Forza3 can't be compared with GT5....

[G.T.Ace]

129 tuner cars?

You got me wrong, 129 Imprezas, Lancers, Skylines and FTOs when you also count the tuner versions.

Should I post every single Japanese model or you want to count them yourself?

But then you should need to exclude every single "doubled" car in Forza, like the 10 or so Porsche 911. By your logic, FM3 also doesnt have 400 cars.

 

[QuantumReaction]

Wow this thread has turned from Forza vs GT to an attempt to educate otago and his dream world where apparently Camaros are equal to Skylines

Keep it up guys

 

[otago]

But then you should need to exclude every single "doubled" car in Forza, like the 10 or so Porsche 911. By your logic, FM3 also doesnt have 400 cars.

That what I said already.

All this racing GT3 team "X" and racing GT3 team "Y" are not different cars. There are a lot of similar cars in R classes and I think Forza 3 has less than 300 cars if you exclude all of this.

 

[ItsHim]

Mate, I can't really see your point nor your motivation.

You know, the other day I asked my girlfriend: Let's have a burger. She went: Why not have some sushi? And she was right.

It's quite ok to have a burger once in a while: it's cheap meat for the masses, nutritious, tastes good because of all the tomato sauce and sugar and soft bread you don't have to chew. It can be made by anyone everywhere and from the big franchises it'll all taste the same all around the globe.

With sushi it's quite a different matter: it takes sophistication and care to make good sushi. You can't pick up the art of preparing that dish in a two week crash course, you'll spend about 5 years or more to get to the level to achieve anything decent. You wouldn't stuff it into your mouth as fast as you can swallow, you treat it with the same care that the chef showed when he prepared your dinner.

To me, Forza is like said burger - GT like a very tasty, carefully crafted raw fish dish.

The cultural background of the developers show in every game, and you're free to chose whatever fits you best.

So no, you really can't compare a burger to a proper dish.

 

[otago]

Mate, I can't really see your point nor your motivation.

My point is GT4 was a cheap game for casuals, good presentation but gameplay core was completely broken in every single aspect.

I can't remember any racing game which didn't have any AI difficulty level adjustments. I can't remember any game where the most powerful AI car in same competition randomly changes from 270 to 550 HP. I can't remember any game with label "simulator" and physics far behind even NFS 5.

This is my point. It's like you go to expensive restaurant and find out the food is from McDonalds nearby.

 

[Terronium-12]

That what I said already.

All this racing GT3 team "X" and racing GT3 team "Y" are not different cars. There are a lot of similar cars in R classes and I think Forza 3 has less than 300 cars if you exclude all of this.

They're not?

Funny, it doesn't play out that way in real life, because surely the No. 10 and 13 cars are....different, as is the driver.

Or are the drivers similar as well?

 

[dylansan]

*snip*

So no, you really can't compare a burger to a proper dish.

oddly enough I made a similar food analogy earlier, and I think you are spot on.

Someone mentioned food earlier, and I thought of this comparison.

Forza 3 is the nice steak. Delicious, but some annoying fat around the edges.

GT5 is the tiny portion delicacy created by Gordon Ramsey, but technically cooked by other great chefs.

GT5 will hopefully be a great meal, but there are concerns that the needed kick will be missing, though it will surely be large and filling.

Edit: This does, in a way, show that the games shouldn't be compared. You wouldn't compare a steakhouse to a fancy restaurant, even though they both serve food, and it tastes good.

...GTPSP - the delicious hot pocket or calzone

 

[Joey D]

Mate, I can't really see your point nor your motivation.

You know, the other day I asked my girlfriend: Let's have a burger. She went: Why not have some sushi? And she was right.

It's quite ok to have a burger once in a while: it's cheap meat for the masses, nutritious, tastes good because of all the tomato sauce and sugar and soft bread you don't have to chew. It can be made by anyone everywhere and from the big franchises it'll all taste the same all around the globe.

With sushi it's quite a different matter: it takes sophistication and care to make good sushi. You can't pick up the art of preparing that dish in a two week crash course, you'll spend about 5 years or more to get to the level to achieve anything decent. You wouldn't stuff it into your mouth as fast as you can swallow, you treat it with the same care that the chef showed when he prepared your dinner.

To me, Forza is like said burger - GT like a very tasty, carefully crafted raw fish dish.

The cultural background of the developers show in every game, and you're free to chose whatever fits you best.

So no, you really can't compare a burger to a proper dish.

What?

Why do so many people think Forza is so far behind GT? In the end they are essentially the same thing with just different execution. Sort of like a grilled steaks and a broiled steak, same food with a different flavour.

GT elitism at it's best I guess, it's amusing to watch at least.

 

[Terronium-12]

What?

Why do so many people think Forza is so far behind GT? In the end they are essentially the same thing with just different execution. Sort of like a grilled steaks and a broiled steak, same food with a different flavour.

GT elitism at it's best I guess, it's amusing to watch at least.

Just as I fail to understand why people believe and tend to reinforce they shouldn't be compared, nor are they competing with one another just because they're on different platforms.

 

[Joey D]

Just as I fail to understand why people believe and tend to reinforce they shouldn't be compared, nor are they competing with one another just because they're on different platforms.

I'm fine with people comparing them I suppose, I just think they are pretty much equal. At their core they are pretty much the same thing, they've just been garnished with different bits. Forza has some better bits, GT has some better bits.

 

[dylansan]

I'm fine with people comparing them I suppose, I just think they are pretty much equal. At their core they are pretty much the same thing, they've just been garnished with different bits. Forza has some better bits, GT has some better bits.

I see your point, but I still think there's more of a difference. GT is always more detail oriented, and Forza is always more "spice" or feature oriented, in my opinion.

 

[Joey D]

I see your point, but I still think there's more of a difference. GT is always more detail oriented, and Forza is always more "spice" or feature oriented, in my opinion.

GT looks prettier, I'll give it that in spades. But in the end, I still think they are very similar and one isn't any better than the other when it comes to game play and physics.

I do however still think the Forza series is more fun just because I get to build mad cars and paint them up however I like. But a game being more fun doesn't really make it better in terms of gameplay.

 

[niky]

Maybe you meant "doesn't make it better in terms of realism"... if it's more fun... then the gameplay is better for you.

It's a personal thing, though... some people like Burgers, others like Hot Dogs. Both are filling.

You are absolutely right. Real life Camaro

You know, if you make Camaro model right, it doesn't mean it starts driving immediately like real Camaro in game. More is needed

So... have you driven a real-life Camaro on track, to make such a statement?

Because I haven't. And what I've described is how the Camaro performs in-game compared to the Skyline.

I've driven dozens of cars in the past few years for tests, some of which were in the GT series. And I've always been satisfied with how close to real-life GT has been. It's not perfect, but then no console racer is.

GT4 doesn't seem realistic if you've never driven on the racetrack, but once you've experienced the full range of chassis behaviors the track can elicit, power-oversteer... power-understeer... momentum understeer... snap-oversteer... you begin to appreciate how much work goes into a game like this... with the exception of snap-oversteer (which is a bit too difficult to achieve with front-heavy cars in the game) and three-wheeling, GT4 has everything down pat.

Of course... you can keep driving your Corolla or Eclipse or whatever on a public road and believe you've experienced everything the car has to offer... but you haven't. Not by a long-shot.

Go educate yourself

http://www.lfs.net/?page=downloads

With a game that doesn't have a Camaro modelled by the development team? Not even a Camaro renamed as something else due to licensing restrictions? That's a bit of a reach. Your arguments are starting to wear thin...

(Not stating that there's anything wrong with LFS... as it's a very good sim... but how can LFS satisfy a Camaro versus GT-R argument?)

You still haven't proven that there is no difference between a Camaro and a Skyline in GT4 except for braking... as you have stated... a youtube video comparison? Screencaps? Analysis of laps? Nothing. Either put up or (you-know-what) up. On this board, claims require proof. It's the rule.

You can load how realistic GT 4 and how great the physics is to 4-th grade kids. Maybe they will believe you

Getting pretty incoherent, too.

Do you mean:

"You can explain how realistic GT4 is and how great the physics are to 4th grade kids... Maybe they will believe you"

Since they don't teach physics in Grade 4... anywhere... I doubt they will. You certainly don't. ...oh... I mean... LOL.

 

[otago]

but how can LFS satisfy a Camaro versus GT-R argument?

Very simple. LFS has physical model of for example RWD front engine car, and has it right.

Next step is to make every RWD front engine car in game drives like real one, which depends on weight distribution, suspension setup, tyre sizes on front/rear axe. It could make a big difference, for example latest Camaro undesteer and a lot.

GT4 physics was absolutely 100% completely different from LFS/rFactor/GTR/GTL/GPL/Forza. It's not only most of GT4 RWD cars did exactly opposite what they do in simulators above, even GT4 firm sliding (what you call "understeer") is same 100% different from all this games. Cars do nothing like this in any simulator.

Saying GT4 was a simulator is same as saying LFS/rFactor/GTR/GTL/GPL/Forza have no even distant relation to any simulation. You don't have choices.

So what are you saying is that all PC simulators are not simulators at all. Also you are saying that GT5P is not too much simulator as well cause it's a halfway between GT4 and LFS/rFactor/GTR/GTL/GPL/Forza, and in your logic it means it went pretty far from realistic GT4 physics.

 

[Eric.]

Very simple. LFS has physical model of for example RWD front engine car, and has it right.

Have you driven it in real life?

 

[otago]

Have you driven it in real life?

Where I said anything about real life? I was talking about simulators.

This arguments like "I drove once my father's car to Wallmart and it drives exactly same as in game X" means nothing.

Take for example Top Gear episode "GT4 vs real life". First Clarkson drove NSX on PS2, understeering like hell and mashing all buttons in turns together.

Then he drove NSX in real life, oversteering like hell and carefully braking and throttling (didn't help too much, obviously Clarkson is not a race driver)

Conclusion? GT4 is more real life. LOL

Car in game drove exactly opposite as it did in real life.

 

[killanite]

Where I said anything about real life? I was talking about simulators.

This arguments like "I drove once my father's car to Wallmart and it drives exactly same as in game X" means nothing.

Take for example Top Gear episode "GT4 vs real life". First Clarkson drove NSX on PS2, understeering like hell and mashing all buttons in turns together.

Then he drove NSX in real life, oversteering like hell and carefully braking and throttling (didn't help too much, obviously Clarkson is not a race driver)

Conclusion? GT4 is more real life. LOL

Car in game drove exactly opposite as it did in real life.

And if you happened to read Clarkson's article on this you would of read that he thought the exact opposite of what you think.

Here's the article again for you almighty one otago! http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article552096.ece

 

[otago]

And if you happened to read Clarkson's article on this you would of read that he thought the exact opposite of what you think.

I read another Clarkson's article:

...in a column for The Sunday Times, Clarkson had this to say about GT4:

“ I called Sony and asked it to send me a game chip already loaded with the 700 computer cars. And I am in a position to test out its claims because, unlike most people, I really have driven almost all of them in real life.

There are mistakes. The BMW M3 CSL, for instance, brakes much better on the road than it does on the screen. And there’s no way a Peugeot 106 could outdrag a Fiat Punto off the line. But other than this, I’m struggling: they’ve even managed to accurately reflect the differences between a Mercedes SL 600 and the Mercedes SL 55, which is hard enough to do in real life.

There’s more, too. If you take a banked curve in the Bentley Le Mans car flat out, you’ll be fine. If you back off, even a little bit, you lose the aerodynamic grip and end up spinning.

That’s how it is. This game would only be more real if a big spike shot out of the screen and skewered your head every time you crashed. In fact that’s the only real drawback: that you can hit the barriers hard without ever damaging you or your car. Maybe they’re saving that for GT5. Perhaps it’ll be called Death or Glory."

 

[killanite]

I'm sorry? You're quoting everything that he thought was right. If you'd read properlly you would of noticed him saying the only two problems are the bmw csl and the peugeot 106. Or perhaps I'm overestimating your ability to read things since you seem to selectively read most posts.

 

[otago]

If you'd read properlly you would of noticed him saying the only two problems are the bmw csl and the peugeot 106.

No way! There are two problems in GT4. I thought it is perfect!

So the guy showed to the whole world that NSX (and almost every RWD car in game) is not just a bit off, it's just opposite to real life. Even in GRID they oversteer how it supposed to be. Even in PGR 4 hard braking/throttling inside the turn will kick you off. Not in GT4

Then first thing I mentioned playing GT4 is how sound off. Real M3 E46 doesn't sound like this, has nothing to do with GT4 sound. Clarckson never seen M3 E46 or what?

What is he talking about?

 

[Leonidae]

okay, kids, calm it down again. These are still just games.. Although I know exactly where my loyalties lay.

 

[killanite]

No way! There are two problems in GT4. I thought it is perfect!

So the guy showed to the whole world that NSX (and almost every RWD car in game) is not just a bit off, it's just opposite to real life. Even in GRID they are oversteer how it supposed to be.

Then first thing I mentioned playing GT4 is how sound off. Real M3 E46 doesn't sound like this, has nothing to do with GT4 sound. Clarckson never seen M3 E46 or what?

What is he talking about?

So you're claiming you have more knowledge and experience about cars than Jeremy Clarkson? okay I won't even bother anymore with you clown.

And yet again you provide no proof to back your arguments up but rather just ignore other people's proof against you.

 

[otago]

So you're claiming you have more knowledge and experience about cars than Jeremy Clarkson?

So is understeer opposite to oversteer? Yes, it is

Did Jeremy Clarkson oversteer with real life NSX? Yes, in every single turn. Once he even completely lost the car

Did Jeremy Clarkson oversteer with GT4 NSX? Nope. Not even once. He undesteer all the way. I did the same in game on same Laguna Seca: I couldn't oversteer even on purpose trying hard.

So what does it mean in your opinion?

 

[killanite]

So is understeer opposite to oversteer? Yes, it is

Did Jeremy Clarkson oversteer with real life NSX? Yes, in every single turn. Once he even completely lost the car

Did Jeremy Clarkson oversteer with GT4 NSX? Nope. Not even once. He undesteer all the way. I did the same in game on same Laguna Seca: I couldn't oversteer even on purpose trying hard.

So what does it mean in your opinion?

Okay then. I just turned on my PS2. Went to time trial in GT4 and picked the NSX at laguna seca with N2 tyres and no aids. Wanna know what happened in the first corner? oversteer.. quite easily too. just because that little 10 minute video on top gear (which only showed about a minute of GT4 footage) showed understeer doesnt mean the whole drive consisted of it.
Furthermore, Clarkson stated afterwards that the game was a good representation of the real thing and that the only major difference is the fear factor.

 

[otago]

Okay then. I just turned on my PS2. Went to time trial in GT4 and picked the NSX at laguna seca with N2 tyres and no aids. Wanna know what happened in the first corner? oversteer..

Look at window, no pink elephants? Just to check

Seriously, I could get some oversteer in GT4 only trying hard on purpose during no less than 30 seconds (except several "special" cars like Toyota MR 1986).

This guy's efforts to get some oversteer or spin with overpowered muscle car is very good representation of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPfCoHErp1c&feature=fvw

 

[Murcie_LP640]

I support killanite's opinion here. GT4 defaults any car's settings to sports tyres unless it's a racing car, which would not only explain why JC experienced understeer rather than oversteer in the game, and also why when you switch to Normal tyres (ie. the tyres that are more equal to the car's real life counterparts), killanite experienced oversteer like JC did in real life.

And as for the actual on-topic discussion, Forza 3 from what I've seen of it actually seems to come across as a majorly enlarged Need For Speed SHIFT. Simulator racing for newbs. And in that comparison, F3 would splash SHIFT and splash it thoroughly. As for F3 vs. Gran Turismo, they are quite different. F3 comes across more as a racing simulator whereas GT is a DRIVING simulator. Doesn't sound different but it is. Also going by Forza 2, I swore I was playing an Xbox 360-exclusive version of Need For Speed ProStreet with a few more cars and tracks. The point is that I quite agree with the title of this topic. Forza 3 can't really be compared with GT5.

 

[niky]

Very simple. LFS has physical model of for example RWD front engine car, and has it right.

I drive a rear-wheel drive truck. I'm under no illusion that it drives anything like a Camaro.

I repeat... what does modelling a totally unrelated car have to do with how well GT4 depicts a Camaro?

Understand this. You're making some very... very serious claims here. With no evidence to back them up.

Next step is to make every RWD front engine car in game drives like real one, which depends on weight distribution, suspension setup, tyre sizes on front/rear axe.

Which GT4 does, just like every other "sim".

It could make a big difference, for example latest Camaro undesteer and a lot.

Which has what to do with the Camaro in GT4, given that they're two completely different cars?

GT4 physics was absolutely 100% completely different from LFS/rFactor/GTR/GTL/GPL/Forza. It's not only most of GT4 RWD cars did exactly opposite what they do in simulators above, even GT4 firm sliding (what you call "understeer") is same 100% different from all this games. Cars do nothing like this in any simulator.

Proof. Now. I'm very interested in seeing proof that no "simulator" models understeer.

Saying GT4 was a simulator is same as saying LFS/rFactor/GTR/GTL/GPL/Forza have no even distant relation to any simulation. You don't have choices.

You obviously don't. And I quote myself:

(Not stating that there's anything wrong with LFS... as it's a very good sim... but how can LFS satisfy a Camaro versus GT-R argument?)

Unless you show that the Camaro, in each of the games given, acts completely differently, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

So what are you saying is that all PC simulators are not simulators at all.

I said nothing of the sort. I even mentioned a few pages or threads ago that the best PC sims are miles better than anything on consoles.

Microsoft Flight Simulator may not be as detailed, physics-wise, as a multi-million dollar Air Force trainer... but does that make it a non-sim?

If so... none of the games we play can truly be called sims. No matter how realistic they might seem.

Also you are saying that GT5P is not too much simulator as well cause it's a halfway between GT4 and LFS/rFactor/GTR/GTL/GPL/Forza, and in your logic it means it went pretty far from realistic GT4 physics.

I said nothing of the sort, either. I've said in the GT5P forums that GT5P is much better than GT4. You're the only one claiming that only Pepsi or Coke is a soda drink. And it can't be both. Prove it.

 

[Famine]

Look at window, no pink elephants? Just to check

Seriously, I could get some oversteer in GT4 only trying hard on purpose during no less than 30 seconds (except several "special" cars like Toyota MR 1986).

This guy's efforts to get some oversteer or spin with overpowered muscle car is very good representation of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPfCoHErp1c&feature=fvw

And yet we have an entire forum in the GT4 section for drifting. Makes you think, eh?

 

[G.T.Ace]

I somehow have the feeling that otago forgot to switch off the driving aids in GT4 (i did it sometimes too because you have to do it in the car setup for GT mode).

Seriously, i mean, of course theres an understeer bias, we all know this but it depends on the cars. I can give you a good example for this.
I watched a documentation on TV about american Sportscars and there was also a presentation of the Shelby Cobra 427. There was a guy driving it around a track and showing off its characteristics. After i watched this i took it out for a spin on Mid-Field in GT4 and guess what, it behaved exactly like how the guy explained it. The lift off oversteer, the stability while breaking, etc. It also looked exactly like the real footage in the replay.

Of course it isnt as realistic as in other sims, but the basic physics were great for a console game back then.

 

[KSaiyu]

I'm interested in Otago's thoughts on the physics in the F3 demo since they seem to be the diametric opposite of F2s. I find them to be a definite improvement but seeing as you held Forza 2s in such high regard and seem to struggle with the concept of understeer it would be interesting to see what you've made of it.