

Again, glad to hear you had a blast! I'm looking forward to seeing how pCars 2 does. From what I've heard from my sources, it has stepped up a lot from the original. Sorry to hear that you're having a hard time with FM7. Forza has a distinct handling model (you might have read my rant about it earlier) which makes it catered towards a specific audience. But what fun would it be if all games drove the same?

 

[ryandtw]

Looks like a well-known YouTuber (and former Microsoft employee) wasn't really happy about Forza 7 (at least for the demo, but who knows) - the graphics and sound were top-notch, but he wasn't happy about the control - and realism...

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

I can only vouch for how it felt on my wheel, since I don't play racers with a pad. But on my rig, it felt like trying to ride a fat chick down on all fours wearing rollerskates across an oily patch of ice. And maybe it's the game that's daft and not the driver. After all, it likes to pause during the truck race on it's own for no apparent reason lol.

Did I say the driver was daft?

 

[MockngBrd]

First mistake - using "simulation" steering, unless you enjoy the challenge but it surely doesn't "simulate" reality.

Wait... so you mean "simulation" steering is not really erm... "simulation"?

Will try it again tonight with normal steering, i shut it off out of frustration last night.

Have to agree with some views that driving in real life is actually easier than in some videogames. I attended a BMW M-car drift training in Germany and it's so much easier to go sliding in real life compared with GT. I guess feeling the weight shift in an actual car helped a lot. hahaha.

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

Wait... so you mean "simulation" steering is not really erm... "simulation"?

Will try it again tonight with normal steering, i shut it off out of frustration last night.

Have to agree with some views that driving in real life is actually easier than in some videogames. I attended a BMW M-car drift training in Germany and it's so much easier to go sliding in real life compared with GT. I guess feeling the weight shift in an actual car helped a lot. hahaha.

Simulation steering is junk, use normal. It's nigh on impossible to correct a slide using simulation as it over corrects most of the time and you wind up with a big tank slapper

 

[sebmugi]

good demo there is good and less good .. you have to make choices on one
the competing cars have nevertheless taken a drastic level 3D model :/

 

[TheCrazySwede]

As for the Porsche being hard to control...well, we can all agree to disagree!

 

[queleuleu]

I play with a controller and the Porsche is simply awful to drive, zero feeling compared to Forza 6.

 

[PzR Slim]

I play with a controller and the Porsche is simply awful to drive, zero feeling compared to Forza 6.

Can you explain what you mean by feel with a controller? I've seem many people use that phrase and I'm yet to work out how you can have any feel with a controller.

 

[PJTierney]

Wait... so you mean "simulation" steering is not really erm... "simulation"?

Forza games (and a few others, but Forza's implementation is the most obvious) use a speed-sensitive steering system when you play on a controller.

In short, full lock on your stick may equal 100% steering lock at low speed, but at high speed it gradually drops to about 15%.

When you enable "Simulation" steering, you are turning this system off, so that even if you drive at full speed you can get 100% steering lock. That's why quick counter-steering can make you spin out.

 

[Marqus]

I never understood T10's insistence to alter the way a car actually handles; most cars are not at all difficult to drive. And seeing how many people are having trouble with the GT2, their method of appealing to the masses hasn't worked very well.

 

[StoneyNUFC]

I've only used a controller for the demo so far, can't be arsed to get my wheel out and set it up etc lol. Plus seeing the mess they seemed to have made regarding the wheels on the PC at least, that's not going to change. To me the Porsche seems to have way too much body roll. The way it comes across on the screen at least, it makes you feel like your trying to throw a double decker bus round some of the corners and not a hardcore street legal track car.

The Truck and GT-R races were fun and handling felt nice and fun to use which is what i want from a more relaxed racing game. The graphics looked great, the new lighting is a great improvement over the older Forzas where everything seemed plastic. The audio is very nice aswell. AI is still dumb when side by side and they love to attach themselves to your car pushing you both off the track.

Will still wait for proper reviews when its fully released but certainly upped my interest back into the game.

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

I play with a controller and the Porsche is simply awful to drive, zero feeling compared to Forza 6.

The 2012 GT2 RS in FM6 (in fact almost all RR cars) exhibit very similar characteristics to the GT2 in the demo, lots of understeer and lift off oversteer.

Very interesting post from crazy swede a page or so back on why, worth a read.....

 

[Ak1504]

A very common misconception about race cars is that they are difficult to drive. Why engineers would spend so much of their time making a car more difficult to drive is beyond anyone. When competing, you want every possible odd in your favor, including the way the car behaves. A lot of time during the testing process actually involves getting the car to work with you rather than against you.

+1

You don´t win races or set good laptimes with a car that tries to kill the driver in every corner.

 

[queleuleu]

The 2012 GT2 RS in FM6 (in fact almost all RR cars) exhibit very similar characteristics to the GT2 in the demo, lots of understeer and lift off oversteer.

Very interesting post from crazy swede a page or so back on why, worth a read.....

Your opinion. I have no problem with the truck race and the Nissan GT-R. Oh and I'm sure that a gear shift doesn't move like that at 130 km/h in a GT2RS.

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

Your opinion. I have no problem with the truck race and the Nissan GT-R. Oh and I'm sure that a gear shift doesn't move like that at 130 km/h in a GT2RS.

No, it's not an opinion.

 

[Imari]

A very common misconception about race cars is that they are difficult to drive. Why engineers would spend so much of their time making a car more difficult to drive is beyond anyone. When competing, you want every possible odd in your favor, including the way the car behaves. A lot of time during the testing process actually involves getting the car to work with you rather than against you. The cars in pCars do the latter. It's like trying to handle a fish out of water.

Yes and no. Cars are no generally innately difficult to drive. But there's a big difference to be found between trying to push 9/10ths in a forgiving setup and in an alien's setup. Aliens don't find their setups particularly difficult, they find them quick. But give them to Average Joe and you might as well be handing him a greasy weasel instead of a steering wheel.

A lot of simulation games do a poor job of having accessable default settings on their cars.

 

[queleuleu]

No, it's not an opinion.

Ok.

 

[AnimaVesta]

Time for some demo leaderboards? Who's gonna beat this?

For the people having trouble with the Porsche, try turning ON stability control. It makes a world of difference. The car handles like it should.

Edited

 

[Francocosta02]

tbh if i have to make a decision whether i buy the game or not, using only the Porsche race, then its a big NO, it feels wrong..... but then after playing with the GTR you get in love with the game again.... mixed feelings, i guess i'll wait until release, wont preorder this.... Sounds improvements are mayor! at least on those cars in the demo, lets hope same happen with the rest of them, also liked the new dashcam without the steering, helped a lot on the GTR

 

[Symtex]

I explained the primary purpose of the demo in my earlier post if you're interested



Careful, you might get banned from ever playing pCars again!
Jokes aside, I had much to say about how cars handled in pCars. Whenever someone praises how "realistic" the game is, it honestly baffles me how they can think that. Cars with an immense amount of grip in real life feel like Mario Kart after driving over a banana peel.

A very common misconception about race cars is that they are difficult to drive. Why engineers would spend so much of their time making a car more difficult to drive is beyond anyone. When competing, you want every possible odd in your favor, including the way the car behaves. A lot of time during the testing process actually involves getting the car to work with you rather than against you. The cars in pCars do the latter. It's like trying to handle a fish out of water.

I agree. I had my share of track days with mustang. In PCars they are like driving on ice, never stick to the road,any bit of throttle and the backside goes flying. Well, in real life, they are actually pretty grippy. Even if you disable the TCS in the car, there is a portion of the TCS that never gets disable.

The notion that a difficult car to drive make it more sim is utterly ridiculous. I was watching Fith gear on TV. They were trying the Mclaren 12c Spider. The driver is a former professional race car driver. They were talking how the previous version of TCS was not very good and how Mclaren has now fixed it. No one drives a supercar without TCS anymore. In the same way that most supercar are no longer manual shift on a stick but all electronic assisted shifting. The technology is just faster and better than any human.

Unfortunately, TCS in games is nowhere near what a real TCS does in real life in some of these cars. So we are force to disable them but it doesn't make the game more sim.

 

[HAL20XX]

Did you get to test the brakes out at all? The braking performance on the GT3 is spine bending!

Oh, I did! From 165-ish (the digital tach in the playback video stopped at 160 but I was still accelerating!) down to 45. It was absolutely fantastic!

 

[BoneSawTX]

I play with a controller and the Porsche is simply awful to drive, zero feeling compared to Forza 6.

That's crazy because the 2nd time around I could get the car to do what I wanted and it didn't give me any surprises.