Forza Motorsport General Discussion Thread

  • Thread starter Terronium-12
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Remember this?
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Lots of people still remember that scandal of jank PS2 ports for GT5 and 6. Forza's ports of cars going back now TWO WHOLE CONSOLE GENERATIONS are quickly becoming their equivalent of standard cars.
There's a significant difference between a direct ps2 port and a heavily retouched x360 model.
 
Not if the 360 model looked bad to begin with; and some of the pre-Forza 4 cars easily looked worse than the Standard equivalents no matter how many more polygons were wasted on them as Xbox 360 assets.


















And if the SW20 and 22B shows up in this game unchanged in geometry from before, they will again.
 
Decided to go through the trailer and get some high quality screen grabs

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There's definitely some major rendering/shading problems. Look at the red S7 here compared to its shadow. It seems like they're not applying ambient lighting to some car shadows.

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Here again there's a lack of ambient lighting being applied to car shadows. Perhaps it's distance based for optimization or it's just buggy at the time of the creation of the trailer.

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Lexus GS F as stated earlier in the thread


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Low quality ray trace reflections on the engine here. Definitely for optimization


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It appears the car is merging into the Camaro here?

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This whole crash sequence looked like it was at a much lower render quality compared to the rest of the trailer. I feel like there's some FSR artifacting and ghosting and a bit more aliasing than other scenes.

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Extensive use of motion blur. Also there's a soft tire indicator on the bottom right, similar to those used in the F1 TV broadcasts.

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More problems with shadows and ambient lighting on the E30 and the Sierra.

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Lack of ambient occlusion on the rim here.

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Lack of shadows in the far distance, so this is probably optimized gameplay rather than replay or photomode.

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This shot of Kyalami looks really good

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Some weirdness going on here with motion blur and transparency. The fence is super clear when the car is behind it whereas motion blur is applied to it elsewhere in the frame. In addition, the background behind the window doesn't have any motion blur applied to it. But tbf, transparency is pretty hard to get right

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They discuss global illumination here and it does look really good here. You can see the red from the ground light up the side of the Mission R

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Showcase of the ray tracing here. There's definitely a lot of rays being cast, not only a single bounce seeing as the 991 here doesn't have any reflections in the reflections, but that's to be expected for optimizations. There's also self reflections on the GTR's wing

1674765517841.png


And now the reason why I wanted to do this. In this scene, there's some weirdness happening. I can't tell if the shaders are buggy or if the lighting situation is weird and this is how it's supposed to look. But to me it appears the shaders that are related to transparency are either buggy or completely missing here

1674765569823.png


It makes it seem like the windows, headlights, and grill mesh are completely missing. It just looks really wrong. If it's a bug, then it's really odd that they decided to keep this in the trailer and not re-render it when it was fixed.

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There's a lot going on here. You can see some red global illumination on the ceiling in the environment. There are self reflections on the red car's vents. Then there's something off with the rear end on the XJ220 and silver S7. There's sort of a lack of shadows on the silver S7.

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Nurburgring GP Circuit (Reverse)?

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Overall, there were some really good looking shots in the trailer, but at other times, the game looked really bad. It's really strange that there's such a huge gap in quality. Considering they had said the shaders are "built from the ground up", makes me think much of it is still a work in progress which is likely why they haven't shown much more content and why there's no set release date yet. Although the release date could also be caused by supply chain issues and they're not sure when discs could be printed and such

EDIT:
I want to add that these are freeze frames so you wouldn't be able to notice these imperfections during actual gameplay. And again, since they're targeting 4K 60 FPS, it's likely a lot of visual fidelity will be sacrificed to hit that target, regardless of FSR
 
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Not if the 360 model looked bad to begin with; and some of the pre-Forza 4 cars easily looked worse than the Standard equivalents no matter how many more polygons were wasted on them as Xbox 360 assets.


















And if the SW20 and 22B shows up in this game unchanged in geometry from before, they will again.
At least the GT standard cars were proportionally correct. Low fidelity for sure, but at least they weren't wrong.
 
Decided to go through the trailer and get some high quality screen grabs

View attachment 1225860

View attachment 1225862

There's definitely some major rendering/shading problems. Look at the red S7 here compared to its shadow. It seems like they're not applying ambient lighting to some car shadows.

View attachment 1225863

View attachment 1225864

Here again there's a lack of ambient lighting being applied to car shadows. Perhaps it's distance based for optimization or it's just buggy at the time of the creation of the trailer.

View attachment 1225865

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Lexus GS F as stated earlier in the thread


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Low quality ray trace reflections on the engine here. Definitely for optimization


View attachment 1226029

It appears the car is merging into the Camaro here?

View attachment 1226031

This whole crash sequence looked like it was at a much lower render quality compared to the rest of the trailer. I feel like there's some FSR artifacting and ghosting and a bit more aliasing than other scenes.

View attachment 1226033

Extensive use of motion blur. Also there's a soft tire indicator on the bottom right, similar to those used in the F1 TV broadcasts.

View attachment 1226035

More problems with shadows and ambient lighting on the E30 and the Sierra.

View attachment 1226036

Lack of ambient occlusion on the rim here.

View attachment 1226037

Lack of shadows in the far distance, so this is probably optimized gameplay rather than replay or photomode.

View attachment 1226039

View attachment 1226040

This shot of Kyalami looks really good

View attachment 1226041

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Some weirdness going on here with motion blur and transparency. The fence is super clear when the car is behind it whereas motion blur is applied to it elsewhere in the frame. In addition, the background behind the window doesn't have any motion blur applied to it. But tbf, transparency is pretty hard to get right

View attachment 1226048

View attachment 1226051

View attachment 1226052

They discuss global illumination here and it does look really good here. You can see the red from the ground light up the side of the Mission R

View attachment 1226053

Showcase of the ray tracing here. There's definitely a lot of rays being cast, not only a single bounce seeing as the 991 here doesn't have any reflections in the reflections, but that's to be expected for optimizations. There's also self reflections on the GTR's wing

View attachment 1226055

And now the reason why I wanted to do this. In this scene, there's some weirdness happening. I can't tell if the shaders are buggy or if the lighting situation is weird and this is how it's supposed to look. But to me it appears the shaders that are related to transparency are either buggy or completely missing here

View attachment 1226056

It makes it seem like the windows, headlights, and grill mesh are completely missing. It just looks really wrong. If it's a bug, then it's really odd that they decided to keep this in the trailer and not re-render it when it was fixed.

View attachment 1226058

View attachment 1226060

There's a lot going on here. You can see some red global illumination on the ceiling in the environment. There are self reflections on the red car's vents. Then there's something off with the rear end on the XJ220 and silver S7. There's sort of a lack of shadows on the silver S7.

View attachment 1226062

View attachment 1226065

Nurburgring GP Circuit (Reverse)?

View attachment 1226067


Overall, there were some really good looking shots in the trailer, but at other times, the game looked really bad. It's really strange that there's such a huge gap in quality. Considering they had said the shaders are "built from the ground up", makes me think much of it is still a work in progress which is likely why they haven't shown much more content and why there's no set release date yet. Although the release date could also be caused by supply chain issues and they're not sure when discs could be printed and such

EDIT:
I want to add that these are freeze frames so you wouldn't be able to notice these imperfections during actual gameplay. And again, since they're targeting 4K 60 FPS, it's likely a lot of visual fidelity will be sacrificed to hit that target, regardless of FSR
Guess all of these may explain for the delay, and understandably so too. Hopefully these imperfections will get ironed out in the "coming months". Also, finally a post regarding something that isn't about the freakin' x360 era cars. I'm tired of hearing about that...
 
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I don't own an xbox so won't be playing this but always good to have strong competition to make all games better in the long run.

At the end of the day it will probably be the same old forza with better graphics which is great for forza lovers and sucks for people who want a change.

Also i have never understood the massive deal with Ray tracing, I have to look really hard to notice it and it's a killer on performance.
 
Game getting ripped too shreds before it is even out :)
I mean, it isn't Forza without that. Lol! :P :lol:
Didnt they have no interiors?
No no no man you're not understanding. The standard cars looked "accurate" to there irl counterparts. It doesn't matter if they were direct PS2 ports. It doesn't matter if they lacked interiors and good sounds. What matters is they are better than Forza inaccurate cars because they're 'accurate'. :sly:
 
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The "we" you are referring to is definitely just the vocal minority. As i said before, car models won't and shouldn't be among the top priorities of FM. GAMEPLAY is king, whether that is racing itself or online mode or career or just plain free play. Having more cars and more tracks will always lead to more players and more "fun". Hell most don't even notice that GT7 uses a much lower LOD model during gameplay and only uses its best in scapes.

Too bad we know more details about the graphics than anything gameplay related so far. After today’s Forza Monthly, it’s clear what’s being prioritized right now.
 
Too bad we know more details about the graphics than anything gameplay related so far. After today’s Forza Monthly, it’s clear what’s being prioritized right now.
I might have missed some, but apart from the car and track list, here's the info given out:


All tracks will have full dynamic time of day and weather. Changes in the time of day will affect ambient temperatures, which in turn will directly affect track surface temperatures. Tire grip will also be affected by these changes, as well as rubbering in, and weather changes.

Featuring a completely overhauled physics engine with 48 times the fidelity of its predecessors, this may be the most realistic Forza yet. That starts with the tires, which now have eight points of contact for physics calculations, rather than just one, and are updated 360 times a second.

Based on fan feedback, FM is also set to feature tire and fuel management, new “in-depth” car building, as well as multiple tire compounds. The latter isn’t specifically new to the franchise and is more of a returning feature, as it was last seen in Forza Motorsport 2 back in 2007. With various compounds, players are forced to take such variables as tire life, grip, and responsiveness into consideration.

Another area of improvement of which players will likely already be aware is the “super realistic” new suspension model. That’s set to simulate some rather complex aspects of suspension movement, including roll center, squat, dive, and dynamic force propagation.

The upcoming game also features new damage simulation and is reproduced “down to the individual scratches on the bodywork”. This includes the directionality of the damage and how the paint peels away at the exposed and raised edges, wheel abrasions, as well as dirt buildup.

Ray tracing looks to be a key feature of the new FM as well, bringing out incredible details such as those in engine bays, which have complex self-reflection. As Greenawalt highlighted earlier, ray tracing will also feature in the game “on track”, which seems to mean during gameplay and not specific cutscenes or replays.

While FH5 features ray tracing only in Forzavista mode, full-on-track ray tracing in FM should make the game feel and look more realistic than it ever has. Cars will reflect onto other cars, in their mirrors, as well as the bodywork, brake rotors, and wings, all in real-time.

According to the game’s official site, FM will run at 4K resolution and 60fps on Xbox Series X — though the console is capable of 120fps — with Series S capped at 1080p and 60fps. There’s no mention of resolution and frame rates for PC.

From: https://forza.net/news/forza-year-in-review-2021

You’ve asked for deeper, more authentic multiplayer racing, and we set out to make that a reality in this new Forza Motorsport with a focus on growing skills and building communities. The structure of what we’ve been testing with the community is essentially a race weekend, featuring Open Practice, Qualifying, and a Featured Race with a calendar of both active and upcoming events taking place around the world.

What happens on the track with our testers is some of the best feedback we can get and that’s why we’ve had community organizers such as TORA involved. With all the changes to tire compounds, tire wear, and fuel, we’re also doubling down on endurance racing. In our last playtest, we had an Open Practice and Qualifying event up for hours. Players could practice and qualify when it is most convenient for them, then leave and return for the main event.

This new approach to endurance racing provides us with unique scenarios to experiment with. For example, we can create qualifiers during the week and host the Featured Race on the weekend, or qualify during the day and race at night.

We also want to help players unlock their fastest selves through a new corner mastery system in Open Practice. It’s designed to better focus your practice sessions on the real tricky areas of the track like double apexes – we consider those your “enemies.” We’re shaping this corner mastery system into something more social and connected that goes beyond simple per-track leaderboards and instead creates an experience where players compete and compare corner scores in real-time.


(I recommend watching the whole thing)
From:

They do say that they have updated the way that the AI works, and that has resulted in AI being as fast as the Forza RC players without the need to rubberband.

They have also said on older Forza Monthly streams that Forza Race Regulations will be fully implemented for online races and that Experimental Drag will also be a full-fledged feature for the new Forza Motorsport.

(Drag racing)


(FRR)


Also to add is the "Car building" based single-player career mode
 
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Didnt they have no interiors?
Yeah, I'm not gonna defend PD on the standards. That was a poor and/or cynical decision. I'm just saying that I would rather have an accurate car body that is low fidelity than an inaccurate body that is high fidelity. I mean the goal is accurate and high fidelity, just to be clear. :lol:
 
The trailer showed basicly nothing new, campared to the last one. No gameplay is really concerning. And it looks like we are still stuck with that basic forza aero and forza wing since fm3, thats really a shame. Tracks looks very good. But many of cars dosent look that much updated since fm7 and that would mean the still use some cars from 360 era thats dissapointing, car models overall looks more realistic in gt7 but forza motorsport have the advantage In terms of track detail. But this info didint blow me away. Not yet excited for it they really need to show more. So far i am not impressed
 
I might have missed some, but apart from the car and track list, here's the info given out:


All tracks will have full dynamic time of day and weather. Changes in the time of day will affect ambient temperatures, which in turn will directly affect track surface temperatures. Tire grip will also be affected by these changes, as well as rubbering in, and weather changes.

Featuring a completely overhauled physics engine with 48 times the fidelity of its predecessors, this may be the most realistic Forza yet. That starts with the tires, which now have eight points of contact for physics calculations, rather than just one, and are updated 360 times a second.

Based on fan feedback, FM is also set to feature tire and fuel management, new “in-depth” car building, as well as multiple tire compounds. The latter isn’t specifically new to the franchise and is more of a returning feature, as it was last seen in Forza Motorsport 2 back in 2007. With various compounds, players are forced to take such variables as tire life, grip, and responsiveness into consideration.

Another area of improvement of which players will likely already be aware is the “super realistic” new suspension model. That’s set to simulate some rather complex aspects of suspension movement, including roll center, squat, dive, and dynamic force propagation.

The upcoming game also features new damage simulation and is reproduced “down to the individual scratches on the bodywork”. This includes the directionality of the damage and how the paint peels away at the exposed and raised edges, wheel abrasions, as well as dirt buildup.

Ray tracing looks to be a key feature of the new FM as well, bringing out incredible details such as those in engine bays, which have complex self-reflection. As Greenawalt highlighted earlier, ray tracing will also feature in the game “on track”, which seems to mean during gameplay and not specific cutscenes or replays.

While FH5 features ray tracing only in Forzavista mode, full-on-track ray tracing in FM should make the game feel and look more realistic than it ever has. Cars will reflect onto other cars, in their mirrors, as well as the bodywork, brake rotors, and wings, all in real-time.

According to the game’s official site, FM will run at 4K resolution and 60fps on Xbox Series X — though the console is capable of 120fps — with Series S capped at 1080p and 60fps. There’s no mention of resolution and frame rates for PC.

From: https://forza.net/news/forza-year-in-review-2021

You’ve asked for deeper, more authentic multiplayer racing, and we set out to make that a reality in this new Forza Motorsport with a focus on growing skills and building communities. The structure of what we’ve been testing with the community is essentially a race weekend, featuring Open Practice, Qualifying, and a Featured Race with a calendar of both active and upcoming events taking place around the world.

What happens on the track with our testers is some of the best feedback we can get and that’s why we’ve had community organizers such as TORA involved. With all the changes to tire compounds, tire wear, and fuel, we’re also doubling down on endurance racing. In our last playtest, we had an Open Practice and Qualifying event up for hours. Players could practice and qualify when it is most convenient for them, then leave and return for the main event.

This new approach to endurance racing provides us with unique scenarios to experiment with. For example, we can create qualifiers during the week and host the Featured Race on the weekend, or qualify during the day and race at night.

We also want to help players unlock their fastest selves through a new corner mastery system in Open Practice. It’s designed to better focus your practice sessions on the real tricky areas of the track like double apexes – we consider those your “enemies.” We’re shaping this corner mastery system into something more social and connected that goes beyond simple per-track leaderboards and instead creates an experience where players compete and compare corner scores in real-time.


(I recommend watching the whole thing)
From:

They do say that they have updated the way that the AI works, and that has resulted in AI being as fast as the Forza RC players without the need to rubberband.

They have also said on older Forza Monthly streams that Forza Race Regulations will be fully implemented for online races and that Experimental Drag will also be a full-fledged feature for the new Forza Motorsport.

(Drag racing)


(FRR)


Also to add is the "Car building" based single-player career mode

All that stuff about neural networks etc. - haven't we been here before? Ten years ago the buzzword was 'the power of the cloud' would revolutionise Forza's AI. The AI remains terrible throughout every iteration of Forza to this day and the 'power of the cloud' nonsense was quietly dropped.


Maybe it's different this time and their promises will amount to something?
 
Not if the 360 model looked bad to begin with; and some of the pre-Forza 4 cars easily looked worse than the Standard equivalents no matter how many more polygons were wasted on them as Xbox 360 assets.


















And if the SW20 and 22B shows up in this game unchanged in geometry from before, they will again.
A X360 car model in FH5 vs GT7, Just to show you guys how exaggerating all of you act about those soo called "360 standard looking cars" im gonna show the car model in game on Forza vs photomode in GT7 (which has a higher quality lod compared to the gameplay model). GT7 has the best models right now, but outside the paint editor and the scape mode (which is just the car photoshoped on a 2d image) they are never used or you can never inspect them properly. Atleast the high quality models and the less accurate models use the high quality lod in game. I wish T10 could match the small details and interiors like PD scape models so we could see them in real time and inspect them properly. But they can't and they have atleast created very good looking cars (most of them outside those ugly models obv.) that we are playing with in game which is higher quality than any other game outside ACC.

FH5 in game
Forza-Horizon-5-26-01-2023-19-53-53.jpg


GT7 Photomode
Gran-Turismo-7-20230126200848.png


FH5 in game

Forza-Horizon-5-26-01-2023-19-49-24.jpg


GT7 Photomode
Gran-Turismo-7-20230126201248.png


And in game the model in GT7 is even worse
Gran-Turismo-7-20230126200601.png

vs

Forza-Horizon-5-26-01-2023-19-52-13.jpg


I mean just look at this
Forza-Horizon-5-23-12-2021-4-18-31.jpg


I don't also like those ugly models and hope that they will fix them, but some of you guys act like most cars from the 360 era in Forza look like that. You guys are crazy if you think that its anywhere close to the standard/premium car situation like in GT5.
 
All that stuff about neural networks etc. - haven't we been here before? Ten years ago the buzzword was 'the power of the cloud' would revolutionise Forza's AI. The AI remains terrible throughout every iteration of Forza to this day and the 'power of the cloud' nonsense was quietly dropped.


Maybe it's different this time and their promises will amount to something?
In the video, he says that they had a hard time with the cloud and neural netword stuff, because it ended up giving unwanted behaviors which they had to nerf the learned behaviors. They did it to the point where it was basically a glorified basic AI.
 
Yeah, I'm not gonna defend PD on the standards. That was a poor and/or cynical decision. I'm just saying that I would rather have an accurate car body that is low fidelity than an inaccurate body that is high fidelity. I mean the goal is accurate and high fidelity, just to be clear. :lol:

I'm totally the opposite. If we're talking having an accurate car that looks like the Alto from GT5 or a slightly inaccurate car that looks like FM8s E30, I know which bed om sleeping in.
 
I feel that what worries me right now about Forza Motorsport is about the 500 cars in the car list. I like that they are adding more racecars, but I fear that car variety will be affected with much less trucks and SUVs...

That's what I personally think and feel though.
 
I'm totally the opposite. If we're talking having an accurate car that looks like the Alto from GT5 or a slightly inaccurate car that looks like FM8s E30, I know which bed om sleeping in.
Well it's beside the point, ultimately. This shouldn't be a comparison to GT, let alone a release from PD a decade ago, (somebody else brought up the standard cars) it should be what T10 is producing in and of itself, here and now. Removing the the comparison, I think there are 3 opinions I'm seeing here:

1. What are you talking about? The assets aren't old! -This one I think is the least defensible position to have because it's abundantly clear that they are old and many of them are pretty poor.
2. Yeah, some of the assets aren't great but they are good enough. -This is a reasonable position but, in my opinion, it lets T10/MS off the hook/allows them to keep putting X360 era assets in their newest titles indefinitely. If you recognize that the assets are substandard, wouldn't that bother you? Or in the very least, would you at least find it reasonable that others are bothered by it? I mean, you are paying money for this.
3. Many of the old assets are simply not good enough considering how much hype the devs have placed around visuals -This is where I'm at. I don't think its acceptable to have 2-gen old assets in a Tier 1 release and then go parroting around that your product is built from the ground up and has the most amazing visuals ever (I'm paraphrasing here). If they just released the game without the ridiculous amount of hype they are trying to inject into it, I probably wouldn't be too fussed, honestly. It's the disingenuousness of it all.

But go ahead and give them more of your money. They're not getting mine.
 
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A X360 car model in FH5 vs GT7, Just to show you guys how exaggerating all of you act about those soo called "360 standard looking cars" im gonna show the car model in game on Forza vs photomode in GT7 (which has a higher quality lod compared to the gameplay model). GT7 has the best models right now, but outside the paint editor and the scape mode (which is just the car photoshoped on a 2d image) they are never used or you can never inspect them properly. Atleast the high quality models and the less accurate models use the high quality lod in game. I wish T10 could match the small details and interiors like PD scape models so we could see them in real time and inspect them properly. But they can't and they have atleast created very good looking cars (most of them outside those ugly models obv.) that we are playing with in game which is higher quality than any other game outside ACC.

FH5 in game
Forza-Horizon-5-26-01-2023-19-53-53.jpg


GT7 Photomode
Gran-Turismo-7-20230126200848.png


FH5 in game

Forza-Horizon-5-26-01-2023-19-49-24.jpg


GT7 Photomode
Gran-Turismo-7-20230126201248.png


And in game the model in GT7 is even worse
Gran-Turismo-7-20230126200601.png

vs

Forza-Horizon-5-26-01-2023-19-52-13.jpg


I mean just look at this
Forza-Horizon-5-23-12-2021-4-18-31.jpg


I don't also like those ugly models and hope that they will fix them, but some of you guys act like most cars from the 360 era in Forza look like that. You guys are crazy if you think that its anywhere close to the standard/premium car situation like in GT5.
There's definitely examples of older models holding up, though if I'm not mistaken I believe this car was created for FM4's Autovista, meaning it was already created around Xbox One standards as FM4's few Autovista cars were higher quality than the rest. Still, my main issue is with the even older models that are recycled to this day. When I compare the oldest to Gran Turismo's standard cars, it's the ones that are carried over from the original Xbox, and I do mention that they've been upscaled and worked on since. They're still disproportionate and lower quality. Other than that, only finer details that would've been overlooked in a 360 era model are likely an issue, but they still stand out against the excellent modern models, especially in the lights.
 
There's a significant difference between a direct ps2 port and a heavily retouched x360 model.
I wouldn't call them heavily retouched x360 models.

For example, let's compare 3d-model of Porshce 911 from FM4 (2011) to FH5 (2021):


Exterior wireframe mostly identical


Dashboard and steering wheel wireframe identical, doors are retouched for Forzavista

So the materials and textures may be updaded, but the 3d-models are old, or at best slightly modified from old 3d-models.

FH5 uses the same car models as FM7. And at this moment it seems that the new FM8 uses same old 3d-models as FM7/FH5 = those x360 era models.
 
I'm too much of a casual to boycott the entire game until they fix the old car models. It really doesn't bother me that much.
Literally every time a new Forza releases people go on about it till they are blue in the face.

No it is not the same Xbox 360 models.

They have already made clear before that the models are built from the same or similar source material and likely by the same contractors. Therefore you are going to see a lot of the same mistakes being made over and over due to the source material that they use.
 

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