Forza3 can't be compared with GT5....
- Thread starter crea
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No vids or pics of cars not oversteering?
That's funny.
I have dozens of pictures of stock, rear-wheel drive cars oversteering in GT4.
And if you look online, you can find numerous drift vids made in GT4.
And those are stock cars, just as in my pics. No tire-mixing or suspension tweaking.
Just because you couldn't... doesn't mean it isn't there. There's a big difference in there.
That's like saying you can't dunk in NBA Live because you played for three hours and couldn't do it... and that the mythical jumping headshot in CounterStrike doesn't exist (well... not anymore... it was still there in the Beta...
).
Still no proof that there's no oversteer in GT4?
Not even a little?
Not even a smidge?
LOL.
That's funny.
I have dozens of pictures of stock, rear-wheel drive cars oversteering in GT4.
And if you look online, you can find numerous drift vids made in GT4.
And those are stock cars, just as in my pics. No tire-mixing or suspension tweaking.
Just because you couldn't... doesn't mean it isn't there. There's a big difference in there.
That's like saying you can't dunk in NBA Live because you played for three hours and couldn't do it... and that the mythical jumping headshot in CounterStrike doesn't exist (well... not anymore... it was still there in the Beta...
).Still no proof that there's no oversteer in GT4?
Not even a little?
Not even a smidge?
LOL.
- 342
- Haifa
- Tomeru
- Tomeru
I thought you played up to 10%?
It means you tried playing it for a couple of days without your putting your heart to it, then quit because you didn't like it.
90% of the RWD cars? What are these numbers you keep throwing? You played all the time that way? What are you saying? Did you play the game, or did you TRY the game?
It means you tried playing it for a couple of days without your putting your heart to it, then quit because you didn't like it.
90% of the RWD cars? What are these numbers you keep throwing? You played all the time that way? What are you saying? Did you play the game, or did you TRY the game?
Scaff
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You are aware that applying full steering lock and then burying the throttle (in the real world or a sim) is just as likely to produce understeer as it is oversteer.
Full steering lock is going to generate a massive slip angle on the front tyres, and unless you can generate a greater slip percentage on the rear tyres (basically getting the rear tyres to a larger yaw angle than the front tyres) the end result will be understeer.
Add in that (again in the real world) most manufacturers specifically set-up suspension to a natural understeer bias on the limit and you quickly find that full steering lock is not the way to generate oversteer at all.
I once again strongly suspect that your knowledge of what is going on dynamically with a car is lacking here (and not for the first time), given that I am also rather concerned with the attitude that you are showing to other members. May I remind you that the AUP does say...
AUP
....something you seem to be forgetting, and as this is not the first time the staff have had to remind you of the AUP, I would strongly recommend that you moderate you tone in future. Failure to do so will see action taken, every one else has been polite and patient with you, the mocking tones you are using do not help your membership here at all.
Scaff
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gt4 had a very poor oversteer model, thought that was a fact 
Of course its possible to drift, but if you don use N tires you must throw the car VERY hard in the corner to get oversteer, If you drive to race you wont even notice oversteer, atleast I dont, except some cars like yellowbird(yeah I dont use assist! )
Of course its possible to drift, but if you don use N tires you must throw the car VERY hard in the corner to get oversteer, If you drive to race you wont even notice oversteer, atleast I dont, except some cars like yellowbird(yeah I dont use assist! )
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It's less a matter of poor oversteer modelling and more a matter of the way they modelled tire adhesion and contact with the ground. And the fact that R-Compounds are very sticky... N and S tires allow lots of oversteer.
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If we're talking about GT4's faults... here are GT4's faults:
The tire adhesion model and the script that keeps the wheels from lifting off the ground (to prevent the wheelie glitch from GT3) severely limit snap oversteer on front-wheel drive and four-wheel drive cars.
These also have an effect on low-speed driving. Donuts aren't possible in GT4, and handbrake drifts at low speeds are near-impossible. J-turns, however, are possible to do as in real-life.
At speed, however, the model feels more natural, more realistic. cars behave much as they do on track, though even at high speeds, snap-oversteer is difficult to achieve on front-wheel drive cars that can do it in real-life without juggling the tires.
Oversteer, however, both momentum induced and power-oversteer, are easy to do on most rear-wheel drive cars in the game that can do them in real-life. And high-speed physics in general are pretty good.
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If we're talking about GT4's faults... here are GT4's faults:
The tire adhesion model and the script that keeps the wheels from lifting off the ground (to prevent the wheelie glitch from GT3) severely limit snap oversteer on front-wheel drive and four-wheel drive cars.
These also have an effect on low-speed driving. Donuts aren't possible in GT4, and handbrake drifts at low speeds are near-impossible. J-turns, however, are possible to do as in real-life.
At speed, however, the model feels more natural, more realistic. cars behave much as they do on track, though even at high speeds, snap-oversteer is difficult to achieve on front-wheel drive cars that can do it in real-life without juggling the tires.
Oversteer, however, both momentum induced and power-oversteer, are easy to do on most rear-wheel drive cars in the game that can do them in real-life. And high-speed physics in general are pretty good.
Well, with such kind of ancient approach - no tire physics, cars are just match boxes affected by G forces - it's still possible to make good game with fun and interesting driving, Porsche Unleashed is a good example.
But PD didn't do even this, the game was boring as hell, same driving cars independent of what they are. No spins or oversteer, just parallel sliding.
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So... "parallel sliding" is not oversteer? What is parallel sliding? My front tires aren't parallel to my rears... my car isn't parallel to the corner... hell... everything seems pretty crossed up to me.
I guess it's stupid of us to try to countersteer out of it, eh? Since it's not oversteer, anyway.
Ever actually... I don't know... drifted anything in real life?
http://bigbigcar.com/ReviewArticle.aspx?id=40
(so it's not my article, but I did the technical tests and drove for the photoshoot)
Spins?
Just because low speed handbrake turns are difficult to impossible due to flaws in the physics engine, doesn't mean you can't do spins once at racing speeds.
Again: your opinion... ≠ ...fact.
And you still haven't explained how the cars drive exactly the same. Laptimes? G-traces? Perchance... videos? Your repetitive tirade is getting... repetitive. And boring.
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Just because GT4, as an older console racer, doesn't have quite the detailed forcefeedback that newer titles do... and doesn't use clever camera tricks to mimic the "feeling of speed" or to convey the sensation of weight transfer doesn't mean that there's no underlying differences in the cars. It's just that you have to rely on other cues when you drive and learn to read the subtle hints in GT4.
As Famine says... he can tell exactly what he's driving if you set him in front of the TV with GT4 already playing. I'm not quite that confident, but if you tell me that I'll be driving two different cars and tell me what the cars are... then stick me in GT4 and make me drive with the dashboard display covered and the sound off, I can tell you after a few corners which is which.
I can also tell the differences between two similar set-ups on the same car in just a lap. (we did this comparison for Scaff in the tuning section before).
The entire tuning section puts your opinion of "no differences" counter to the experiences of dozens of experienced testers over the past three or four years.
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Boring? Matter of opinion. GT3 was more fun because it was less realistic... less understeer... a less detailed braking model... and much easier to drive.
Need For Speed Underground 2 was even more fun. Strictly arcade, but a blast to drive.
GT4 is more boring at the outset, but once you've mastered it, there's a depth there that takes months to uncover and master... which gives it excellent replay value... as the tens of thousands of kilometers some of my in-game cars have covered can attest to.
Of course, I could be wrong. I obviously don't know what I'm talking about, because I've done only 95% of the game, and you've done a whole 10%.
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This is easy.
Obviously any body moving on curve with radius R is affected by force m*V^2/R with direction same as radius.
So this is from where all your parallel slides coming from. The game simply calculates this acceleration and compare it with single number, different for each car and type of tire. If you speed exceed the threshold, car just jump on bigger radius, until your G force will become less than this number.
This produce distinctive GT4 feeling, where there is no real undesteer (car doesn't turn and get out outside by front), no oversteer (car dives inside the turn). Instead car is running in circles with radius depending solely on speed. That's why braking or throttling don't change stability, they change only speed. And that's why all cars drive same, cause this circling doesn't depend on car type, only on speed.
This is the real GT4 physics. Everything else are manual parameters which don't have too much of physics origin.
There are several cars in game which oversteer, like Toyota MR 1986, but it's not real oversteer. In GT4 car just rotating around the center while real oversteer is when rear axe drives car out and it's not just simple rotation around the centre.
This is my impressions about GT4 physics. It doesn't feel anything like other games which really calculate traction and contact spots for every tire, not even distant relation.
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I'm also mystified why otago finds FM2 so superior when every car with stock suspension settings oversteers unrealistically, and you can stop a skid with a little yank on the wheel controller. Not to mention the awful tire sounds which sound more like strangled owls every time I hear them. GAH...
Okay, so GT4 is rather basic and primitive in some aspects to Forza 2 and Prologue. To say the whole thing is crap because you dislike a few details is kind of goofy, when you can still have a pretty darn authentic racing experience with a Logitech wheel controller. In fact, when I got tired of the limited gameplay in Prologue, I didn't fire up Forza 2. Instead, I went back to GT4, and after a quick reacquainting period, enjoyed it immensely. Now I did go back to Forza 2... to paint up some cars, and did a race or two with them to snap some livery pics. But after that?
Back to GT4.
Okay, so GT4 is rather basic and primitive in some aspects to Forza 2 and Prologue. To say the whole thing is crap because you dislike a few details is kind of goofy, when you can still have a pretty darn authentic racing experience with a Logitech wheel controller. In fact, when I got tired of the limited gameplay in Prologue, I didn't fire up Forza 2. Instead, I went back to GT4, and after a quick reacquainting period, enjoyed it immensely. Now I did go back to Forza 2... to paint up some cars, and did a race or two with them to snap some livery pics. But after that?
Back to GT4.
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Wow... so you actually do know physics.
So... the car understeers if you exceed the grip threshold then? Amazing!
So... how does a car in real life understeer? In real life, a car understeers by exceeding the grip threshold while going around curve, thus tracing a bigger and bigger arc through a curve. Gasp! Real-life is unrealistic!
Again... have you actually drifted anything in real life?
Your basic momentum drift is performed by pointing a car at the inside of the curve, working it out so that the arc you trace comes as close as possible to the apex of the corner. All the while, you're fighting the car's inclination to trace a wider arc through the curve by increasing your drift angle and adding power to the rear wheels to keep the car from sliding out.
No car will actually dive to the inside of a turn unless you force it to. In real life... in racing, a race car will usually oversteer into the outside of a turn, unless the stupid driver still has his foot on the gas when he gets all crossed up, in which case his racecar may or may not have enough traction and push his nose into the apex... unless, like Schumacher in qualifying at Monaco, that's actually what you wanted to do in the first place.
That's funny. You still haven't explained my pics:
How is power oversteer only dependent on speed? And that's the Autumn Ring... for those familiar with this chicane section, they'll know that you can't carry any speed at all through those turns.
Elaborate. I'm sure many of us longtime players would like to know what these "manual parameters" are.
Gasp. Oversteer is not oversteer! Wow! So it's not real oversteer because the point of rotation isn't around the front tires? So front-tires don't actually... I don't know... slip? I guess my real-life car is not realistic because I can feel it rotating about an axis just south of my behind... it should obviously rotate around the front tires when it oversteers... fancy that!
Now I've never claimed that GT4 was perfect... but how does GT4's axis-centric physics modelling make oversteer not oversteer?
Let's take this argument to the extreme... so... if I model a tire as having one level of grip over the entire surface, and don't model every individual tread block (for chunking, squirm for each section of tread)... my tire is... not a tire? Double gasp!
And before anyone brings up LFS... does the physics engine actually model, physically, a deformed tire, doing on-the-fly calculations of the weight shift and difference in circumference of the tire from deformation, or does it simplify the tire model so it can actually perform all the calculations in real-time within the computational limits of the PC engine?
I guess it does.
Does this make tire deformation in LFS not tire deformation? The tires are not actual, deforming toruses... they are 48 separate polygonous entities simulating a whole tire. Does a tire flat-spot in discrete, steps of 1:16th the circumference of the total? Obviously not. But you have to simplify the model to match your hardware. So... by your logic... is LFS's tire deformation not tire deformation, because they don't model every square centimeter of the tire individually?
Your impression. I agree that GT4 isn't as good as sims that actually model tire physics fully... but you've claimed, also, that GT4 isn't as good, physics-wise, as NFS5... and I'm still utterly baffled by that, as NFS models even less parameters than GT4 does.
Yeah, we get it, you think that GT4 isn't fun. But to try to justify your opinion by inventing arguments for it that are fundamentally flawed just doesn't cut it, here.
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Now... GT4 isn't the most realistic... but there are reasons for that...
PC sims, many of which are independent products of small development teams, don't usually cater to the mass market GT does... they're free to design their games to cater to the most hardcore of players. And they're on a platform that does nothing but gain power every few months. A PS2 doesn't. A PS2 designed before the turn of the millenium isn't nearly as powerful as a PC built three or four years later... By the end of its shelf life, the PS2 was pretty pathetic in terms of the graphics and computational capabilities versus PCs. Some multi-platform games absolutely stuttered on the PS2 due to this lack. I remember back in 2003 (not coincidentally... the time when Live for Speed came out) giving up on NFS Underground on the PS2 because the game stuttered like mad... it was only later on that EA revised the series to run more smoothly on the PS2, but the PS2 versions could never replicate the full graphical glory of the PC versions we had of the same game. And my PC back then wasn't even a $5,000
gaming job... just a well set-up desktop.
But PD has a knack of keeping their games just the right size for the platform, and are able to deliver 60 fps and fantastic graphics. How? They take shortcuts. Everyone takes shortcuts. It's just console racers need to take more shortcuts than most. Some have been able to do a much better job of physics modelling than GT... notably the rally racers... but they have less on-screen and on-track at the same time... Enthusia was close, but it had its own flaws, too. I was beginning to appreciate it when I stopped using my PS2.
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But to claim that GT4 is not realistic at all, and to claim your proofs in the face of evidence to the contrary? That's just plain... unrealistic.
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LOL You call this physics? It's a topic for 13 years old in school. This is more like real physics:
Of course it was my opinion about GT4, not facts. This comparison topics lead nowhere but provide an opportunity to discuss some interesting questions about cars, racing games, etc.
After all I doubt anybody here will miss both Forza 3 and GT5.
Eric.
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LOL You call this physics? It's a topic for 13 years old in school. This is more like real physics:
Of course it was my opinion about GT4, not facts. This comparison topics lead nowhere but provide an opportunity to discuss some interesting questions about cars, racing games, etc.
After all I doubt anybody here will miss both Forza 3 and GT5.
Alternate content for this post:
"Hey look a bird!"
*everyone looks away*
*Otago changes subject now that everyone has suddenly forgot that he never tried proving any points he was just questioned about*
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Correction. It's physics. Or is physics not physics now if it's taught in high school?
So... why don't you answer my questions, then, instead of sidetracking?
Why is oversteer not oversteer if the central axis of rotation is not directly over one axle? (which, unless you're doing a donut for a drift-show crowd, it never is)
GT4's main fault in regards to oversteer is that it won't let you do exactly that... a donut, because of limitations imposed upon the tire slip model by the anti-roll-over scripting in the game.
Its main fault with understeer is that you can't turn ABS entirely off... so you can't get the brakes fully locked up. But it models understeer just fine.
So... what's wrong with GT4 again? I'm the only one who's actually posting any of GT4's actual faults. You just keep harping on about how you personally couldn't get 90% of the RWD cars in the game to oversteer, even though, by your admission, you've only played 10% of the game.
And how is the lack of donuts equal to no oversteer, even though, by your own admission, some cars actually oversteer?
You claim that 90% of the RWD cars in GT4 don't. Would you like me to post pics of 90% of the RWD cars in the game oversteering? Because you haven't shown anything. At all.
So... why don't you answer my questions, then, instead of sidetracking?
Why is oversteer not oversteer if the central axis of rotation is not directly over one axle? (which, unless you're doing a donut for a drift-show crowd, it never is)
GT4's main fault in regards to oversteer is that it won't let you do exactly that... a donut, because of limitations imposed upon the tire slip model by the anti-roll-over scripting in the game.
Its main fault with understeer is that you can't turn ABS entirely off... so you can't get the brakes fully locked up. But it models understeer just fine.
So... what's wrong with GT4 again? I'm the only one who's actually posting any of GT4's actual faults. You just keep harping on about how you personally couldn't get 90% of the RWD cars in the game to oversteer, even though, by your admission, you've only played 10% of the game.
And how is the lack of donuts equal to no oversteer, even though, by your own admission, some cars actually oversteer?
You claim that 90% of the RWD cars in GT4 don't. Would you like me to post pics of 90% of the RWD cars in the game oversteering? Because you haven't shown anything. At all.
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ItsHim
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I'd also say: nothing at all.
Video games, and that's what we're talking about, are all about user interaction. The game demands user input, the user does what he/she thinks will cause the desired reaction, and the game engine executes the user input and presents the gamer with the result.
If the actual result matches the expected result, the user feels in control.
Some of the expectations come from real life experience, others are built by the game itself and shaped even more by repetitively tackling the same challenges and learning from the outcome. That's your learning curve.
When I first started with the BMW in GT4 I was a bit irritated by the heavy under-steer. My explanation for this is that because GT4 had (and still has) very photorealistic graphics, my brain had to adjust for the lack of felt G-forces.
Eye tells: oh, you're pretty fast going into that corner. Rest of body tells: don't worry, I can't feel nothing, you should be ok.
I've got plenty of mid-powered, high speed real life driving experience, partly because we nutters in Germany still don't have speed limits on a fair amount of Autobahns and partly because I get kindly enough provided with a good range of rental cars.
So yes, without risking life or limb, if you go into a corner too fast, you'll get under-steer because the cars are set up to give you more grip on rear than on the front tyres.
Not enough grip on the front tyres equals under-steer thus running wide. Lift off the throttle, weight gets shifted to the front, more grip, you make the turn.
With FM2, although it initially felt very good indeed, I had two obstacles to tackle.
(a) the default setups were just crap. They learned their lesson with most of the DLC cars, which were much more user friendly (F430 vs F430 Scuderia for example). But still you couldn't use any higher power RWD cars right out of the box because in general they were set up way too stiff. Which most RL sportier cars are NOT to that ridiculous extent.
(b) The modelling of the different drive trains in combination with tyre compounds didn't produce a balanced result. There was far too little grip for RWD cars even on Race Avons compared to too much grip for AWD cars on Sports or even Street tyres. Thus making high powered AWDs in A or S class such a pain.
Now I'm sorry to say, but I always felt that T10 did a textbook approach to modelling characteristics because they didn't have that much experience with driving actual well built and crafted RWD cars in RL I guess.
As much as I love the Chrysler 300C for its looks and vulgarity, if you push it a bit it's just awful. Same goes for the Dodge Charger SRT, which a customer of ours owns. An absolute stunner to look at, insane off the line acceleration. Truely insane. Amazing sound. But that's all it does.
So to conclude my rant:
Usually you get far more under-steer on an ideal road (dry and clean surface). From what I've read in the daily paper, most head on crashes on public roads are caused because one of the cars ran wide in dry conditions. In less than ideal conditions (very wet, icy roads) you'll find far more cars ending up in the ditch due to spinning out.
Both GT4 and FM2 have always ideal conditions.
In FM2 R4 and R3 class felt very good and "right", especially the BMW M3-GTR was my all time favourite because it handled exactly like I expected and gave me the gaming experience I wanted.
But all things considered, PD's approach to modelling over/under-steer felt more true to my experience in RL.
Eric.
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Yet you bring up that you can't do donuts. We know that. Low speed oversteer doesn't work right. However once you're moving at a speed more common to that of a race track, its mostly fine.
Please provide us some proof of what you're trying to state as fact. You got a Ph.D in Physics so you obviously know how to prove something.
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Nope.
The car points in the direction which the steering angle and power input from the rear tires suggests, and it pivots around an imaginary axis.
In a donut, this imaginary axis runs through the inside front tire.
In a powerslide, it runs through some point near the center of the car. This point keeps changing due to weight distribution, weight transfer and grip. (a factor which GT4 models accurately) A car at speed in a drift doesn't pivot around one tire, as they are all slipping.
So... how exactly does GT4 get high speed drifts wrong, again?
For it to be completely broken, it should have no similarity at all to real life. However, many racecar drivers and road testers have praised its similarity to real life, with the caveat that there's no feeling of fear because you won't die if you crash. So... completely broken?
If it's your opinion that it feels like it came from the middle of the 90's, that's your opinion. Of course, you ought to cite what game from the mid-90's feels exactly like GT4...
I won't disagree with you that there were better games in 2005, but the physics engine of GT4 was codified and finalized as early as 2002... and it was built, may I remind you, for a gaming platform that was designed in the 90's and released at the turn of the century.
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"Look! Another bird!"
Depends on which magazines you're talking about.
A lot of road-testers never push more than 8/10ths on the road.
There very few testers who actually flesh out a car's dynamic abilities completely. If you were to believe all the praise for the F360 from many journalists, you would miss the small percentage pointing out the trickiness at the limit... or those who point out the instability of the previous Corvette's rear end in chicanes...
Or even the understeer inherent in AWD versions of the 911... which was especially true of the variant featured as a RUF in GT4.
Of course... you don't just take their word for it. You have to experience at least part of it yourself... drive on the racetrack, at the limit... to recognize which of the motoring community actually understand car behavior completely.
I can't pretend to be the most knowledgeable there is about car behavior, but I'm satisfied that my assessment of suspension behavior and settings in real-life match those of journalists I respect and trust. And that's enough for me.
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