Forza

[Dave A]

Driving a real car at speed is a hell of a lot harder than in a game, it's not super hard but an awful lot harder, it's more nerves than anything in a real car, one mistake and you and/or your car couldv'e had it, but in a game it's a peice of piss.

 

[James2097]

Of course a real car is easier code_kev, you have more senses at work - real life is much better at conveying information to you. Thats what my point about sim games was about above.

Admittedly I haven't played Forza, and welcome it to be fun. My post was in relation to what it would have to be to actually beat GT concisely. You agree its not as good. I said PGR2 was bad at 30fps so it was kind of ominous regarding Forza. 30 may be fine if its consistent, but PGR2 certainly wasn't.

Hey I didn't even know theres a demo yet! If the physics are good then thats terrific. How does it feel different from GT?

Music is a subjective thing. I get bored of the same songs over and over in most car games, even custom soundtracks. I love music, just not while driving. Yeah that comment I made sounded a bit full on. Never thought I'd get a considered response to my rant. What I should've said:
The custom soundtrack thing isn't really significant in terms of being a game making/breaking feature, much like Burnout3. Just a happy side effect of being on Xbox. And in any new sim the cars, like in GTR, should sound spectacular and negate the need for music.

Aesthetically, I stand by what I said. It is noticeable to my eyes. The devil is in the details I suppose. As a visual designer, I am very particular, so don't worry youself about that too much mate!

 

[code_kev]

Have you ever driven a car on the track or autocross?

Nope.

How does it feel compared to GT? Harder, and less forgiving.

 

[Dave A]

Yes. A lot less forgiving, GT3 had very effective and permenant ABS on real cars don't always have it, let alone ABS as good as GT3's.

 

[James2097]

Sounds promising. Prologue seemed to need a little more brake pumping/easing off the brake to go into a corner in a stable manner than GT3, but I doubt GT would ever go with fully twitchy, ineffective at 100% deployment brakes. It would freak out the majority of the fan base too much. GT is already pushing the envelope as to how sim-like a REALLY popular car game can be, in terms of trickyness of handling. When you NEED a wheel and pedals to do well, thats when the game won't sell very well. Lucky the Xbox has those triggers with a bit of travel to them eh.

 

[Swift]

Nope.

How does it feel compared to GT? Harder, and less forgiving.

Yep, many times harder and extremely less forgiving. This is why there are the invisible "training wheels" James talked about.

Don't get me wrong. Just about the most fun I've ever had was taking my cavalier around Summit POint Raceway. But that mess was hard. So many things to worry about. Yeah, you have more sensory input, but you also have more to do as well. Brake and throttle control of a real car has a very different feel from any racing game that is availibe now. Sure, driving around town is cake. But when you're "at speed" everything changes.

So, before you say it's easier to drive the real thing then a video game. Take a car around the track for a few laps. Then you'll appreciate what goes on in the video game.

 

[98cobra]

Look and see. A beautiful Carrera GT has made it. Wonder if its spoiler comes up like in PGR2.

Now they're starting to look better; doesn't look plasticy. 👍

 

[SaintKamus]

Yes. A lot less forgiving, GT3 had very effective and permenant ABS on real cars don't always have it, let alone ABS as good as GT3's.

it wasn't just the brakes, ABS can only do so much, but in GT3 you could slam on the brakes very late and not go off the track, try this in real life or in a better sim (GTR, GPL, or GT4) and it's off to the sandtraps or the wall.

 

[Dave A]

Very true.

 

[ferrari355]

is it possible that gt4 will have the lamborghini? murcialago,gallardo

 

[fabro_s]

No, but we have every single skyline, lancer evo, and every subaru wrx sti, all together make like 100 cars! =)

 

[flamingwonky]

No, but we have every single skyline, lancer evo, and every subaru wrx sti, all together make like 100 cars! =)

Heh ^^^ a pretty low estimate if you ask me Doesn't bother me too much, since I like to collectioneer though.
And NO, there IS NO Porsche, Ferrari, or Lamborghini!!! at EA

Anyways, I don't think that Forza holds a candle up to GT4... The production quality in the latter far superior. The screen shots I've seen of Forza don't look anything as good as GT. I despise the plasticy feel; it has its advantages (whatever those may be ) but is not realistic. Perhaps I'm just a fanboy

Forza will never get GT's courses, and my... wouldn't it be a pain to say, " *sigh*. I wish I could race that on Trial Mountain

 

[ferrari355]

why no lambo's

 

[ferrari355]

lolololololol hahahahahahahahaaha i just found my PS1 and i said "hey lets play good old GT1 " it was so funny that im playing it right now. its so cheesey looking..... but the cool thing is you feel like you r going soooooooooo fast. its awsome when you rev the car it drops in revs so slowy it sound s cool

 

[flamingwonky]

lolololololol hahahahahahahahaaha i just found my PS1 and i said "hey lets play good old GT1 " it was so funny that im playing it right now. its so cheesey looking..... but the cool thing is you feel like you r going soooooooooo fast. its awsome when you rev the car it drops in revs so slowy it sound s cool

Dammit.... Have you pehaps heard of a video game publishing Company called Electronic Arts, or EA? They happen to publish a franchise called Need For Speed, and for licensing purposes, they have bought out the rights to the given automotive corporations a long time ago. Fearing, correctly, that Lamborghini, Porsche, and Ferrari will make a selling point for Sony's Gran Turismo and will therefore steal sales from their Need For Speed franchise, EA has refused to share licenses to these automakers. That may explain why these automakers (except Porsche which came into a rear door as RUF) have not been in GT1, GT2, GT3, GT Concept, or GT Prologue? Is this all.... clear enough for you?

 

[ferrari355]

very clear............ to bad it has absolutley nothing to do with the post you quoted

 

[LFRANCOF483]

Forza IMO looks very nice, very smooth very detailed, only the lighting and such stops it looking as realistic as GT4, but from a technical point of view Forza's graphics smash GT4's, one car in Forza uses 3-4 times as many poly's as in GT4's cars.

that's from a technical standpoint, it may have 3 -4 times as many polygons as GT4, but that just means you will never see any of those jagged edges (they look like little steps on the outline of the car) but GT4 puts so much more detail and depth into the car that it still looks better

i didn't want to read through all these pages but I'm pretty open minded to anything and Forza would look to be a pretty good game, especailly with the Ferrari's, and porsches, and the modding, etc.... they tried to justify having less cars by saying...."Forza may have less cars, but we have the cars that people DREAM of driving"

that's cool and all, but i real driving enthusiast will tell you, there's nothing better than to take your own car and tearing it up on a track, we're talking about a sim here aren't we? well, i think it would be more of a simulator if it had the cars that everyday people had......

i dont know about everybody else, but i love taking everyday cars and testing them on tracks comparing its lap times to competing cars in the same category........but that's just me

 

[flamingwonky]

that's from a technical standpoint, it may have 3 -4 times as many polygons as GT4, but that just means you will never see any of those jagged edges (they look like little steps on the outline of the car) but GT4 puts so much more detail and depth into the car that it still looks better

i didn't want to read through all these pages but I'm pretty open minded to anything and Forza would look to be a pretty good game, especailly with the Ferrari's, and porsches, and the modding, etc.... they tried to justify having less cars by saying...."Forza may have less cars, but we have the cars that people DREAM of driving"

that's cool and all, but i real driving enthusiast will tell you, there's nothing better than to take your own car and tearing it up on a track, we're talking about a sim here aren't we? well, i think it would be more of a simulator if it had the cars that everyday people had......

i dont know about everybody else, but i love taking everyday cars and testing them on tracks comparing its lap times to competing cars in the same category........but that's just me

I agree. Part of what make GT enjoyable for me are oddball cars that would hardly even appear on a racetrack, e.g. Classics, old skool Japanese compacts, slow cars as long as they ain't Daihatsu...the list goes on and on...
The game has always been aesthetically pleasing to the eye, with textures and colors that look 'just right'. Just look at that Evo at the top of the screen, beautiful in its correctness. A bummer is the lack (?) of online for GT4 over Forza, just because I think online gameplay is infinitely more fun and challenging. (I'm a complulsive tuner and show-off who likes sharing skills or concepts, just like any other sane guy). With any luck online will come out later... (On a separate disk a la GT2?).
Microsoft spent big bucks to share the Ferrari/Porsche license... confirm/deny.

 

[ferrari355]

indeed very well said. i to like comparing cars that actuall people have and seeing strong and weak points

 

[SaintKamus]

that's from a technical standpoint, it may have 3 -4 times as many polygons as GT4, but that just means you will never see any of those jagged edges (they look like little steps on the outline of the car) but GT4 puts so much more detail and depth into the car that it still looks better

i didn't want to read through all these pages but I'm pretty open minded to anything and Forza would look to be a pretty good game, especailly with the Ferrari's, and porsches, and the modding, etc.... they tried to justify having less cars by saying...."Forza may have less cars, but we have the cars that people DREAM of driving"

that's cool and all, but i real driving enthusiast will tell you, there's nothing better than to take your own car and tearing it up on a track, we're talking about a sim here aren't we? well, i think it would be more of a simulator if it had the cars that everyday people had......

i dont know about everybody else, but i love taking everyday cars and testing them on tracks comparing its lap times to competing cars in the same category........but that's just me

err? how does increased polygon count reduce jagged edges? increased poly count means rounder objects, wich in turns leads to MORE jaggies, but since the xbox is runing at progresive scan and at higher resolution the edges will still be smoother than those in GT4 wich is intercaled and lower res...

as far as the graphics in Forza being better than in GT4, yes.. and no. the attention to detail in GT4 really is on a league on it's own, specially considering this is a PS2 game, and the fact that it doesn't ever drop a frame below 60.
yes forza has more polygons, and even interiors, but the shaders look all wrong, and GT4 has some of the best looking shader effects i've seen. they are not exageated in any way, they just look realistic (again, considering this is just a ps2 game.)
forza however runs at 30 FPS not just because of the graphics, but because of the physics too, remmember, car damage doesn't come free, it actually has a pretty significant performane price.
forza's cars are more detailed than those in GT4 easily, but the lightning kinda ruins them.
and the tracks look good (i've only played the laguna seca demo) but it leaves me wanting for more detail after seeing the level of detail obtained in GT4.
so sure, the xbox has more potential, and it shows. but it also shows us, that as good as the forza artists are, they can't match PD in terms of visual impact.

 

[Lambo88]

I agree. Part of what make GT enjoyable for me are oddball cars that would hardly even appear on a racetrack, e.g. Classics, old skool Japanese compacts, slow cars as long as they ain't Daihatsu...the list goes on and on...
The game has always been aesthetically pleasing to the eye, with textures and colors that look 'just right'. Just look at that Evo at the top of the screen, beautiful in its correctness. A bummer is the lack (?) of online for GT4 over Forza, just because I think online gameplay is infinitely more fun and challenging. (I'm a complulsive tuner and show-off who likes sharing skills or concepts, just like any other sane guy). With any luck online will come out later... (On a separate disk a la GT2?).
Microsoft spent big bucks to share the Ferrari/Porsche license... confirm/deny.

I agree it's fun to race everyday cars, but you can do this in Forza also. I consider Focus, Eclipse, Impreza, Sentra, Protégé, Mustang and all of those everyday cars. The cars you say are everyday cars ( 100 bhp or less) are just plain boring and wouldn't be part of my eventual car list.

See ya

 

[James2097]

Right on SaintKamus. GT cars look superior simply because of the second to none proportional correctness, lighting and detail in the face and rear of the cars. Its not how many polys you have, its where you use them. The face, and rear of cars is where most of the individuality of cars are most easily apparent, and the most important factor in the appearance and character of a car aesthetically. The rest kind of fits into place when designing a beautiful looking car - proportianal balance, overhangs etc. GT does not skimp on creating amazing looking faces and rear ends for its cars - using comparitively sparse polys for the whole middle section. The models are designed to run 60fps and are the most recognisable and beautiful recreations of cars in a game still. Thats why Forza, and the PGR games have more polys but the cars are still not as readily recognisable in game. They are pretty damn close, but the human eye is a subtle and fickle thing - proportions are not EXACTLY right, and I don't get convinced that I'm looking at a car thats metal, and not just a mesh of infinately thin polys in the shape of a car. Plus I am a GT fanboy. For good reason...

 

[code_kev]

Some of PGR2s cars were better then GT4s I thought, especially some of the ferraris, they are simply...*drool*.
The biggest flaw for PGR2 was that while some cars looked incredible, some looked utter crap.
But yeah, Gt has a certain "every car looks great" thing about it.

Models designed to run at 60fps...twoddle.

GT4 looks as great as it does because they got the colours and textures right, something that most games don't seem to do.

 

[James2097]

[Models designed to run at 60fps...twoddle.]

Err, so you don't agree that performance and efficiency in design carries through to all aspects of GT? It does. Twoddle indeed. All aspects of GT's design are calibrated to not kill the important fps target. It wouldn't be a modern GT game otherwise.


If GT had Ferraris, you would drool so much you would dehydrate and need to go to hospital. PGR's cars were plasticky with bad lighting effects that seemed to get updated at half the game's framerate. This was fixed in PGR2, but that only goes at an inconsistent 30fps simply bringing the lighting updating into line with the framerate. The modern Ferrari models looked nice enough in Gotham 2, but that was it. They did not handle right, at all. To me that negates any excitement I had at the prospect of driving said cars.

 

[flamingwonky]

I agree it's fun to race everyday cars, but you can do this in Forza also. I consider Focus, Eclipse, Impreza, Sentra, Protégé, Mustang and all of those everyday cars. The cars you say are everyday cars ( 100 bhp or less) are just plain boring and wouldn't be part of my eventual car list.

See ya

Ack. Sure those are rather everyday, but certainly not oddball or creative... As a beginning driver I'd like to know what a stock **insert_slow_stock_car_name_here** feels like. Not just the higher performance ones, either. I'd love to check out...say, the Prius. Especialy from bonnet view . Just the cars you mentioned = NFSU. Higher performance = Forza. A bit from everywhere = Gran Turismo .
The car models in Forza are intentionally created with cosmetic damage in mind, I feel. Their 3D put-together fenders and the like are cleaner and thus easily distorted. I have trouble visualizing vehicle damage for GT because the models are so lush and polished, and because the vehicle looks like it's a whole rather than made up of body panels.
I'm actually likening Forza's visuals to Burnout 2. Given that the former has way purdier graphics, the car models in both games have a sort of superficial glossy plastic feel to them. A little off topic though.

 

[code_kev]

Oh you meant lowering the detail to keep the fps up? Ah right sorry, my bad.

I have to say, I have yet to see anything in GT4, in terms of car quality wise that quite matches the 250 gto in PGR2, I'm not just saying that because I'm some rampabt fan boy, it's just what I thought after playing em.

I have to agree with the above poster, the cars in GT games to look like they are made out of one blob of metal, as opposed to parts like a real car.

 

[James2097]

Agree 100% flamingwonky. Though GT4 seems to have a really nice (fake) panel seperation that looks better than it should be allowed to, being a texture in many cases. Mind, thats photo mode for you!

 

[LFRANCOF483]

err? how does increased polygon count reduce jagged edges? increased poly count means rounder objects, wich in turns leads to MORE jaggies, but since the xbox is runing at progresive scan and at higher resolution the edges will still be smoother than those in GT4 wich is intercaled and lower res...

that as good as the forza artists are, they can't match PD in terms of visual impact.

my best friend is a graphics design major and he says it's the other way around. He says what you will see if you look at the closeup section are jagged lines where polygon edges are and where polygons intersect. Jagged edges are inevitable, as each pixel is a finite width. Unless the line is perfectly horizontal or vertical, a perfectly straight line will not always fall exactly on a pixel, therefore the closest pixel is chosen resulting in a jagged line.

in order to eliminate jagged lines is to add more polygons, the more polygons there are, the smaller they will be, translating into smoother images

 

[McLaren]

Oh you meant lowering the detail to keep the fps up? Ah right sorry, my bad.

I have to say, I have yet to see anything in GT4, in terms of car quality wise that quite matches the 250 gto in PGR2, I'm not just saying that because I'm some rampabt fan boy, it's just what I thought after playing em.

I have to agree with the above poster, the cars in GT games to look like they are made out of one blob of metal, as opposed to parts like a real car.

I completely agree with your PGR2 statement. Walking around in the showroom, and seeing the lights reflect into the car was indeed nice. Although a lot of cars didn't have it, I remember the Enzo, SL 55 AMG, F50, 911 Turbo, and about 2-5 morehad it. IMO, PGR2 does look incredibly more realisitic than Forza though. However, most Xbox racer fans have never really cared about graphics that equal GT4s b/c most of them are arcade racers, and the graphics in Forza ma appeal to them more. IMO, 1 Xbox game that did hold candle stick to GT3 was RSC2, and now even Colin Mcrae Rally 2005 looks wat better.

 

[McLaren]

very clear............ to bad it has absolutley nothing to do with the post you quoted

He was replying to your post above that on when you asked why no lamborghini.
And flamingwonky, its better to have recieve RUF than Porsche.

EA probably had no idea about Ruf thank goodness. And that may be because neither company really has anything to do with each other besides sharing a body style.