Forza Motorsport General Discussion Thread

[SU_Tempest]

I just wish VR fans would please understand VR is not the silver bullet they think it is.

Sure, VR may genuinely enhance the experience and immersion, it may be genuinely amazing to feel, but where's the game in all of this? VR hasn't made Gran Turismo 7 into a better game, just like an excellent physics engine and outstanding car feel haven't made Assetto Corsa's anemic career mode any better. A more immersive experience doesn't replace fun things to do. It's an excellent accessory, but it's not a """game-changer;""" that would require it actually changing the game, not the way you see or interact with the game.

EDIT: If I get poop reactions for this, I genuinely invite you to explain to me how VR would genuinely change Forza Motorsport for the better. FM already has a lot of work to do to change from FM7 and I'm of the impression many of the things it needs to do to improve from the previous entry have nothing to do with immersion.

 

[AttackDickie]

Not saying I'm getting hyped or anything but I've been running the race weekends presets in PC2 which I never bothered with before. Gonna be hard to dedicate time to sp let alone mp though.

 

[meganinja]

I just wish VR fans would please understand VR is not the silver bullet they think it is.

I do agree, VR is not the saint graal of sim racing like some people like to talk about

 

[Artremis]

I just wish VR fans would please understand VR is not the silver bullet they think it is.

Sure, VR may genuinely enhance the experience and immersion, it may be genuinely amazing to feel, but where's the game in all of this? VR hasn't made Gran Turismo 7 into a better game, just like an excellent physics engine and outstanding car feel haven't made Assetto Corsa's anemic career mode any better. A more immersive experience doesn't replace fun things to do. It's an excellent accessory, but it's not a """game-changer;""" that would require it actually changing the game, not the way you see or interact with the game.

EDIT: If I get poop reactions for this, I genuinely invite you to explain to me how VR would genuinely change Forza Motorsport for the better. FM already has a lot of work to do to change from FM7 and I'm of the impression many of the things it needs to do to improve from the previous entry have nothing to do with immersion.

I can't speak for GT7's VR mode as I don't have a PS VR2, but VR on the PC sims absolutely counts as a "game-changer" imo. I think it's fairly comparable to getting a wheel, which I doubt anyone would argue against being a "game-changer" compared to a controller.

It's true that a wheel won't make a career mode better, it won't fix bad monetization, and it won't fix hilariously off-model tracks (looking at you, F1 23 Spa). But it certainly enhances the experience by making the game more immersive by simulating the actual input methods of a real car and being able to offer additional feedback that most controllers can't replicate and, at least to me, it makes racing games a whole lot more fun. VR is similar in that it lets you more naturally interact with the car (ex: looking at mirrors, at the apex of a turn, behind when rejoining, etc.) and it also offers additional feedback by virtue of having depth perception and accurate FOV. Basically, "a more immersive experience doesn't replace fun things to do" is partially true, because a more immersive experience can make boring things fun and fun things even more fun. To me, that'd mean making the game better.

It's far for a requirement for the game to be good, mind you. There are more important things they need to nail first and if it comes later in an update it's not a huge deal, it's just that VR is a standard now in racing sims / simcades / whatever you wanna call them, so Forza missing it is a bit lame.

 

[skazz]

While I'd agree that a wheel and VR can take a simulator and make it closer to the real thing (add full motion rigs for the missing motion aspect), I'd argue that PD wouldn't have bothered with VR in GT7 if it hadn't been for Playstation VR2 and Sony's push.

The thing is, 99% of players of Forza will be sitting on a comfortable chair, holding a controller, watching a large screen (often a TV). The game is being developed with this user primarily in mind. Quite often not even an owner of the game, just playing Forza via Gamepass. This is where it has to look great, sound great and play well. End of story.

(Edit: In fact I'd argue that taking about 4k+HDR screen quality is a million times more relevant for visual display of Forza than VR to the real user base)

Messing around with wheels or VR is so totally not relevant for Microsoft's Gamepass KPIs. Sure, adding wheel support is something they can't just skip due to a decent installed base (even if it's just a tiny number compared to the millions of controller users), but VR is not in Xbox, so they simply don't need to spend money developing for it. Their overall user base won't be moved by VR support being in or out, nor will their owner Microsoft.




Sidenote edit: Just for those unaware, FH5 recently hit 32 million unique users in the "hall of fame". To do this you have to complete a bunch of missions and unlock all festivals in the game, which will take a good 5-10 hours of play. So 32 million people have played FH5 for far longer than just a quick demo.

Now who wants to make an educated guess how many of those 32 million are using a wheel versus the controller?
Let's assume FM2023 has 10x higher wheel users, it'll still be a tiny percentage...

 

[UKMikey]

Knocking VR support is weak sauce broke cope, as I was forcibly reminded during a recent ill-advised trip to the GT7 forum. That poster wasn't very impressed when I put up a video of Oculus Quest 2 GRiD Legends to demonstrate that not every developer considers it a priority, however.

I wasn't even knocking VR, by the way. By all accounts it's a fantastic and immersive addition to simulation videogames. An AAA mass market game which needs a VR helmet or motion rig or even a steering wheel before it becomes engaging, though, has what I consider to be a fundamental design problem.

Fortunately it sounds like all of us (except maybe one or two absent posters) are on the same page here in this discussion in trying to make sure the cake is sufficiently baked before demanding more icing on top.


Old meme is old. Stephanie must be a grandmother by now

Splitscreen gaming is great. Playing Mario Kart 8 Deluxe with my family using 4 players split screen is probably one of my fondest racing game memories so far.

I think I could handle vertical split screen on today's wider aspect ratio TVs. Horizontal didn't really work for me in Forza, although I'm sure Nintendo have decades of expertise in making it a great experience in games like MK8D which I assume is a four way split.

Sidenote edit: Just for those unaware, FH5 recently hit 32 million unique users in the "hall of fame". To do this you have to complete a bunch of missions and unlock all festivals in the game, which will take a good 5-10 hours of play. So 32 million people have played FH5 for far longer than just a quick demo.

This just might be longer than it took me to complete the menu books in that other game. In fact I might have ended up spending more time installing that game and downloading updates than I did to get to the credits. Hope I end up spending more time than that with FM 2023 but for now I'm fairly confident that'll be the case.

 

[BOK]

Despite what’s some players say VR is a small section of players in what is still a niche genre of gaming (sim racing). Considering Xbox has no support for VR there is literally no reason to dedicate development time to this and won’t effect the sales of the game in any meaningful way, so yeah VR is a moot point

 

[uMattzz]

The Video from HokiHoshi Say that we will not have Qualy and Practice in Private Lobbies, Is Simple Unbelievable we don't Have a Feature like this

 

[UKMikey]

The Video from HokiHoshi Say that we will not have Qualy and Practice in Private Lobbies, Is Simple Unbelievable we don't Have a Feature like this

To be clear it says there's nothing to stop people setting up dedicated qualifying and practice sessions. It's not quite the same though and sounds like a poor substitute.

 

[SU_Tempest]

Knocking VR support is weak sauce broke cope, as I was forcibly reminded during an ill advised trip to the GT7 forum. That poster wasn't very impressed when I put up a video of Oculus Quest 2 GRiD Legends to demonstrate that not every developer considers it a priority, however.

"Broke cope" is code for "Oh, you're one of the poors, screw you." What a genuinely garbage opinion. I stand by my statement that VR makes the game more exclusive instead of more accessible if that's how the most ardent defenders act.

 

[meganinja]

Old meme is old. Stephanie must be a grandmother by now

The original has 32, the second Steph has 21

The Video from HokiHoshi Say that we will not have Qualy and Practice in Private Lobbies, Is Simple Unbelievable we don't Have a Feature like this

To be clear it says there's nothing to stop people setting up dedicated qualifying and practice sessions. It's not quite the same though and sounds like a poor substitute.

I am sure they could put in a update
If they can put on Competitve Multiplayer, they can put on regular multiplayer

 

[UKMikey]

"Broke cope" is code for "Oh, you're one of the poors, screw you." What a genuinely garbage opinion. I stand by my statement that VR makes the game more exclusive instead of more accessible if that's how the most ardent defenders act.

"Meh, that sounds exactly like something a flatscreen peasant would say" -- that user (probably)

The original has 32, the second Steph has 21

I was kinda exaggerating, although it's possible to be a grandmother at 32 in some countries like the UK where the legal age of consent is 16.

I am sure they could put in a update
If they can put on Competitve Multiplayer, they can put on regular multiplayer

While I'm not really invested in the multiplayer experience (unlike Chris E. who keeps stressing they heavily invested in it), I really hope T10 listen to the community feedback and quickly add features like private practice and quali (and AI backfill if the game doesn't have it) as it'd greatly improve the game's online presence - and longevity.

It'd be a great shame for MS/T10 to go to all that effort in overhauling the game's online racing experience just to spoil it for something they could fix relatively easily.

 

[FordGTGuy]

I do agree, VR is not the saint graal of sim racing like some people like to talk about

A steering wheel and nice pedal set is way better of a purchase than a VR headset if someone had to choose such a thing. I would be interested in the percentage of the console racing community that seriously uses VR headsets for racing on a common basis.

 

[SimTourist]

Man the graphics keep looking worse and worse with every new bit of new footage, apart from 3D trees it looks almost the same as FM7, the art direction keeps holding them back, the car models are direct carryovers build for 2013 Xbox One specs, hell the back lights are still orange instead of red like they're supposed to. Also zero RT in any of the gameplay footage, maybe scrapped quietly. 6 years for this?

 

[whannel]

As an Xbox owner kinda tied to Microsoft now I've dived into their ecosystems after buying a wheel with the Xbox chip in whichever it is between base and wheel that makes it harder for me to jump to PS than the other way round, I feel pretty left out when seeing what PS now offer.

With sim racing influencers describing GT7 VR as a game changer I was hoping this year's Xbox showcase might tell us more about the Meta partnership as I'm guessing that's what we'll be looking at for our VR, but no news yet, and I'm not sure if the latest from Meta is as good as Sony's VR 2 which was reported as better than many PC VR headsets for the price. Obviously they're still at an exclusive price point, but Game Pass should mean we don't need consoles any more. It's a shame Sony have beaten us to 4K given I'm sure they run it using MS azure, and that xCloud doesn't even support mouse and keyboard never mind wheels. Users suggesting to just wait until the CMA allow them to waste $69bn on CoD when GTA V was made for just $250m is discouraging to think they'd hold us back to pretend not many people use cloud gaming, as their CEO said he's taking this year's Xbox Showcase games to 3 billion players, despite console sales of only 20m million.

Guess we won't struggle to find people for multiplayer, but I'd rather race high quality AI with zero waiting about, connection issues etc. I don't understand why any developer would even bother with multiplayer now that realistic AI should exist. If it took my Meta contacts names and look and turned them into who I was racing I'd much prefer that to trying to arrange anything with them in the real world, should they ever even bother with Game Pass via whatever extended free trial all Meta members will be offered.

 

[JDMKING13]

A steering wheel and nice pedal set is way better of a purchase than a VR headset if someone had to choose such a thing. I would be interested in the percentage of the console racing community that seriously uses VR headsets for racing on a common basis.

After playing PSVR2 I don’t know about that… I mean going off you guys information more people play with a controller than wheels.. I have a decent cockpit setup.. entry level in my opinion and that set up cost me $1,100 The thing with VR is you can use it with the controller and it actually makes controller play even better! I have just as a good time sitting on my couch with my controller to play GT7 in VR vs wheel. I went to vacation with my family and while everyone was watching their shows and enjoying TV… I was using the same TV to play GT7 in VR. My sister just start getting into racing games.. she doesn’t like the wheel so much, but always tells me when she comes over and plays GT7 she wished she had VR… She has no interest in a wheel… but loves the VR and controller experience and she actually faster in VR. I’m not even bother VR is not in FM… it wasn’t in GT7 for the first year… but hopefully down the line it makes it into the game… I think the average player just using a controller can really enjoy the VR experience like myself.

 

[UKMikey]

6 years for this?

Nope, six years for this.

I don't understand why any developer would even bother with multiplayer now that realistic AI should exist.

Well... that's a take.

Some people will always prefer to race other people than programmed artificial opponents. Having a robust MP component that allows those people to get together and hold online competitions extends the life of the game way beyond the point when offline developer support runs out. It's not for me at the moment, but I can't see how anyone could seriously argue that it shouldn't even be a thing when games like GTA V are still popular online eight years after release. What developer wouldn't want a piece of that pie?

 

[JDMKING13]

Well... that's a take.

I honestly don’t care how good AI is… it will NEVER beat racing with good people IMO.

 

[UKMikey]

I think the average player just using a controller can really enjoy the VR experience like myself.

That's great but the entry price seems out of reach to the average player to me at the moment, particularly with the cost of a new console added in.

 

[JDMKING13]

That's great but the entry price seems out of reach to the average player to me at the moment, particularly with the cost of a new console added in.

Well I was going off what buddy was talking about how a wheel is better purchase than VR… which going off you guys take.. more players are on controllers. $600 is a lot less than $1,100 to boost your experience and not only that you can get a lot more outta the VR vs the wheel especially for controller users. My Sis is a casual gamer and tells me she would buy VR vs getting a wheel.

 

[UKMikey]

Well I was going off what buddy was talking about how a wheel is better purchase than VR… which going off you guys take.. more players are on controllers. $600 is a lot less than $1,100 to boost your experience and not only that you can get a lot more outta the VR vs the wheel especially for controller users. My Sis is a casual gamer and tells me she would buy VR vs getting a wheel.

I had no idea wheels cost $1,100 now. Whereas PSVR2 is the price of a new console and requires the additional cost of a PS5 to make it work.

I think it'll make a difference in the future but isn't central to the average player's experience at this moment in time. Maybe it needs to be marketed and supported harder for this to happen but like I said above I feel like entry price is an overriding factor right now.

 

[JDMKING13]

I had no idea wheels cost $1,100 now. Whereas PSVR2 is the price of a new console and requires the additional cost of a PS5 to make it work.

I think it'll make a difference in the future but isn't central to the average player's experience at this moment in time. Maybe it needs to be marketed and supported harder for this to happen.

Well not just my wheel… my wheel was $400 but then you gotta get a setup to put the wheel on and etc… that’s where the 1,100 comes from… you can prob save more money also… but even at that my setup is an entry level setup.

Also this is about XBOX and VR if they did come out with it… I’m not expecting someone to go get a whole another system to try VR… I only bought the new Xbox because of FM… It’s at my brother in laws house now… but I told him as soon as FM comes out… yea ima need that back. 😂 if the new FM came out with a VR system I would buy it first day over a wheel… granted I love playing with a wheel, but I would get a lot more fun outta of the VR system, save money and time.

 

[PJTierney]

VR is a significant technological challenge, as the minimum framerate requirement is higher (minimum 90fps x 2 displays) than what you optimise flatscreen for (60fps for 1 display).

Outside of the PC-focused games, you typically only see VR for titles when a headset developer (usually Oculus) funds the port.

DiRT Rally 2.0 got VR 6 months after launch but in reality it was only properly working 3 months after that.

VR isn’t a significant part of Microsoft’s overall technological strategy, and I doubt Turn 10 would want to compromise on the flatscreen experience in order to allocate production time (and pre-production, to see if their game engine can even do it in the first place).

 

[syphe]

The problem I think VR will always have is that it will never be clear as modern flat screens, I haven't tried PSVR2 to see how foveated rendering fixes the issue, but I have a Quest2 at home atm, and still spend most of my time playing on an ultra-wide simply because the clarity is so much better. Maybe eventually it will reach a point of vanishing returns in terms of clarity, at which point VR will be killer, but until then, the clarity sacrifice will always be real

 

[Cayit]

Hopefully we will be NOT dissapointed after the Release of FM like we were with GT7...
I hope that FM wii last longer than GT7 did, with it's useless Offline races...

 

[Mirai]

Man the graphics keep looking worse and worse with every new bit of new footage, apart from 3D trees it looks almost the same as FM7, the art direction keeps holding them back, the car models are direct carryovers build for 2013 Xbox One specs, hell the back lights are still orange instead of red like they're supposed to. Also zero RT in any of the gameplay footage, maybe scrapped quietly. 6 years for this?

If all you do is complain about the tiniest, most insignificant details, why are you on this thread

 

[SimTourist]

If all you do is complain about the tiniest, most insignificant details, why are you on this thread

How are the graphics insignificant? Every other feature they're touting could be and has been done on Xbox One and even Xbox 360 in other games. Let's be honest Forza has always been an easy accessible racer that attracted people with graphics, easy handling and social features, for serious simracing it has never been in the conversation.

 

[Emick81]

I doubt these new Physics and dynamic weather at any time of day at any track could be done on a Xbox one or X360.

 

[SimTourist]

I doubt these new Physics and dynamic weather at any time of day at any track could be done on a Xbox one or X360.

PCars, Assetto, F1...

 

[SU_Tempest]

How are the graphics insignificant? Every other feature they're touting could be and has been done on Xbox One and even Xbox 360 in other games. Let's be honest Forza has always been an easy accessible racer that attracted people with graphics, easy handling and social features, for serious simracing it has never been in the conversation.

You're complaining about the art direction on the reveal trailers of an in-development game. Setting aside the fact what you're saying is ludicrous - this is not a bad-looking game and you are hunting for things to complain about - the way the game looks isn't indicative of the quality of the gameplay loop. Here's a revolutionary idea: How about waiting for it to release and saving your judgment until then? The lowest investment you have to make is a Game Pass subscription...

(edited after re-reading but point stands)