Forza3 can't be compared with GT5....

[H3avyM3tal]

He won't have anything to say and will just continue to say unrelated things, avoiding the questions as he goes. I seriously don't understand how this goes on as it has been for the past weeks...

 

[Terronium-12]

He won't have anything to say and will just continue to say unrelated things, avoiding the questions as he goes. I seriously don't understand how this goes on as it has been for the past weeks...

That makes two of us.

 

[Dave A]

Very simple. LFS has physical model of for example RWD front engine car, and has it right.

LFS is very good and it does a good job of simulating random numbers on a fictional car. Are you saying that because the fictional car in LFS drives as it does in LFS, every similarly powerful front engined rwd car should drive that way too?

Next step is to make every RWD front engine car in game drives like real one, which depends on weight distribution, suspension setup, tyre sizes on front/rear axe. It could make a big difference, for example latest Camaro undesteer and a lot.

Because right here you contradict yourself massively by admitting that the latest Camero (a front engined rwd car) understeers a lot. That dissagrees with your first point fairly substantially.

GT4 physics was absolutely 100% completely different from LFS/rFactor/GTR/GTL/GPL/Forza.

No it wasn't, Forza was very different to LFS, FS is quite different to GTR and GTL. So I don't see your point here, you can carry bsic driving principles from one game to other but if you cou;d take the same car in each game it would drive differenty in each game.

It's not only most of GT4 RWD cars did exactly opposite what they do in simulators above, even GT4 firm sliding (what you call "understeer") is same 100% different from all this games. Cars do nothing like this in any simulator.

Most road cars understeer, they should, they're agenerally designed to. That doesn't mean they don't oversteer either, but it's a safety first approach that manufacturers use becuase understeer is easier to correct than oversteer. So short of unbalancing the rear end most cars natural reaction to overcooking a corner is to understeer.

Saying GT4 was a simulator is same as saying LFS/rFactor/GTR/GTL/GPL/Forza have no even distant relation to any simulation. You don't have choices.

No one dissagreed with this. at least it gives you one point I agree with.

So what are you saying is that all PC simulators are not simulators at all. Also you are saying that GT5P is not too much simulator as well cause it's a halfway between GT4 and LFS/rFactor/GTR/GTL/GPL/Forza, and in your logic it means it went pretty far from realistic GT4 physics.

That's not what he said and it's not what he means.

I read another Clarkson's article:

...in a column for The Sunday Times, Clarkson had this to say about GT4:

Congratulations, you've just posted proof that you lied earlier. Clarkson thought it was realistic. He even pointed out the understeer when he was playing the game, his first corner and it wen't a little wide and he said something along the lines of "oh, that's realisitic" like he wasn't execting the game to simulate that but was impressed that it did.

No way! There are two problems in GT4. I thought it is perfect!

There's far more than two problems with GT4, but you haven't touched arguably the biggest in terms of physics and what you are talking about is absolute nonsence. you could be arguing against GT4'sphysics in a certain area and I could be agreeing with you but I'm most certainly not going to bring that up just so you can move onto something else.

So the guy showed to the whole world that NSX (and almost every RWD car in game) is not just a bit off, it's just opposite to real life.

How? Explain how that stest of the NSX at Laguna on TopGear shows that almost every RWD car in the game is off, let alone opposite to real life?

Even in GRID they oversteer how it supposed to be. Even in PGR 4 hard braking/throttling inside the turn will kick you off. Not in GT4

No they don't. They over simulate oversteer and make it very easy to manipulate and control.

Then first thing I mentioned playing GT4 is how sound off. Real M3 E46 doesn't sound like this, has nothing to do with GT4 sound. Clarckson never seen M3 E46 or what?

The sound is a weak point, I think most people will agree but why are you yet again flapping from one point to another like a fish out of water? Stick to a point, validate that point, argue to a conclusion and then move on. you just get called out and move on without coming close to conclusing our previous argument.

So is understeer opposite to oversteer? Yes, it is

Did Jeremy Clarkson oversteer with real life NSX? Yes, in every single turn. Once he even completely lost the car

No he didn't, he experienced understeer and oversteer in the real car and he took some corners cleanly. Watch the video again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgCKaO6_O6A
You can even see the NSX in GT4 losing the real a bit a couple of times. I'm not saying that GT4 is as real as the real thing, it's miles away but I'm saying your argument in this case is flawed and wrong.

Did Jeremy Clarkson oversteer with GT4 NSX? Nope. Not even once. He undesteer all the way. I did the same in game on same Laguna Seca: I couldn't oversteer even on purpose trying hard.

So what does it mean in your opinion?

Again, watch the video again. regarding oversteer in GT4 I rarely had a problem. With N tyres on I used to spin out regularly when I started playing. GT4 has many faults, some fairly big, as do the other games you mentioned. But they arn't what you are arguing against.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Why do so many people think Forza is so far behind GT? In the end they are essentially the same thing with just different execution. Sort of like a grilled steaks and a broiled steak, same food with a different flavour.

Agreed. I think it's some sort of commitment or brand loyalty that is preventing them from seeing the alternatives.

GT is always more detail oriented

Based on my GT5p experience, it is for sure more detail oriented in the car models. Best details in car model graphics on consoles ever.

 

[lildomplaya]

..Best details in car model graphics on consoles ever.

Word to big bird. 👍

 

[Krayzeebyker]

Best details, and probably best until GT6 supercedes them! Just look at the difference between GT3 and GT4 once the developers had learned to code for the PS2 properly! GT4 still looks half decent for car models and handling! Although not up to Forza 2 OR GT5 standards, it was a cut above at release....

 

[otago]

Because right here you contradict yourself massively by admitting that the latest Camero (a front engined rwd car) understeers a lot. That dissagrees with your first point fairly substantially.

And what is the contradiction?

Even kids in school know that you can reduce oversteer by soften rear suspension and placing wider tires on rear. You can do the same in Forza 2, even Shelby GT500 could be turned into understeering car by hard tuning.

That's what Chevy did with latest Camaro, but not with previous models. That's what BMW did with 135

 

[Eric.]

Where I said anything about real life? I was talking about simulators.

This arguments like "I drove once my father's car to Wallmart and it drives exactly same as in game X" means nothing.

Take for example Top Gear episode "GT4 vs real life". First Clarkson drove NSX on PS2, understeering like hell and mashing all buttons in turns together.

Then he drove NSX in real life, oversteering like hell and carefully braking and throttling (didn't help too much, obviously Clarkson is not a race driver)

Conclusion? GT4 is more real life. LOL

Car in game drove exactly opposite as it did in real life.

Oh, well, for something to be realistic it is to mimic real life.

And here we are again, full circle to Clarkson's comments, driving to WalMart, etc. Like nobody's ever driven their car near the limit on a deserted road.

Where the hell is any of your real life experience that backs up any statements you've said? The LFS cars don't exist in real life, so you can't say they handle realistically, can you? You've never driven a Camaro at 10 tenths on the track, then hopped in a GT-R to do the same.

And aren't you the one that said Clarkson can't drive?

And what is the contradiction?

Even kids in school know that you can reduce oversteer by soften rear suspension and placing wider tires on rear. You can do the same in Forza 2, even Shelby GT500 could be turned into understeering car by hard tuning.

That's what Chevy did with latest Camaro, but not with previous models. That's what BMW did with 135

The GT500 is an understeering pig without having to tune in it FM2...Nearly 3900lb and an iron 5.4L with a supercharger and intercooler up front will do that.

 

[otago]

The GT500 is an understeering pig without having to tune in it FM2...Nearly 3900lb and an iron 5.4L with a supercharger and intercooler up front will do that.

Yeah, right.

I tuned it to reduce oversteer cause stock version in Forza 2 loose the tail in every turn. LOL

 

[Eric.]

Yeah, right.

I tuned it to reduce oversteer cause stock version in Forza 2 loose the tail in every turn. LOL

Take a turn at 80mph and tell me that again. Sure, any RWD with around 250-300hp can step the rear out in slower turns under power.

Also, why does this guy keep understeering?

 

[Dave A]

And what is the contradiction?

Even kids in school know that you can reduce oversteer by soften rear suspension and placing wider tires on rear. You can do the same in Forza 2, even Shelby GT500 could be turned into understeering car by hard tuning.

That's what Chevy did with latest Camaro, but not with previous models. That's what BMW did with 135

The contradiction is that referring to the Camaro you stated "LFS has physical model of for example RWD front engine car, and has it right." You are making a blanket statement that because the Camaro is front engined rear wheel drive it should handle like the fictional car in LFS. You then state that the new Camaro, a front engined rear wheel drive car, understeers, a lot. That's a contradiction, why do you assume the older Camaro in question should handle like the fictional car in LFS despite now acknowledging through your comment about the new camaro that being rwd doesn't mean a car doesn't understeer. Your whole earlier argument was about the Camaro being rear wheel drive and that it shouldn't understeer. But why not answer the actual responses to your poor argument rather than pick a comment that wrongly written or not doesn't serve to distinguish whos actual argument is right or wrong.

 

[otago]

Take a turn at 80mph and tell me that again.

I did like 500 laps on Laguna Seca with this car. It's one of the most oversteering car in the whole game.

Never drove it in real life. The only Mustang I drove in real life was 1967 with 390 V-8 320 hp engine. Not bad, suspension is pretty firm. Many people think that old muscles are like Expedition and do nothing but bouncing. Not true

 

[Eric.]

I did like 500 laps on Laguna Seca with this car. It's one of the most oversteering car in the whole game.

Never drove it in real life. The only Mustang I drove in real life was 1967 with 390 V-8 320 hp engine. Not bad, suspension is pretty firm. Many people think that old muscles are like Expedition and do nothing but bouncing. Not true

Refer to the video in my post above. A friend of mine owns one of these cars in real life. When he first got it, one of his first impressions was how much understeer it suffers from, mostly from the iron block V8. He's practically replaced the entire suspension in order to get it handling better.

 

[otago]

Refer to the video in my post above. A friend of mine owns one of these cars in real life. When he first got it, one of his first impressions was how much understeer it suffers from, mostly from the iron block V8. He's practically replaced the entire suspension in order to get it handling better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaGOxCG7VVk

 

[Terronium-12]

You do realize that's a 2010 model, don't you?

 

[Eric.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaGOxCG7VVk

This car is the very definition of "pushy-loose." In other words, it drives around the skid pad with what feels like a ton of grip until it runs into a wall of tire-chattering understeer. If provoked with the throttle, the car breaks free with lurid, almost uncontrollable oversteer. In the slalom, I relied on the built-in understeer to feel my way through the cones. Steering is remarkably quick and appropriately accurate. Only on the last cone did the car begin to feel rubbery and unstable when I went to the throttle to coax some added rotation.

Found under "handling comments." Oversteer is provided by the power alone.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=124190/pageId=134183

 

[otago]

You do realize that's a 2010 model, don't you?

What a huge difference it makes, 2010 model.

Now this is understeer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAb-zh_BVdc

Found under "handling comments." Oversteer is provided by the power alone.

You just opened my eyes. I thought car usually just jumps at 200 mph inside 90 degrees turn and start oversteering without any power.

 

[Terronium-12]

Can someone get this back on topic and stop this person from talking?

 

[Eric.]

What a huge difference it makes, 2010 model.

Now this is understeer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAb-zh_BVdc



You just opened my eyes. I thought car usually just jumps at 200 mph inside 90 degrees turn and start oversteering without any power.

You really don't understand car dynamics. ANY RWD car can oversteer if it can break the rear loose under power. Yet not every RWD car considered to be oversteer biased. Lift off oversteer, Scandinavian flick...plain old poor suspension setups...

 

[Murcie_LP640]

...Such as the solid rear-axle setup in the GT500 which is a defining characteristic as to why it handles so horribly in the first place.

 

[Spencer]

I'm the friend that Eric was mentioning. I do happen to own and race a red/white 07 GT500. This thing plowed into the corner and you had to want to drift off the corner to get it to bring the back end out. I replaced the rear lower control arms to get rid of wheel hop, added a Watts link suspension in the back, replaced the stock springs and struts with Tokico D-Spec shocks and struts with Ford Racing springs, moved the battery to the spare tire well in the trunk and got a smaller battery. Only then has that made the car almost neutral on turn in. I can snap the back out on demand in a very controllable slide when on the power exiting the corner but it will NOT oversteer into the corner. If Ford had put a quality suspension it in in the first place like I have, the solid rear axle would be no big deal. Its not a big deal now that I have put a good suspension in it.

 

[ploopsy]

I went through there car list and I must say that even though its way less than most modern gt games it is still pretty tempting. They have tonnes of interesting racing cars.

Most of the missing skylines were pretty much the same and t10 is not in cahoots with nissan like PD so they might have less access to there car lineup.

 

[Terronium-12]

I went through there car list and I must say that even though its way less than most modern gt games it is still pretty tempting. They have tonnes of interesting racing cars.

Most of the missing skylines were pretty much the same and t10 is not in cahoots with nissan like PD so they might have less access to there car lineup.

I'm interested in the car pack that's coming during the holiday (On or before Christmas, I'd assume), other than the Italia what else would be there?

Man, I want this game. NOW.

Not next Tuesday - NOW.

 

[otago]

You really don't understand car dynamics. ANY RWD car can oversteer if it can break the rear loose under power.

It's so good we finally have an expert in car dynamics!

So, mister expert, I drove RWD cars in GT4 turning the wheel all the way off and holding throttle to the ground at the same time. Zero of oversteer. Not even sign of it.

Are you saying GT4 is completely unrealistic? It can't be

 

[ItsHim]

They have tonnes of interesting racing cars.

Yeah, that was where the big boys played in FM2 - tons of fun while it lasted.

You can do the same in Forza 2, even Shelby GT500 could be turned into understeering car by hard tuning.

Now you've gone too far mate.

Don't even think of dragging FM2 tuning into this fight, because that's the biggest letdown of the whole game.

You seriously claim that you can tune any car in FM2 based on real life setups and still win? Have you actually ever looked at a LB tune? And saw what times we got? You know what it takes to get a 1:54 on Mugello in B class? Or even a 1:53?

Ever seen a Seat Cupra without independent rear suspension in real life? Because that's what you'll get if you set the rear ARBs to 40. But you'll just play along to get those 1:54s coming.

So now what?

Shall we discuss rebound settings? Caster? Gearing? The latter very popular on RWD models so even a fool could nail it without TCS because the gears were stretched out like mad?

Or maybe even diff settings, which you want to decrease to decrease oversteer. What, you should do the exact opposite in RL? Welcome to Dan's world my friend.

So now what?

 

[Eric.]

It's so good we finally have an expert in car dynamics!

So, mister expert, I drove RWD cars in GT4 turning the wheel all the way off and holding throttle to the ground at the same time. Zero of oversteer. Not even sign of it.

Are you saying GT4 is completely unrealistic? It can't be

I never mentioned GT4. But yeah, GT4's low speed physics aren't realistic, at least in regard to oversteer. Power oversteer isn't too easy to come by in most cases in that from what I can remember (boy that's been a long time already). More prevalent in GT4 is oversteer caused by purposely unsettling the chassis, whether doing a Scandinavian Flick, or abruptly manipulating the throttle and brake (drive a small MR car or the Ruf Yellowbird for best effect - oh and the Ford GT, I never could tame that with full mods).

 

[niky]

It's so good we finally have an expert in car dynamics!

So, mister expert, I drove RWD cars in GT4 turning the wheel all the way off and holding throttle to the ground at the same time. Zero of oversteer. Not even sign of it.

Are you saying GT4 is completely unrealistic? It can't be

Hmmm.....

And that was just on S-tires...

And so was this...

Hmmm... didn't even have to jink for this one... mad, mad little car, that Spyker.

More here:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69127 and in the other articles in my sig.

So... no oversteer? When? Where? I've got my proofs... where's yours?

You've obviously never driven GT4 with the driving aids (TCS and ASM) off. And until you do, you have no qualifications to be making unqualified statements about GT4. Not as much right as some of us who've completed over 90% of the game (so I didn't finish mission 40... so sue me... I finally got lazy after one-and-a-half years of straight playing... ).

Your arguments make about as much sense as taking SHIFT out of the box, setting everything on easy, and complaining the game is unrealistic because you can powersilde all over the place. Until you've played with all modes with a variety of cars on a variety of tracks, you won't know the half of it.

-

As an interesting sidenote: not all rear-wheel drive cars can power-oversteer... or at least, not easily. It takes a certain amount of power, the proper suspension geometry, and a little something called an LSD. That's one of the biggest shortcomings, note, of the lower level BMW 3-series... tuned for understeer at the limit and without an LSD... which aren't easy to drift... and can understeer on track if you don't drive them properly, despite being very, very neutral on the road... as compared to... say... a Mazda MX-5... which has better suspension settings AND an LSD, which even a monkey can get sideways (not very far... not enough power... but it's enough)... and we've got monkeys on our test team who've only "popped their cherry" on the MX-5.

 

[Eric.]

Yeah, didn't mention the LSD. Try drifting an AE86 without one and you just get a single line of smoke behind you and some understeer.

And, off-topic: Wow, GT4 looks like crap now!

 

[Spencer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n95-pZLSNhE

that's how the GT500 is on the track.

 

[niky]

Yeah, didn't mention the LSD. Try drifting an AE86 without one and you just get a single line of smoke behind you and some understeer.

Conversely, add an LSD to almost anything....


With all the floods around here, I've been considering getting one of those... it's one of the few direct-injection diesels with a fully-waterproofed ECU.

And they're a doozy to park. Line up alongside the space you want... crank the wheel over... and you can throw a donut into the hole, nice and tidy. I love LSDs...

And, off-topic: Wow, GT4 looks like crap now!

No, no... that's just my poor little camera... ...yeah... kinda does, doesn't it?