Forza Motorsport General Discussion Thread

[UKMikey]

My issue is that there's reasonable criticisms about the structure of the game, and then there is endlessly quibbling about graphics that basically boils down to demanding more when the law of diminishing returns is incredibly evident when it comes to anything above 1080p/HD graphics.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say in the above post. I've invited the poster in question to provide comparative screenshots but so far:

Their version of Sophy sounds intriguing to me.

I'm not expecting alien-level AI. Sophy is more like T-1000 level while I feel these drivatars, although demonstrably improved over FH7's, will be more like the cannon fodder bots in the war against the machines. I'm interested to find out how they'll make mistakes and bad judgments though since I'm not exactly Igor Fraga myself.

 

[PJTierney]

Thanks Skazz, it's not something I have ever looked at or researched. But Chris as banging that drum so it kind of intrigued me. It's either a big thing for Forza or it's just more PR. But it sounds like it's a legit improvement.

The main reason it’s happening now is because the series is no longer on Xbox One. That CPU was holding lots of things back, like AI and tyre simulation. Look at PC games with similar fidelity (Project Cars 2, Assetto Corsa Competizione) and their Xbox One ports struggle to hit 60fps.

 

[Beezer215]

To put their physics claims into context, the refresh rate of 360 cycles per second, and 8 points of contact for the tires, how does that compare to say iRacing, PC2, etc? I tried to Google the answers, but I don't see other games discussing that other than ACC has 5 points of contact.

Unfortunately, we really can't draw a conclusion about how FM(2023)'s physics are going to feel like no matter how many points of contact they claim a tire has or what refresh rate they're drawing at. For an example, Assetto Corsa has one point of contact per tire. However, the physics are quite good, the feeling is good and the FFB is wonderful. Even being ten years old, it's a great standard to base a physics experience and FFB model off of. Even though the tire model is a bit dated and starting to age. They obviously updated this in ACC.

What makes it good? A bunch of systems working together to form a physics entity. Start with real geometry to the suspension. A-arms, double wishbone, struts, rear full axle. AC models these geometries. Does FM? We don't know. then spring and dampers. AC models progressive spring rates, bumpstop thickness and material and rate of compression, damper fast and slow bump and rebound as well as movable crossover point. All these working together with a complete 4 parameter steering rack and cars inertia creates really good Force Feedback through a wheel. We have no clue where FM(2023)'s physics end at. They told us about 8 points of contact and a refresh rate. You can draw absolutely no conclusion from that and how they personally are going to apply these physics enhancements to their engine. I cringe when Chris says things like "I'd put it up against any sim on the market" or "no sim has this level of detail" or whatever the heck he said. Please don't. Just don't. lol

A painter can use 20 colors to make a painting and it can still be crap. A talented painter can use just 3 colors and make a piece of marvelous art. It's all how it's applied to the main picture. I would be interested to hear exactly what each of these 8 points are calculating and why 8 creates something that 5 in ACC can't. I'll go out on a limb and say that ACC's physics model is still going to be far ahead of what FM(2023) is going to produce. It's an accessibility - all ages type of scenario for these types of games like GT or FM. I hope they get to a more realistic model though and it seems like that's what they're working towards.

I believe AMS2 has 3 points of contact but then again, it could very well be more seeing how complex that physics engine is. They have amazing tire flex and properties. the sidewalls, contact patch and elasticity seem to constantly get little updates as they fine tune the experience of each car.


Sorry to ramble. I'm a physics guy and that's the type of stuff that interests me in a simulation.

 

[turk1993]

That's pretty much what I was trying to say in the above post. I've invited the poster in question to provide comparative screenshots but so far:

View attachment 1280101

 

[UKMikey]

A painter can use 20 colors to make a painting and it can still be crap. A talented painter can use just 3 colors and make a piece of marvelous art. It's all how it's applied to the main picture. I would be interested to hear exactly what each of these 8 points are calculating and why 8 creates something that 5 in ACC can't. I'll go out on a limb and say that ACC's physics model is still going to be far ahead of what FM(2023) is going to produce. It's an accessibility - all ages type of scenario for these types of games like GT or FM. I hope they get to a more realistic model though and it seems like that's what they're working towards.

If my short experience with ACC on the Series X is any indication, I'm delighted that a more advanced physics model doesn't mean cars are harder to drive for relative klutzes like me. If anything it seems to transmit more information to the driver allowing them to correct mistakes more easily.

A good controller filter goes a long way, though and Turn 10 are no slouches in that regard at least. Hopefully the game will be even better with a wheel setup.

I didn't mean you, mate, I know you always bring the receipts 👍

 

[Beezer215]

If my short experience with ACC on the Series X is any indication, I'm delighted that a more advanced physics model doesn't mean cars are harder to drive for relative klutzes like me. If anything they transmit more information to the driver allowing them to correct mistakes more easily.

You are most correct sir. A more realistic physics experience does NOT always equate to a harder experience contrary to what you hear in these forums. Sure the complexity means that more factors are affecting the way you drive and the outcome you'll receive, but you'll also better understand why you made those mistakes and feel them. They make sense. Not so much like FM7 where as, I lifted off the gas in this corner and now my car is going around for no reason. It's hard to understand why that's happening when it isn't a very realistic representation of a real life experience.

 

[skazz]

I think a lot of people went through the whole era of car simulation improvements. At first, games like GTR, iRacing and rFactor were incredibly difficult to keep cars on the road, with spiky tyre models that would spit you out as soon as you looked like you might lose traction.

Thankfully with time most modern simulator engines have become better at simulating grip, the edge of grip, regaining grip, and communicating each of these stages through FFB so you can feel what's happening and preemptively correct. We're in quite a good place now, and you can see the community generally admitting that the major players are all somewhat more similar than the equivalent major players were 10 years ago.

Of course, grip is something any road or race car should have plenty of unless you are searching for those last few tenths to really wring out the absolute fastest you can. That's the area when things get sketchy, and each simulator still has different strengths and weaknesses when it comes to simulating the different components of the car's suspension and tyres against the surface of the road and the grip of that surface.

In the PC simulators world there will always be people for whom differing game engines work best. One of the most crucial differences we have is also whether to provide "seat of your pants" FFB information through the steering wheel FFB or not. It's not realistic, but most people can't build a cockpit setup with a massive subwoofer below the seat to send this information where it should go. (NB: Forza chooses not to send much surface detail stuff through the FFB, which might be correct but causes a lot of dissatisfaction. These bumps are definitely simulated but since they would be felt through your chair not your steering wheel in real life they are left outside of the FFB information)


So yeah, it's possible to go as far as you want in search of perfect simulation. $100k D-box simulators with direct drive wheels and high end VR is probably the best we have today, but even that has limitations.

Forza Motorsport will always be a recreational fun game, intended for a core audience sitting on their sofa, holding their controller, watching a big screen TV. That limits what it can realistically achieve. Not only in terms of what T10 can build, but also in terms of what T10 has to deliberately dumb down in order to make the game accessible to their core user base (and still fair online or in rivals).

 

[UKMikey]

Forza Motorsport will always be a recreational fun game, intended for a core audience sitting on their sofa, holding their controller, watching a big screen TV. That limits what it can realistically achieve. Not only in terms of what T10 can build, but also in terms of what T10 has to deliberately dumb down in order to make the game accessible to their core user base (and still fair online or in rivals).

I'm happy with the feeling of grip when approaching corners but would love a little more information about road surface undulations and bumps to be transmitted as well.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Unfortunately, we really can't draw a conclusion about how FM(2023)'s physics are going to feel like no matter how many points of contact they claim a tire has or what refresh rate they're drawing at. For an example, Assetto Corsa has one point of contact per tire. However, the physics are quite good, the feeling is good and the FFB is wonderful. Even being ten years old, it's a great standard to base a physics experience and FFB model off of. Even though the tire model is a bit dated and starting to age. They obviously updated this in ACC.

What makes it good? A bunch of systems working together to form a physics entity. Start with real geometry to the suspension. A-arms, double wishbone, struts, rear full axle. AC models these geometries. Does FM? We don't know. then spring and dampers. AC models progressive spring rates, bumpstop thickness and material and rate of compression, damper fast and slow bump and rebound as well as movable crossover point. All these working together with a complete 4 parameter steering rack and cars inertia creates really good Force Feedback through a wheel. We have no clue where FM(2023)'s physics end at. They told us about 8 points of contact and a refresh rate. You can draw absolutely no conclusion from that and how they personally are going to apply these physics enhancements to their engine. I cringe when Chris says things like "I'd put it up against any sim on the market" or "no sim has this level of detail" or whatever the heck he said. Please don't. Just don't. lol

A painter can use 20 colors to make a painting and it can still be crap. A talented painter can use just 3 colors and make a piece of marvelous art. It's all how it's applied to the main picture. I would be interested to hear exactly what each of these 8 points are calculating and why 8 creates something that 5 in ACC can't. I'll go out on a limb and say that ACC's physics model is still going to be far ahead of what FM(2023) is going to produce. It's an accessibility - all ages type of scenario for these types of games like GT or FM. I hope they get to a more realistic model though and it seems like that's what they're working towards.

I believe AMS2 has 3 points of contact but then again, it could very well be more seeing how complex that physics engine is. They have amazing tire flex and properties. the sidewalls, contact patch and elasticity seem to constantly get little updates as they fine tune the experience of each car.


Sorry to ramble. I'm a physics guy and that's the type of stuff that interests me in a simulation.

Thank you for the detailed response. Nothing I have ever known, and now I know. And a great comparison to painting as well. Makes all the sense in the world to me.

In the end, I am sure I won't feel or notice 8 points of contact. I just want to be able to pick up and play like I have in previous Forza games. I like ACC, but it's not "pick up and play"....it has to be finessed. And I like that too. But that isn't Forza, normally.

 

[skazz]

I'm happy with the feeling of grip when approaching corners but would love a little more information about road surface undulations and bumps to be transmitted as well.

Yeah, see my edit. It's clearly deliberate by T10. Maybe to avoid overloading us with information about grip levels and surface undulations all through the same controller vibration.

In terms of FFB, Forza is likewise pretty limited when it comes to undulations feel. But that's their deliberate choice. We shall see if they mix in more surface noise to the FFB in FM2023.

 

[UKMikey]

In the end, I am sure I won't feel or notice 8 points of contact. I just want to be able to pick up and play like I have in previous Forza games. I like ACC, but it's not "pick up and play"....it has to be finessed. And I like that too. But that isn't Forza, normally.

I do find myself occasionally jamming the handbrake in ACC in an attempt to slide around corners Forza-style but thankfully it doesn't work because they didn't implement that unrealistic mechanic. This forces me to learn more realistic techniques like cadence and trail braking to slow the car down more controllably and set up the exit better, which is great. At least, that's what I think I'm doing, anyway.

Yeah, see my edit. It's clearly deliberate by T10. Maybe to avoid overloading us with information about grip levels and surface undulations all through the same controller vibration.

In terms of FFB, Forza is likewise pretty limited when it comes to undulations feel. But that's their deliberate choice. We shall see if they mix in more surface noise to the FFB in FM2023.

I think it's possible to tell people they've gone over a crest or that the grass is playing havoc with their suspension without hopelessly confusing them with information overload, even on a rumble pad controller. I'm sure other games manage to do it and it makes those long stretches more interesting.

It's a shame if they can't at least add it as an option if that's their concern, but I guess it is what it is as I suspect T10 aren't as suggestions hub-focused as their Playground colleagues and would maybe reject requests to add this.

 

[whannel]

Long way from "photorealistic" although the non-gameplay trailers did look good. Seems a huge risk to print that term on the box, at the risk of Trading Standards pulling it from shelves.

Unless perhaps Microsoft plan to conquer the world and bring this to "3 billion" by severely upgrading cloud gaming to also bring additional graphic capabilities, effectively abandoning the low user counts of their consoles for online quantum computing instead - maybe it'll be in 8K, 240fps with VR if our fibre/5G can handle that.

Some of the 'photorealistic' AC on PC mods show that improvements can certainly be added at a later date, so who knows - it'd be nice if they could bring those over to Xbox now, and maybe even port ACC to UE5 if even just for a nicer lighting model with Lumen. Might be too much before AC2 in spring though, maybe GTRevival in a year or so will be the first time we see circuit racing photorealism on Xbox, if AC2 doesn't bother with graphics.

 

[skazz]

There's no way GTRevival will look better than Forza on an Xbox. It's not happening.
I also doubt AC2 will look much better than ACC currently does on Series X hardware. Which is already pretty good, but has plenty of aliasing and quite low res textures (depending on LOD). I think FM2023 will outperform ACC and AC2 due to Microsoft's 1st party advantages when it comes to tuning.

Also you are neglecting HDR right now. Those basic shots of FM2023 have plenty of detail, it just needs the right lighting model with appropriate shaders (for example grass and other objects need to properly self-shadow each individual blade) to look photorealistic. That's something which is probably not fully ready in the preproduction shots but can get further before release.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Long way from "photorealistic" although the non-gameplay trailers did look good. Seems a huge risk to print that term on the box, at the risk of Trading Standards pulling it from shelves.

Unless perhaps Microsoft plan to conquer the world and bring this to "3 billion" by severely upgrading cloud gaming to also bring additional graphic capabilities, effectively abandoning the low user counts of their consoles for online quantum computing instead - maybe it'll be in 8K, 240fps with VR if our fibre/5G can handle that.

Some of the 'photorealistic' AC on PC mods show that improvements can certainly be added at a later date, so who knows - it'd be nice if they could bring those over to Xbox now, and maybe even port ACC to UE5 if even just for a nicer lighting model with Lumen. Might be too much before AC2 in spring though, maybe GTRevival in a year or so will be the first time we see circuit racing photorealism on Xbox, if AC2 doesn't bother with graphics.

Would love to know your definition of "photorealistic".

It's a completely subjective term as no game is truly photorealistic and the standards for such a thing constantly change.

 

[turk1993]

Long way from "photorealistic" although the non-gameplay trailers did look good. Seems a huge risk to print that term on the box, at the risk of Trading Standards pulling it from shelves.

Unless perhaps Microsoft plan to conquer the world and bring this to "3 billion" by severely upgrading cloud gaming to also bring additional graphic capabilities, effectively abandoning the low user counts of their consoles for online quantum computing instead - maybe it'll be in 8K, 240fps with VR if our fibre/5G can handle that.

Some of the 'photorealistic' AC on PC mods show that improvements can certainly be added at a later date, so who knows - it'd be nice if they could bring those over to Xbox now, and maybe even port ACC to UE5 if even just for a nicer lighting model with Lumen. Might be too much before AC2 in spring though, maybe GTRevival in a year or so will be the first time we see circuit racing photorealism on Xbox, if AC2 doesn't bother with graphics.

You know some places on earth can actually look like that, life is not always colorless. This is how Maple Valley looks in real life

 

[willbsn13]

 

[meganinja]

LeMans Trailer

Hmmmmmmm intresting, the new Daytona Chicane has no Daytona logo on it...

 

[Northstar]

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Different chicanes.

Top pic is the first
Bottom pic is the second

 

[uMattzz]

Hmmmmmmm intresting, the new Daytona Chicane has no Daytona logo on it... View attachment 1280178

View attachment 1280177

The Daytona Logo, Layout and Rolex 24 logo appears in the Corvette C8.R

 

[FordGTGuy]

Thank god the GT-40 MK I didn't get the axe.

Now we just need the MK IV...

 

[LumpiestFish]

Different chicanes.

Top pic is the first
Bottom pic is the second

No it’s not, the second pic is just from the opposite angle.

 

[Populuxe]

No it’s not, the second pic is just from the opposite angle.

Correct answer is correct. The first chicane goes to the right, just like in both those photos. The second chicane goes to the left.

 

[SimTourist]

No one cares about graphics to the level that you are hyper-analyzing. Seriously, just quit man.

Even less people care about some minor physics changes.

 

[turk1993]

Even less people care about some minor physics changes.

We’ve already told you that the physics leap in Forza Motorsport is bigger than Forza Motorsport 5, 6 and 7 combined. This 48x improvement in tire fidelity results in a more fun and rewarding driving experience with how the car accelerates, corners, and brakes.

We’ve also overhauled our vehicle dynamics including the tire model with soft, medium and hard compounds, realistic suspension, braking and weight modeling that includes fuel and supports ballast adjustments. These improvements add more depth to driving and encourage new players to find and exceed their limits. Finally, there are massive improvements to our AI so it can keep up with the fastest drivers in our community. We’ll have more to share on that later!


minor?

 

[Jezza819]

If you have the Ferrari 512 S don't you need to have it's main rival the Porsche 917?

 

[Beezer215]

Even less people care about some minor physics changes.

Ouch. Kinda seems like someone is a little sour grapes that they're actually caring about the quality of the driving experience in FM. Is it starting to sync in that PD just isn't showing that they care about GT7? It's OK to be disappointed. We all go duped by that mess.

 

[nukleabomb]

If you have the Ferrari 512 S don't you need to have it's main rival the Porsche 917?

I think the 917LH is already confirmed. The other two 917 (Can am spyder and the pink pig) will probably not be considered vintage, as this list seems to cut off at 1970.

The pink pig was considered prototype group racing division and the Can am was in specials, in fm7. Both are 1 or 2 years newer that the LH.

 

[SimTourist]

We’ve already told you that the physics leap in Forza Motorsport is bigger than Forza Motorsport 5, 6 and 7 combined. This 48x improvement in tire fidelity results in a more fun and rewarding driving experience with how the car accelerates, corners, and brakes.

We’ve also overhauled our vehicle dynamics including the tire model with soft, medium and hard compounds, realistic suspension, braking and weight modeling that includes fuel and supports ballast adjustments. These improvements add more depth to driving and encourage new players to find and exceed their limits. Finally, there are massive improvements to our AI so it can keep up with the fastest drivers in our community. We’ll have more to share on that later!


minor?

What will the majority of people notice more? The graphics or the physics?

 

[turk1993]

What will the majority of people notice more? The graphics or the physics?