Forza Motorsport General Discussion Thread

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Asking this here as this forum seems to be able to review the game without the fanboy effect, with the state of the game as it is now, would you guys recommend it at 50% off? I played it on launch via GamePass and was incredibly disappointed to the point I uninstalled it, cancelled my GamePass I'd had for a few years and didn't look at it again.

Sounds dramatic but I was plagued with the career progression bug every race which drove me nuts, I've played since the first Motorsport dropped and was blown away at how much they screwed it up. I see its had quite a few positive updates, I don't really play online, I have the most fun hotlapping at Nurburgring which I do on GT7 but I'm tempted to pick this up as I see the track is now out on there.

As far as I can work out the A.I is still emulating a bunch of 12 year olds so I know to stay away from Single Player career at least.
I can give you a non fanboy review no problem. I've been seriously critical of this game and got my fair share of wonderful poo reacts from the wonderful fanboys in this very thread. It was, well, wonderful.
FM has come a long way from release. Surprisingly enough, FM can be a good time. Some of it's strengths are it's physics and FFB (when you finally figure out the settings). The AI can be great and horrible all in the same race. When they are bunched they exhibit bad behavior and when they are spread out they can be great to race against. I've had them go side by side with me for almost full laps. I've also passed them and they just slow down and give up. I don't understand why but Turn 10 need to fix that.

Overall, once you get the game, you have it. 🤷‍♀️ You get the updates. You get to play for the FOMO cars. You get to have fun and you get to formally complain about the game because you now have it. :) If you're waiting for it to get cheaper than whatever but there is fun to be had in FM.
 
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With almost 500 hours accrued in single player (0.0 minutes in multiplayer) I've witnessed the steady progress of the game until today, and my feelings have gone from being somewhat disappointed to be encouraged because many of the issues raised by player's feedback have been addressed over time, and gameplay and presentation have undoubtedly improved.

That being said, the AI is still one major area that needs either more improvement or be ditched altogether for the old Drivatar model (if that would be possible) which peaked in FM6.

Overall, I feel the game lacks a signature style, which the games led by Dan Greenawalt had to some degree. FM4 had a clear theme and association with Top Gear that was fitting, and FM6 had a rather elegant presentation that IMO is the best so far. I've grown tired of the home space/studio-garage and the dull, grey nether-space, and that is not what was teased so many years ago, and yes, a different/more original approach to the single player campaign is sorely needed, as well as a less impersonal approach to the cars themselves.

Lastly, on the graphics/performance on consoles and PC, the PC is the platform that is closest to what was promised (but heck, its expensive to get there and you have to tweak stuff). I just hope the game has not peaked in that respect.

I hope Turn 10 provides more clarity in their road map for year 2 of the game, which is getting closer.
 
Thanks guys, was looking for some honest takes and to see if the overall state of the game had improved, might grab it on sale and stick to hotlapping rivals on the Ring. I'll probably avoid single player unless I feel like playing Forza:Wreckfest or they make some meaningful updates on the behaviour.
 
Homologation was the game's best feature.

The "hate" came from the fact there were no open class events or lobbies at launch.
Plus the fact that any given car had only 1 class (or whatever one would call it) available to it and often as not it meant detuning the car to get in in there with no build options to speak of. As many other features of modern Forza, it was as half-assed as possible.
 
Thanks guys, was looking for some honest takes and to see if the overall state of the game had improved, might grab it on sale and stick to hotlapping rivals on the Ring. I'll probably avoid single player unless I feel like playing Forza:Wreckfest or they make some meaningful updates on the behaviour.
I only play single player career. My complaint isn't so much about the AI behaviour which I don't find gamebreaking but that there's not enough of it. Races appear and disappear and the whole thing feels a bit bare bones and skeletal.
 
Thanks guys, was looking for some honest takes and to see if the overall state of the game had improved, might grab it on sale and stick to hotlapping rivals on the Ring. I'll probably avoid single player unless I feel like playing Forza:Wreckfest or they make some meaningful updates on the behaviour.
I would not call it a wreckfest, since there has been improvement in that area. The AI has clear tendencies that you can exploit, and the new onscreen radar helps quite a lot. If you really don't have the patience, you can select a starting position at the top of the field, dispose quickly of the leading cars and carry on.
 
I'll take a paid car pack at this point.
I'm not sure how that would go over right now. Putting out paid DLC while the game is still buggy (and getting new bugs) and missing old features and stuff likely wouldn't be received that well... Although if they made sure to get highly requested vehicles in them that would probably help their reception significantly. They have been so slow with new/returning content lately though, it has created a bit of a demand for new stuff so maybe people are so hungry for new content that no one would care that the game still isn't where it should be.

Personally, I'm enjoying the game despite also being quite frustrated with it in many ways, and assuming the car pack has good stuff in it, I could pretty easily justify the $5 or whatever for them.
 
I'm not sure how that would go over right now. Putting out paid DLC while the game is still buggy (and getting new bugs) and missing old features and stuff likely wouldn't be received that well... Although if they made sure to get highly requested vehicles in them that would probably help their reception significantly. They have been so slow with new/returning content lately though, it has created a bit of a demand for new stuff so maybe people are so hungry for new content that no one would care that the game still isn't where it should be.

Personally, I'm enjoying the game despite also being quite frustrated with it in many ways, and assuming the car pack has good stuff in it, I could pretty easily justify the $5 or whatever for them.
For me and probably some others the demand is coming from the fact that other racing games particularly sims, have been adding some excellent race cars through their own DLC. Games like iRacing, LMU, ACC, AMS2 and even GT7 adding newer hypercars, GT3 cars, historic racing series like Indycars, F1 and touring cars and for a company like T10 who's had some great racing cars in past games now comes the question, where the hell are those cars? Lol. I get licensing these days seems very difficult and at times competitive with these bigger companies that specifically seek racing cars, I'm just itching and waiting for the day they add some more in FM too ( more than 1-2 at a time). The DLC we had months back with several GT3, TCR and Trans Am cars and the couple of reward cars so far ( R88C, chevron, '74 911 RSR and of course the 963) is a great indication of what T10 can do, so let's see.
 
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I'm not sure how that would go over right now. Putting out paid DLC while the game is still buggy (and getting new bugs) and missing old features and stuff likely wouldn't be received that well... Although if they made sure to get highly requested vehicles in them that would probably help their reception significantly. They have been so slow with new/returning content lately though, it has created a bit of a demand for new stuff so maybe people are so hungry for new content that no one would care that the game still isn't where it should be.

Personally, I'm enjoying the game despite also being quite frustrated with it in many ways, and assuming the car pack has good stuff in it, I could pretty easily justify the $5 or whatever for them.
I like how it was handled for the Porsche 963.

Free for the first week, so the core fans could get it, but then paid after that.
 
Forza isn't there yet, it's improving for sure, but these is still serious issues, my main gripe is the carrer system and the FOMO that is pointless, the menus that are too complicated, to much validation is needed to start a race or restart a race

The built from the ground up is a joke, cars from FM1 are there almost unchanged

Despite theses problems, I like the physics and the customization options, but this game lacks identity and polish
 
Forza isn't there yet, it's improving for sure, but these is still serious issues, my main gripe is the carrer system and the FOMO that is pointless, the menus that are too complicated, to much validation is needed to start a race or restart a race

The built from the ground up is a joke, cars from FM1 are there almost unchanged

Despite theses problems, I like the physics and the customization options, but this game lacks identity and polish
Viewing your car is harder than it needs to be - for me at least. So I need to go back.. wait there's a view car button.. where's the view car button?
 
Viewing your car is harder than it needs to be - for me at least. So I need to go back.. wait there's a view car button.. where's the view car button?
Forza Motorsport 7_29_2024 12_11_40 PM.png

Right there?

As for getting into a race, say in free play, it may take about 7-8 button presses (I'm not counting the crossbar/joystick motions up and down the menu) to get into one. Maybe a one button random race/car/track/conditions would be nice.

As for restarting a race it takes about 3 button presses (pause, scroll to restart race, press A).
 
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Forza isn't there yet, it's improving for sure, but these is still serious issues, my main gripe is the carrer system and the FOMO that is pointless, the menus that are too complicated, to much validation is needed to start a race or restart a race

The built from the ground up is a joke, cars from FM1 are there almost unchanged

Despite theses problems, I like the physics and the customization options, but this game lacks identity and polish
I'm enjoying the game, but you're right in that it lacks an identity for sure.
Aside from that, there's still a couple of minor things that bug me:
  • When looking at my owned cars (or cars on sale for that matter), there's no quick way to see what category the vehicle belongs to.
  • Scrolling through cars. Why can't the menu wrap around? If I'm at Volkswagen and want to see an Alfa Romeo, why do I have to go back to the beginning? Why can't I just keep scrolling forward a bit more?
 
View attachment 1376576
Right there?

As for getting into a race, say in free play, it may take about 7-8 button presses (I'm not counting the crossbar/joystick motions up and down the menu) to get into one. Maybe a one button random race/car/track/conditions would be nice.

As for restarting a race it takes about 3 button presses (pause, scroll to restart race, press A).
But it's not there when you add a livery to your car and want to check it out. You have to go back and then it's a menu option.
Not that it's a major issue for me, I just want more tracks.
 
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View attachment 1376576
Right there?

As for getting into a race, say in free play, it may take about 7-8 button presses (I'm not counting the crossbar/joystick motions up and down the menu) to get into one. Maybe a one button random race/car/track/conditions would be nice.

As for restarting a race it takes about 3 button presses (pause, scroll to restart race, press A).
For restart yes 3 button to launch the restart and then you have go go thought the stand animation and pre race menu again...
 
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The ruleset keeps resetting to Club Rules after each race in Free Play. Am I the only one having this problem? :confused:
It happens to me too. But here's the thing, it only happens when you enter the event menu. If you keep rolling with the tracks they give you, I believe it stays the same. Even in your first race that you create, if you go back into the event setup, it will reset this. The track grip level resets to 50 as well. I tested this by just accepting the next track they gave me and ran into a wall. The damage was still switched on.
They need to fix this.
 
I'm a bit out of the loop after being away, catching up on this new update 10. Open races now cut practice short after 2 laps, no timed session after. That's expected behavior?

Also did we ever get "phase 2" of this update?
 
I'm a bit out of the loop after being away, catching up on this new update 10. Open races now cut practice short after 2 laps, no timed session after. That's expected behavior?

Also did we ever get "phase 2" of this update?

Changes to timing were supposed to help getting into races faster, but I feel it's created smaller lobbies, I reckon they should have left the race schedule the way it was (or maybe a smaller tweak) but let you get into a race with less practice time.

Phase 2 of the update was resolved, so they released all changes at the same time, the radar and other fixes were supposed to be separate but they fixed whatever problem the update had so released it all at once.

I like how it was handled for the Porsche 963.

Free for the first week, so the core fans could get it, but then paid after that.

Agreed, happy if they do this for similar cars, but I reckon they should avoid this for cars in GT2/3 and touring classes, no need to create more angst or "pay-to-win" cars in the mainstay spec series.

Yes indeed bro. Me too

The weekly series have crept up on me, just noticed last night that there is only a single series left, starting in a couple days, which I guess means early next week we can expect a content update? @RolexGTP you're normally the one with the accurate time-frame's, does that fit in?
I believe we are expecting a new track this time, if I was a betting man I would put some money on Road Atlanta, but my heart is still hoping for Bathurst (c'mon!! at least arrive before the great race in October)
 
Changes to timing were supposed to help getting into races faster, but I feel it's created smaller lobbies, I reckon they should have left the race schedule the way it was (or maybe a smaller tweak) but let you get into a race with less practice time.

Phase 2 of the update was resolved, so they released all changes at the same time, the radar and other fixes were supposed to be separate but they fixed whatever problem the update had so released it all at once.



Agreed, happy if they do this for similar cars, but I reckon they should avoid this for cars in GT2/3 and touring classes, no need to create more angst or "pay-to-win" cars in the mainstay spec series.



The weekly series have crept up on me, just noticed last night that there is only a single series left, starting in a couple days, which I guess means early next week we can expect a content update? @RolexGTP you're normally the one with the accurate time-frame's, does that fit in?
I believe we are expecting a new track this time, if I was a betting man I would put some money on Road Atlanta, but my heart is still hoping for Bathurst (c'mon!! at least arrive before the great race in October)
If I recall correctly, this update is another of those 5 week ones with a "dead week" at the end?
 
Changes to timing were supposed to help getting into races faster, but I feel it's created smaller lobbies, I reckon they should have left the race schedule the way it was (or maybe a smaller tweak) but let you get into a race with less practice time.
I reported an issue regarding this. There is now not enough time between races to properly daisy-chain them.

 
Changes to timing were supposed to help getting into races faster, but I feel it's created smaller lobbies, I reckon they should have left the race schedule the way it was (or maybe a smaller tweak) but let you get into a race with less practice time.

Phase 2 of the update was resolved, so they released all changes at the same time, the radar and other fixes were supposed to be separate but they fixed whatever problem the update had so released it all at once.



Agreed, happy if they do this for similar cars, but I reckon they should avoid this for cars in GT2/3 and touring classes, no need to create more angst or "pay-to-win" cars in the mainstay spec series.



The weekly series have crept up on me, just noticed last night that there is only a single series left, starting in a couple days, which I guess means early next week we can expect a content update? @RolexGTP you're normally the one with the accurate time-frame's, does that fit in?
I believe we are expecting a new track this time, if I was a betting man I would put some money on Road Atlanta, but my heart is still hoping for Bathurst (c'mon!! at least arrive before the great race in October)
I believe sirjim73 is correct, this update might be a 5 week one which sucks a little. But at the same time I wouldn't rule out T10 sneaking either a snippet, thumbnail or teaser of some kind early next week just to get the hype somewhat rolling. Or they might just say screw it and release update 11 next week sometime anyway, T10 can be very unpredictable at times 😐. As for tracks this time around I honestly have no idea although Road Atlanta does make sense but so does Bathurst, COTA, and Sonoma. I'll take any of them right now
 
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With almost 500 hours accrued in single player (0.0 minutes in multiplayer) I've witnessed the steady progress of the game until today, and my feelings have gone from being somewhat disappointed to be encouraged because many of the issues raised by player's feedback have been addressed over time, and gameplay and presentation have undoubtedly improved.

That being said, the AI is still one major area that needs either more improvement or be ditched altogether for the old Drivatar model (if that would be possible) which peaked in FM6.

Overall, I feel the game lacks a signature style, which the games led by Dan Greenawalt had to some degree. FM4 had a clear theme and association with Top Gear that was fitting, and FM6 had a rather elegant presentation that IMO is the best so far. I've grown tired of the home space/studio-garage and the dull, grey nether-space, and that is not what was teased so many years ago, and yes, a different/more original approach to the single player campaign is sorely needed, as well as a less impersonal approach to the cars themselves.

Lastly, on the graphics/performance on consoles and PC, the PC is the platform that is closest to what was promised (but heck, its expensive to get there and you have to tweak stuff). I just hope the game has not peaked in that respect.

I hope Turn 10 provides more clarity in their road map for year 2 of the game, which is getting closer.
This is one of the game's many issues. It feels like somebody sloppily slapped everything together in a half hearted way. There seems to be a lack of direction or strategy for sure.

FM 4, 5 and 6, even 7 felt incredibly well grounded, you wanted to play it over and over again.

With this game, as good as the physics are, I can't seem to want to play it for more than a few mins. The car modelling issues are unbelievable (from the ground up my rear), as are the poor quality or plain wrong car sounds (best sounding Forza my rear), or the graphical niggles which they still haven't addressed.

It just feels like a chore to play the game. The developers seem to be taking little to no responsibility on the official forum, closing down complaint threads and outright banning people, which clearly shows their insecurities and lack of interest.

Forza should have been a game developed by Polyphony!!!

Don't even get me started on the FOMO nonsense. Whoever came up with the idea of closing down career events after a set time and people losing out on the car as a result has to be a monkey on crack, bet he/she wasn't even human or a "car person".

Besides, nearly all the FOMO cars come out sounding wrong, despite multiple complaints. I think it's a dwindling team with just 5 or 6 people left who don't know how to undo the mess they've created. Game should have been released sometime in 2025 and with NO interference from Microsoft.

Dan Greenawalt - you the man!
Chris Esaki is a con artist.
 
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Overall, I feel the game lacks a signature style, which the games led by Dan Greenawalt had to some degree. FM4 had a clear theme and association with Top Gear that was fitting, and FM6 had a rather elegant presentation that IMO is the best so far. I've grown tired of the home space/studio-garage and the dull, grey nether-space, and that is not what was teased so many years ago, and yes, a different/more original approach to the single player campaign is sorely needed, as well as a less impersonal approach to the cars themselves.
The worst part about this is that the closed beta in 2021/22 had this:
1722317668338.png

It was apparently a fully walkable garage in first person, with 3 cars, all in seamless forzavista. You could walk up to any of them and change livery/change displayed car. They were also testing some sort of shared livery system.
Then there was a paint shop on the other side. and the stairs lead to a race room where you could start races.

It was scrapped for a simpler 2d menu.
It absolutely ticks me off that such an operational system was completely nuked for the one we have now.

I hope they add the beta concept back as a full finished feature. This game needs a v2/Spec 2.0. It should contain:
  • I know it would just be nostalgia bait, but i want the homespaces from FM4 - FM7 to be alterative options for FM. They should have the assets for all of them, and it should just be textures that need updates. FM7 was made with 4k in mind anyway, so it should be the closest to a direct port. All of them had different feels and weren't generic at all, plus they are all big enough to house atleast 3 cars.
  • All the FOMO races as permanent additions (with custom length sliders) plus all future races to be added as permanent additions.
  • All car upgrades that are missing from FH (4-10 speed transmissions, track width, tire profile, anti lag w/ launch control etc.) New forza aero (for all cars).
  • Photomode with FH features (and an option to apply max RT when rendering a picture like Cyberpunk).
  • Updated livery system, with painting of glass and carbon + more material types. integrated into a share code based Creative hub.
  • FOMO cars added to dealership (maybe for an elevated price) after the corresponding series is over. All suitable cars from FH5 to be added to the dealership as well. Maintain parity with FH.
  • All real tracks from FM7. Plus 3/4 new tracks.
  • Open/Drift/Trackday lobbies. AI in private multiplayer. Share code based custom lobbies.
  • Full drag and Drift modes.
  • Graphical overhaul. I dont care if they have to take a sponsorship or whatever from AMD or better yet Nvidia, to overhaul the RT system and optimize it as much as possible. DLSS/FSR3 should be mandatory.
  • Ai updates. FRR improvements.
  • Audio rework, add more variety to repeating sounds like blowoffs gear whine etc.
There's more like replays and free play settings and whatnot. But all this would be a great(for me) v2/spec2 for the game.
 
The worst part about this is that the closed beta in 2021/22 had this:
View attachment 1376699
It was apparently a fully walkable garage in first person, with 3 cars, all in seamless forzavista. You could walk up to any of them and change livery/change displayed car. They were also testing some sort of shared livery system.
Then there was a paint shop on the other side. and the stairs lead to a race room where you could start races.

It was scrapped for a simpler 2d menu.
It absolutely ticks me off that such an operational system was completely nuked for the one we have now.

I hope they add the beta concept back as a full finished feature. This game needs a v2/Spec 2.0. It should contain:
  • I know it would just be nostalgia bait, but i want the homespaces from FM4 - FM7 to be alterative options for FM. They should have the assets for all of them, and it should just be textures that need updates. FM7 was made with 4k in mind anyway, so it should be the closest to a direct port. All of them had different feels and weren't generic at all, plus they are all big enough to house atleast 3 cars.
  • All the FOMO races as permanent additions (with custom length sliders) plus all future races to be added as permanent additions.
  • All car upgrades that are missing from FH (4-10 speed transmissions, track width, tire profile, anti lag w/ launch control etc.) New forza aero (for all cars).
  • Photomode with FH features (and an option to apply max RT when rendering a picture like Cyberpunk).
  • Updated livery system, with painting of glass and carbon + more material types. integrated into a share code based Creative hub.
  • FOMO cars added to dealership (maybe for an elevated price) after the corresponding series is over. All suitable cars from FH5 to be added to the dealership as well. Maintain parity with FH.
  • All real tracks from FM7. Plus 3/4 new tracks.
  • Open/Drift/Trackday lobbies. AI in private multiplayer. Share code based custom lobbies.
  • Full drag and Drift modes.
  • Graphical overhaul. I dont care if they have to take a sponsorship or whatever from AMD or better yet Nvidia, to overhaul the RT system and optimize it as much as possible. DLSS/FSR3 should be mandatory.
  • Ai updates. FRR improvements.
  • Audio rework, add more variety to repeating sounds like blowoffs gear whine etc.
There's more like replays and free play settings and whatnot. But all this would be a great(for me) v2/spec2 for the game.
Some solid ideas man all the way. It appears there was a ton of ideas they had in the early days and somehow some way they all got axed and we ended up with a huge fixer-upper that did not even feel like the Forza DNA anymore.

I'm going to piggy back a little bit off of some of the stuff you mentioned, I primarily want them to expand freeplay and career even more.
- a fuel usage multiplier like the tire wear one we have

- a slider for AI difficulty up to 10, 8 is weird number to stop on. But the AI still needs fixing they are at 70 percent in my opinion up from 40 when the game launched

- add more divisions like how they are doing for multiplayer. I don't get why they couldn't just make a GT2, GT3 division across the board for freeplay too. We still need a modern and classic trans am division, V8 supercars, group 5, GT4, classic GT, and many cars moved around into proper divisions including the DPi's being put into P2. And whatever other new cars coming that would bring about a new division

- a slider for career mode that adjusts race length is a great idea and was one of the best things about FM7. We should get that back

- qualifying mode for career would be nice and keep it optional

- eventually once a lot of this game is tightened up I would like to see a larger grid size. We have been on a 24 car grid size for the last several games. Why not bump it up to 32 eventually. I think the console could handle it at least maybe the series X and maybe keep it at 24 for the S if it can't handle it

- being able to share freeplay custom races with other players

- being able to choose starting grid position in freeplay like you can in career mode. If I want to start 24th, let me. I don't always like starting first or 7th.

- being able to hand pick what AI cars I race against in freeplay and by grid positions. Currently it is not so simple choosing what cars to race against, it is a downright chore because you have to figure out the weight, class, power levels, year, etc...it's annoying at times

- allow certain buckets or divisions to start first during a rolling race start like in real life where the prototypes go first then GT cars after

- being able to choose custom weather buckets for the variable weather selection, up to 3 would be nice. Like light rain, to heavy rain, to dense fog

- a feature to flash headlights when approaching slower drivers. I have found myself on a few occasions on straightaways behind slower AI clicking the left thumstick as if I wanted to flash my headlights as an instinct lol

- a custom race championship or the ability to select up 10-12 different tracks, customize their laps, weather, grids, divisions etc and let it play out in succession. We finish one race and it goes straight to the next. Of course giving the ability to tune, customize, change tires and fuel settings, difficulty in between

- end the FOMO stuff ASAP. But also bulk up the Builders cup. It has not been added to since launch, it would be great with some updates where they add a dozen or so new race types on top of featured tours and open class races. This would also give them the ability to add more NEW TO FM CARS as rewards that NOBODY SHOULD MISS OUT on

That's all I have for now I won't bore anymore with other little details I have in mind. Maybe T10 will add none of these ideas or maybe they will add these little by little, who knows. But what many of us have come up with is what the core game needs. They are trying I will give them that but there's still way more they should be capable of doing for a game like this.
 
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I'm a bit out of the loop after being away, catching up on this new update 10. Open races now cut practice short after 2 laps, no timed session after. That's expected behavior?
@syphe I interpreted this as issue as being about the open races in single player.
You can only do two laps of practice now before the practice ends which is incredibly annoying. Before there was an extra 10 minutes of practice in open races in single player which was very useful.

I usually use the practice laps to dial in the tune of my car and adjust my braking points for the car I'm using at the moment. Two laps is just too short to do that. I often need at least 5-6 laps meaning I now have to restart the practice session several times. Why would they change this?!🙄
Dan Greenawalt - you the man!
Chris Esaki is a con artist.
I agree with most of what you wrote above, but let's not forget that Dan Greenawalt was responsible for FM7, which (besides FM '23) was the worst received FM title ever at launch.

Chris was responsible for fixing the hot mess that FM7 was when it arrived. He's a talented developer and is considered the father of the modern day cover shooter mechanic that most third person shooter games use nowadays. And there's no doubt about his passion for cars and motorsport.

As we've discussed in this thread before, and Adrian told us in this video, I'd say that the problem probably is Microsoft's/Xbox's hiring strategy rather than Mr Esaki being incompetent. Hiring people for just 18 months is madness.



Polyphony Digital has their own set of problems with GT7 as well. The game is ofc much more polished than FM '23 at the moment, but Kazunori-San runs this franchise as his own one-man-show and there's very little insight in their roadmap regarding their game and they're constantly critisized for not listening to the fanbase.
 
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