Forza Motorsport General Discussion Thread

[MagpieRacer]

By no means do I want to defend the cookie cutter copy/pasting of games both T10/PG and PD have been doing the last years, and you made some valid points, but how on earth can you consider GTS a bold step? It’s basically deleting the singleplayer content from the previous itteration and call it Sport.

Because if you view it as simply deleting rhe single player content, you've missed the point. Also, being bold doesn't have to be synonymous with being good. PD changed the whole angle of attack, from how cars were tuned to how you raced them, new car classes, Sport mode itself, it took everything that made Gran Turismo, Gran Turismo, and turned it upside down. If that isn't bold I don't know what is.

Did it work? Not for me, yeah they added single player content within a couple months and whatnot but it didn't do it for me. But I can't say it wasn't bold.

 

[breyzipp]

Because if you view it as simply deleting rhe single player content, you've missed the point. Also, being bold doesn't have to be synonymous with being good. PD changed the whole angle of attack, from how cars were tuned to how you raced them, new car classes, Sport mode itself, it took everything that made Gran Turismo, Gran Turismo, and turned it upside down. If that isn't bold I don't know what is.

Did it work? Not for me, yeah they added single player content within a couple months and whatnot but it didn't do it for me. But I can't say it wasn't bold.

I don’t consider stripping down a game to a bare-bone skeleton of its former self as being bold, but whatever. Remember GTS launched with severe cuts in tracks, cars and lack of proper singleplayer content. And don’t get me started on scapes, that’s just fluff on the side (same as Forzavista in the other camp).

 

[Tornado]

A X360 car model in FH5 vs GT7, Just to show you guys how exaggerating all of you act about those soo called "360 standard looking cars"




...




I don't also like those ugly models and hope that they will fix them, but some of you guys act like most cars from the 360 era in Forza look like that.

Some are better than others, but basically every car in the first 3 games look off.

From FM4 and forward, the quality of the new assets improved dramatically.

In some cases (E30, SW20, S15, Countach, 22B, etc) its so wrong (proportions are simply off) that its jarring

Not if the 360 model looked bad to begin with; and some of the pre-Forza 4 cars

It's not the SW20 or the 22B or FD3S or Sagaris, but it's not great and it sure as hell isn't ground up.

And if the SW20 and 22B

Would have saved everyone some internet bandwidth, tbh.

No no no man you're not understanding. The standard cars looked "accurate" to there irl counterparts. It doesn't matter if they were direct PS2 ports. It doesn't matter if they lacked interiors and good sounds. What matters is they are better than Forza inaccurate cars because they're 'accurate'.

I like how you're posting this as if you didn't spend the first several years you were on this forum fellating PD for basically everything they did and I didn't spend the entirety of GT5 and GT6's life ripping into PD for including and repeatedly deliberately misrepresenting the Standard cars. Yes, a car that looks more accurate to a real life car looks more accurate to a real life car. That remains the case regardless of if it was something PD did on a PS2 devkit in 1999. In fact, I would have thought this was stuff that was understood 25 years ago when the first Gran Turismo game came out and easily outpaced anything before it; nevermind "technically" more "impressive" things that came early in the DC/PS2's life that nonetheless looked like trash in comparison like Test Drive 6.






Is there something you'd actually like to add that somehow implies that a car having a higher polygon budget means it is inherently more accurate?

Ah, yes because those PS2 models are some laser scanned down to the mm proportions.

And the people who did some of the earlier, repeatedly-carried-over assets from early in the franchise were measuring in mm with a Standard ruler.

No it is not the same Xbox 360 models.

They have already made clear before that the models are built from the same or similar source material and likely by the same contractors. Therefore you are going to see a lot of the same mistakes being made over and over due to the source material that they use.

Just like Game Freak did with Sword and Shield, I'm sure.











In fact, it sure would be embarrassing for some people in this thread who keep trying to blow off criticisms of obviously ported car models (and the potential for other, significantly worse ones to reappear) if there were a bunch of posts of from a decade ago they were constantly ripping into people for criticizing Forza 5's infamous dearth of content as part of their one-man crusade to defend how also definitely "rebuilt from scratch" (honest!) Greenawalt constantly claimed that game was.

You can cry and whine all you want about it but these cars never looked like this in Forza 4 and Forza 5's biggest thing is the jump in graphical fidelity of the car models. This isn't Gran Turismo and Microsoft isn't going to just port over a bunch of Forza 4 cars just to inflate a car list

It's insanely hypocritical to defend the porting of exact content through three games

I Don't need to play GT6 to have a opinion on the content moved over to the game because I know it's the same exact content....

Entirely rebuilt car models, new physics engine, new tire engine, new graphical engine and laser-scanned tracks in the largest racing game ever at a console launch isn't good enough?

We've been over the lack of content many times and you'd think someone in a pictures thread in the game would notice that most of these car models and tracks have been redone from scratch so expecting straight ports of content from a previous title on last-gen is pretty silly.

Or at least I suppose it would be embarrassing if they weren't so frequently just Zer0 for the other team.











On that topic:

As far as the whole recycled models part goes, 1970 Chevelle. I posted it elsewhere, but it's just a gussied up version of the inaccurate model from before.

Same with the 1969 Camaro and 1970 Chevelle, both cars have just enough off that you can tell they don't look right.

I'm sorry buickgnx88. You must be wrong here just like you must have been wrong in 2014. They clearly rebuilt everything from scratch, and somehow the exact same individual contractors made the exact same individual modeling mistakes and possibly even overwhelmingly the same wireframes. So it is written, so it will be dictated in this forum for 3-6 months after this game releases to defend any of its failings.



After all, developers always tell the truth about such things.

 

[INEEDNAWZZZ]

At least the GT standard cars were proportionally correct. Low fidelity for sure, but at least they weren't wrong.

Especially impressive considering they weren't using laser scanning back then. You can certainly see why they were confident enough in the idea that standards would work in GT5; their issue was that they didn't clean any of them up and it made it extremely jarring. GT6 had a few that received touch ups that made them near enough Premium quality without the interior, though it was a small amount and a weird selection that got the treatment (the 106 Rallye got it for example).

 

[TokoTurismo]

I like how you're posting this as if you didn't spend the first several years you were on this forum fellating PD for basically everything they did and I didn't spend the entirety of GT5 and GT6's life ripping into PD for including and repeatedly deliberately misrepresenting the Standard cars.

Fellating PD, Tornado? Really? I may have defended their actions back then, but not to THAT point. Yeesh.

Yes, a car that looks more accurate to a real life car looks more accurate to a real life car.

Uh huh. But as a causal, the cars in Forza don't really bother me that much. Heck, I don't think even the standard cars bothered me. So much as I collected ALL of them back on GT5. As long as I get to drive a car in a video game, I'm happy, accurate or not.

Is there something you'd actually like to add that somehow implies that a car having a higher polygon budget means it is inherently more accurate?

Not at all and never planned to. Do I need to? I don't think so, since that's the kind of argument I'm staying far away from, haha.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Especially impressive considering they weren't using laser scanning back then. You can certainly see why they were confident enough in the idea that standards would work in GT5; their issue was that they didn't clean any of them up and it made it extremely jarring. GT6 had a few that received touch ups that made them near enough Premium quality without the interior, though it was a small amount and a weird selection that got the treatment (the 106 Rallye got it for example).

It had nothing to do with confidence and everything to do with the ability to advertise that the game had a giant car list.

 

[INEEDNAWZZZ]

It had nothing to do with confidence and everything to do with the ability to advertise that the game had a giant car list.

Personally I think it was a bit of both. There's also the fact that there was no way with the speed they modelled Premium cars that there'd be a sufficient amount to fill out the game in a timely manner, so someone said 'hey, I have an idea' and voila.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I don’t consider stripping down a game to a bare-bone skeleton of its former self as being bold, but whatever. Remember GTS launched with severe cuts in tracks, cars and lack of proper singleplayer content. And don’t get me started on scapes, that’s just fluff on the side (same as Forzavista in the other camp).

Severe cuts in content? Yes, generational leap in content quality? Can't have both sometimes, how do you think this community which is ravaging Forza Motorsport for reusing Xbox 360 modelling (allegedly) would have reacted if GTS had PS2 era car models and subpar track models on the name of quantity?

As I said, bold doesn't mean good, they completely shifted the focus of Gran Turismo towards structured online play and a focussed car list, call it what you want in terms of content but it was a bold move. and let's not forget, Sport is basically a spin off given it wasn't called GT7..

 

[FordGTGuy]

So something went wrong along the way. Two people building a 3D model from the same reference will still have different looking topology/polygon structure, as someone showed above the ripped 3D models from FM4 and FM7 look identical aside from few elements.

Based on what? LOD systems will have something to say about that. The most efficient polygon method on very similar models is going to be nearly identical; especially with LOD.

Did you honestly expect two models of the same vehicle using the same references to be wildly different?

The keyword here is "looking" by the way.

 

[SimTourist]

Based on what? LOD systems will have something to say about that. The most efficient polygon method on very similar models is going to be nearly identical; especially with LOD.

Did you honestly expect two models of the same vehicle using the same references to be wildly different?

The keyword here is "looking" by the way.

Precisely because it's made by humans and each artist in unique in his expression even when recreating a real world object.

Same car, a recent modelling job, still the result differs because the 3D modeller at Turn 10 interpreted it his way and the artist at polyphony his way. Similar polygons budgets, similar machines to work on, still there's gonna be differences.

 

[UKMikey]

I'm too much of a casual to boycott the entire game until they fix the old car models. It really doesn't bother me that much.

@UKMikey

 

[opelman]

Wow. So much bettet than gt7.

 

[Apple Slipper]

From this whole conversation, I'm kind of the more casual part of the Forza audience. I'm not too fussed about the LOD in car models nor extreme accuracy. The car models were made by Glass Egg (link: https://www.glassegg.com/), which also worked on other racing game franchises, not just Forza.

Out of the info so far, it's just mainly the car list I'm worried about.

 

[Kelpy D]

With IMSA's partnership with T10/Playground being all out right now, I have a good feeling that the car list would have a wider inclusion of IMSA-related things from the past and the present, combined with the SRO Motorsports Group & FIA's WEC.

With the tracks, the Forza Franchise has had almost every IMSA Weathertech Sportscar Championship track, with a few missing ones. These missing tracks may be potentially be one of the five new tracks (well, two actually, since Mid Ohio was featured in the developer_direct).

• Canadian Tire Motorsport Park
• The Raceway on Belle Isle
• Charlotte Motor Speedway

Now, with the cars, we have seen IMSA GTD cars (the CJ Wilson/Gradient Racing NSX GT3 and the C8.R), DPis and the IMSA TCR (Bryan Herta Autosport Hyundai Veloster N TCR), with the devs confirming that there would be more modern racing cars. Here's what I speculate what specific modern IMSA championships would have their cars playable in FM.

• IMSA GS (Equivalent to the SRO GT4 category)
• IMSA GTP (the LMDH version of it, although it could either be dripfed or part of a DLC pack)
• Modern Trans-Am (IMSA and the SCCA launched a partnership in 2021)
• IMSA GTD/GTD Pro (2020s & later, with the Evo variants of past GTD cars)

With classic cars, as far as I remember, the 1991 #15 Ford Mustang IMSA GTO was leaked, along with older Trans-Am/IMSA GT cars, as well as Trans-Am versions of the Plymouth Barracuda and AMC Javelin, marked with Barrett Jackson names.

 

[Moglet]

Look at Playground Games streams if you want to see game developers talking outside their comfort zone. They’re a bit awkward and human, unlike robotic. These Turn 10 guys are playing the corporate act (hence robotic) and they’re just trying too hard.

The Horizon developers don't read from scripts on stream, it's mostly done with guidance but spoken naturally. I think that's what causes the issue in the Motorsport video; you can even see them looking slightly off camera at what I assume is a prompter. I've done stuff like this before and while there has been a rough script to work to I was given the freedom to talk through it naturally rather than reading directly from something.

It's a weird decision to have made for sure but I'm not going to assume that it's because they want to appear corporate.

 

[SloGrumpyDad]

Precisely because it's made by humans and each artist in unique in his expression even when recreating a real world object.

Same car, a recent modelling job, still the result differs because the 3D modeller at Turn 10 interpreted it his way and the artist at polyphony his way. Similar polygons budgets, similar machines to work on, still there's gonna be differences.

Bro, the FM7 example obviously was not garage kept! That's is just what happens when you leave your car outside daily in weather that changes. Duh! :sarcasm:

 

[Auditore]

I find it inevitable all the graphics and asset reuse discussion since both Turn 10 and PD pride themselves on having mindblowing graphics down to the most obscure detail.Like,i remember Pd scanning a car that had a bumper that was slightly bent and that showrd up in the game model,i think it was a 22b.
Forza's presentation kept saying again and again how great the graphics were and how they built everything "from the ground up" (DRINK).
They can't complain people are being to obsessive with details when they show these kinds of shots in the trailer.

 

[INEEDNAWZZZ]

 

[SloGrumpyDad]

Not sure why they keep using the “Ground Up” catch phrase??? FM7 was making things up from the ground up in game already!!!

 

[Auditore]

Not sure why they keep using the “Ground Up” catch phrase??? FM7 was making things up from the ground up in game already!!!
View attachment 1226401

This is adult content sir.

 

[SloGrumpyDad]

This is adult content sir.

Not sure if sarcasm or doesn't understand sarcasm?

 

[Imari]

By no means do I want to defend the cookie cutter copy/pasting of games both T10/PG and PD have been doing the last years, and you made some valid points, but how on earth can you consider GTS a bold step? It’s basically deleting the singleplayer content from the previous itteration and call it Sport.

It was an attempt to throw everything away and make Gran Turismo: iRacing Edition. That included totally stepping away from the single player element that had been the backbone of the franchise up until that point.

You can call it stupid, but you can't say that it wasn't bold.

It was a risk. It took confidence and courage to do. It almost certainly didn't pay off the way that they wanted it to, although arguably it could have gone a lot worse as well.

A lack of that confidence and courage is what leads to games like GT7 - technically excellent and bland as white bread. I'd prefer if FM doesn't do that and they instead have something a little bold and risky with how they make the game, but I'm not seeing it so far.

I don’t consider stripping down a game to a bare-bone skeleton of its former self as being bold, but whatever.

You seem to consider "bold" to imply some sort of positive attributes. It doesn't. Grabbing a lion by the testicles is bold, and profoundly stupid.

This is adult content sir.

When the mommy car and the daddy car love each other very much...

I think that's what causes the issue in the Motorsport video; you can even see them looking slightly off camera at what I assume is a prompter.

There's a shot where you can actually see the prompter and setup. I assume that anything called "autoscript" is going to be some sort of prompter. It's really very highly staged, and I could see that being super uncomfortable if you're not used to it.

 

[juanffy18]

Every Forza presentation just talk about graphics and 4k and RT (i don't know why RT is so important right now)and again and again but what about the physics, a proper career mode a proper Forza M like FM3/FM4.

 

[urmie]

Chris Esaki confirmed a new historic layout (60s) for Laguna Seca which is awesome. I hope more tracks have this. Also he said the car roster will be more Motorsport focused. I hope that doesn't mean less "normal" cars but I guess future DLC packs can fill that in.

 

[tankuroded]

Reposting it here, because I just noticed the GT-One and 905 still has the Exxon logo on them (instead of Esso). But how come GTS/GT7's 2016 NSX GT500 still have the Esso logo on it?

 

[Nacho Libre]

Maybe it will let you modify a street car into a full race car conversion (including a full body/aero kit). PC3 does this already.

 

[Fezzik]

Not sure if anyone watched the Forza Monthly but Chris Esaki confirmed a new historic layout (60s) for Laguna Seca which is awesome. I hope more tracks have this. Also he said the car roster will be more Motorsport focused. I hope that doesn't mean less "normal" cars but I guess future DLC packs can fill that in.

how dare they focus on motorsport cars in a game called Motorsport?!

 

[ICEYOU3]

I find it inevitable all the graphics and asset reuse discussion since both Turn 10 and PD pride themselves on having mindblowing graphics down to the most obscure detail.Like,i remember Pd scanning a car that had a bumper that was slightly bent and that showrd up in the game model,i think it was a 22b.
Forza's presentation kept saying again and again how great the graphics were and how they built everything "from the ground up" (DRINK).
They can't complain people are being to obsessive with details when they show these kinds of shots in the trailer.

That shot is literally insane.

 

[Tornado]

Based on what?

Try drawing something twice.

 

[Stang616]

I think you are losing the thread a bit here. The RC-F looks great in both games you are showing there. I've already said that most of the FM4 and up assets are much improved and that the Xbox One era assets are very good. The RC-F you posted was released with an Xbox-One only FH2 expansion, meaning that it was an Xbox One asset. As a result, it's very good. All I'm asking for is that level of quality, but more importantly, that level of accuracy.

The RC-F looks like crap in GT7 in that shot.