Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

[G.T.Ace]

Just to clarify something.
I didnt want to prove anything with the screenshots, i just found it funny.
That pop-up is almost not visible in motion, the YT cursor just moves to exact that frame, i wanted to go a frame further for the screens, but it didnt let me, it directly jumped 2 seconds.

I didnt want to flame or anything, i just found it funny that YT let me jump to exact this point.

 

[newnikita]

Forza 3 sure will be good enough, considering that was developed on only two years.

But, as I see that we are speaking purely about graphics, I find Polyphony game better refined. Speaking not only on polygons, don't forget that Turn 10 game has eight cars on 720p resolution, and Prologue sixteen cars on 1080p, really important.

 

[phil-t]

I don't think so, clearly seen on the gameplay vids closeups.

Photomode / game menu / ingame:

The wheel lock nut and the textures.

Interesting!

I never thought the difference whould be that big! I thought they would at least use the same models in the whole game as they did with Forza 2, but this is really weird. I mean they lie to the consumer, by presenting these photomode screenshots and make people believe that this is actually ingame.

I guess Turn 10 has just reached the limit of the Xbox360 and only some minor improvements could be made compared to Forza 2 and now they have to present pure photomodematerial to stand a chance against its competitors. And now i even understand why they were loudmouthing so much, they need to get the people hyped for a game they actually know is inferior in so many ways.

Poor Forza 3 fanboys...

LMAO @ people defending FM3 and then failing miserably, acting like they know everything about the game. Makes my day.

Before people just go too OTT on things like this, all these show (and I've defended GT5p on this many many times to people that like to show 'bad' examples of these things) is that T10's LOD system on that video is really poor..

When it comes to wheels and LOD systems, it's common to swap in a completely different 'wheel' image that is designed to make it look like the wheel is going 'fast', you try a side camera view of a car in-game starting slow and getting up to speed, and you can normally spot some of the transitions into the engine using these other 'wheel' models/images as they often don't blend too well. Crucially, as the graphics engine lowers teh LOD for a model, the spinning wheel clearly can go to a really naff low res flat texture.

The shot is actually taken from a Le Mans preview made at the circuit in the Peugeot hospitality suite, this video is on Gamersyde if you want to see it (I wouldn't bother).. the shot comes from what is the hosts (well it's Dan 'Big Mouth' Greenawalt, but don't let that further put you off!) drive around the circuit. He has some 'debug' / special mode where they can switch the AI to driving the car, and can use replay camera positions as well as normal views, and do all weird viewpoints. The exact frame is one from a replay camera (he is driving that very car that suddenly flys by the camera), clearly the model is 'horrendous' and has a terrible LOD at that time.. what ever graphics LOD system they are running is really bad in many places in that demonstration.

Now, in photo mode, like when you pause GT5p and get the lovely zoom views of your cars that have detail level knocked up 5 notches, you would expect it to use it's maximum LOD when rendering the frame, that's a given.. unless we want to argue that all GT5p pause mode lovely shots are BS too?

It doesn't look like FM3 even does this fully for photo-mode, if you look at the taillights I showed earlier of the G37 from two difference photomode pics..

Poor LOD Level (other cars in the render frame)

and max LOD when no other cars are in the render frame..

THe photomode so far actually seems to keep the LOD levels of the scene, so at times the car might look totally rubbish with really low rent details (and that will include decals etc which will go low-res) and at other times it'll look like the bottom image (when the game engine can)..

The reason I am trying to 'defend' the images, is because I've spent a lot of time defending people attacking GT5p with 'missing shadows' and all sorts of bad examples where LOD of the graphics engine dictates that some cars/elements do start missing details or look just a but fuzzy, and I think it's a shame that people do it here.

All I am saying is that
1. The wheel nut missing will be because the lowest LOD for a wheel moving will be a flat texture that is used to make it look like a blurry wheel. If this LOD constantly drops to that in the final game for close up shots of the car, it is indeed pap, and I'll stand there with you and laugh.. However being from a video that used a fly-by replay camera position whilst actually in-game and is from Beta code, I can't ridicule until the final game is out. This also applies to the textures, if the wheel is at it's lowest LOD you'd also expect the decals to be too..

2. LOD is somthing that affects all games, it's what the graphics engine does to ensure framerate stays consistent.. And everyone expects photo-mode to have use max LOD for a static shot, but T10 don't even do this all the time (as per the examples above). So on a technical level I am not doubting that photomode isn't doing anything sinister, if it was total BS, the guys on Beyond 3D that have been looking at the photomode shots would have ripped it to shreds by now.

Just to show how LOD can make things look worse...
If you look at the (I think it still looks excellent) London GT5p shot that was posted earlier as a testement to GT5p's scenery detail.

You will notice that the F40 compared to it's surroundings has poor aliasing, and generally looks 'bad'.. sure it's small in the frame, but judging by the lack of aliasing on the buildings, that model is at a very low LOD at that time.. That is exactly the type of shot I've defended against on other forums when they try to say that in-game GT5p details are really bad.. We all know that if that F40 was right next to the camera in-frame, it'd look ten times less jaggy and really detailed.. Now if the F40 was near the camera and the graphics engine rendered it at min LOD (by mistake/poor design/whatever), it would look hideous..




[disclaimer] Of course there is assumption in my post, I have seen the majority of the the FM3 vids/screen shots, I have some technical understanding of what is going on (I'm no expert).. If the game is released and we can see things that are really ugly that are not 'expected' graphical issues when in motion, I'll certainly stop defending the game[/disclaimer].

 

[WolfRacer543]

*snip*

I agree

There does seem to be some inconsistency in the LOD in different Forza 3 shots which is why I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt until I can see it in the flesh, with my own eyes, the finished project. There's little details they are still fixing in Forza 3, just polishing it up, so stuff like LOD bias could change from the E3 shots to the final game. Stuff like attaching the shadows properly under the car have been done since most of the footage we have has been released.

For me its going to come down to which game looks better when actually playing it, not this photomode, replay mode or close up junk, actual racing, because that's what I'll be doing 90% of the time while playing. That is a battle that is far from won yet.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

Can someone explain what the heck is LOD?

 

[G.T.Ace]

Level of detail, the further an object is away, the less details it has.

 

[Zer0]

When it comes to wheels and LOD systems, it's common to swap in a completely different 'wheel' image that is designed to make it look like the wheel is going 'fast', you try a side camera view of a car in-game starting slow and getting up to speed, and you can normally spot some of the transitions into the engine using these other 'wheel' models/images as they often don't blend too well. Crucially, as the graphics engine lowers teh LOD for a model, the spinning wheel clearly can go to a really naff low res flat texture.

Then why the photomode spinning wheel shows the high LOD and the ingame the low LOD?

Only make sense if Photomode swap to high LOD models.

 

[3Axis]

As far as this competitive comparison turmoil (let's be honest) goes,
I don't believe I'll find myself involved until both games are on the market.
However, Polyphony Digital has been in this business for 12 years so far, and I think they will turn out as the better of the two. But that's more of opinion; Turn10 might get lucky and wow their targeted (and transcending) audience. As far as modeling strategy, PD seems to have it down, if I recall the model images at the time there was news about the "Digital Foundry" analyzing the modeling of GT5P. PD makes a great effort to apply polygonal density where most necessary (corners and bodywork features) On vast plains of body paneling, the polygons can be sparse. We can never say what the developers will do with the models; perhaps they will remodel the cars for the next incarnation? Maybe not. It is uncertain.

A bit tangential: does anyone know if Turn10 uses triangular or quadrilateral meshes in Forza?

-3

 

[ZROC]

LMAO @ people defending FM3 and then failing miserably, acting like they know everything about the game. Makes my day.

I think its funnier to have people like you knocking the game acting like they know everything about the game as well.

 

[sejtur]

I think its funnier to have people like you knocking the game acting like they know everything about the game as well.

How do I act that I know everything about FM3?

I didn't say anything about it... except for that I think that, IMO, GT5 has more detail to the cars.

"people like you"
Ouch.

 

[Oniichan]

How do I act that I know everything about FM3?

I didn't say anything about it... except for that I think that, IMO, GT5 has more detail to the cars.

"people like you"
Ouch.

I agree with you on the detail aspect that GT5P has over Forza 3. While Forza 3 looks awesome (almost up to par now with GT) there are just some technical details they left out. For example;

If you have played GT5P using the Audi R8 you notice the rear spoiler come out of the car and goes back into the car during high speeds and low speeds for downforce. You see the little hole the spoiler sits in as well as all the mechanics that bring the spoiler up.

Now if you watch any of the forza 3 videos using the Audi R8 the wing doesnt come out of the car at all. Its like the spoiler is non existant on their car model. Whats the story there?

Thats a technical aspect that is missing from Forza 3. Though it doesnt make Forza 3 a bad game. Just that there are some things missing from it when its supposed to be "the definative racing game" this generation.

 

[JDMKING13]

I agree with you on the detail aspect that GT5P has over Forza 3. While Forza 3 looks awesome (almost up to par now with GT) there are just some technical details they left out. For example;

If you have played GT5P using the Audi R8 you notice the rear spoiler come out of the car and goes back into the car during high speeds and low speeds for downforce. You see the little hole the spoiler sits in as well as all the mechanics that bring the spoiler up.

Now if you watch any of the forza 3 videos using the Audi R8 the wing doesnt come out of the car at all. Its like the spoiler is non existant on their car model. Whats the story there?

Thats a technical aspect that is missing from Forza 3. Though it doesnt make Forza 3 a bad game. Just that there are some things missing from it when its supposed to be "the definative racing game" this generation.

Yea i agree with you on that, but its also alot of other things such as when watching the driver in GT5P it looks so real, for the fact of you can see him moving, clinching his hands, and one of my fav seeing the TAKATA catch the driver under heavy braking. In forza the seat bealts looked glued to the driver, but forza3 still will be a fun game for some. Im just saying when it comes to high detail GT is king

 

[Kamshaaft]

phil-t's actually spot on, Zer0. If any of you pick up a copy of Forza 2 and carefully examine the wheels on a car in game you will see that part of his point (about them shifting to a much lower detailed model when going fast enough) illustrated. This is actually a good thing where it's in both Forza and Gran Turismo.

 

[3Axis]

phil-t's actually spot on, Zer0. If any of you pick up a copy of Forza 2 and carefully examine the wheels on a car in game you will see that part of his point (about them shifting to a much lower detailed model when going fast enough) illustrated. This is actually a good thing where it's in both Forza and Gran Turismo.

I thought this effect was particularly annoying, especially in GT4. You can see it the most often when doing 1 Lap Magic races; the wheel detail switches quickly. Perhaps a fading transition between wheel LODs would be better.

 

[Terronium-12]

I agree with you on the detail aspect that GT5P has over Forza 3. While Forza 3 looks awesome (almost up to par now with GT) there are just some technical details they left out. For example;

If you have played GT5P using the Audi R8 you notice the rear spoiler come out of the car and goes back into the car during high speeds and low speeds for downforce. You see the little hole the spoiler sits in as well as all the mechanics that bring the spoiler up.

Now if you watch any of the forza 3 videos using the Audi R8 the wing doesnt come out of the car at all. Its like the spoiler is non existant on their car model. Whats the story there?

Thats a technical aspect that is missing from Forza 3. Though it doesnt make Forza 3 a bad game. Just that there are some things missing from it when its supposed to be "the definative racing game" this generation.

I'm glad someone else has mentioned this as well. I've been claiming this around the FM/FM2 forums (yeah, go figure) that vehicles such as the Enzo, the SLR or Carrera GT which have speed-specified airbrakes/spoilers that deploy at 60 mph+ just aren't there, it's as if those vehicles are relying/acting upon "invisible" downforce.

Needless to say, the responses weren't very insightful, nor intelligible netting such responses as there were more important things to focus on. In any case, that's been one of my all-time gripes with the series, that, and taking previous models from an older game and simply touching them up. Yes, it saves time and why start from scratch when it's right there - I get all of that, but the Enzo looks horrible. It appears they're doing it again in FM3 with the Z06.

Hm. As I say that I just realized, rather I'm questioning why they decided to port an older rendering of the Enzo from the original 'Box to the 360 when they could have started from scratch? As long as I've been playing anything "touch-ups" are typically synonymous from game to game on one particular platform, not from one generation to another.

 

[3Axis]

Does Polyphony Digital always remodel the cars for GT? just curious.

 

[Oniichan]

I'm glad someone else has mentioned this as well. I've been claiming this around the FM/FM2 forums (yeah, go figure) that vehicles such as the Enzo, the SLR or Carrera GT which have speed-specified airbrakes/spoilers that deploy at 60 mph+ just aren't there, it's as if those vehicles are relying/acting upon "invisible" downforce.

Needless to say, the responses weren't very insightful, nor intelligible netting such responses as there were more important things to focus on. In any case, that's been one of my all-time gripes with the series, that, and taking previous models from an older game and simply touching them up. Yes, it saves time and why start from scratch when it's right there - I get all of that, but the Enzo looks horrible. It appears they're doing it again in FM3 with the Z06.

Hm. As I say that I just realized, rather I'm questioning why they decided to port an older rendering of the Enzo from the original 'Box to the 360 when they could have started from scratch? As long as I've been playing anything "touch-ups" are typically synonymous from game to game on one particular platform, not from one generation to another.

Yeah there is no reasoning with fanboys.. specially Forza fanboys when it comes to things like this so i wouldnt bother educating them to these things if i was you as you will just be falling in death ears. They have all fallen for the PR talk from T10 and brainwashed with the words "definitive" to open their eyes to any criticism.

 

[3Axis]

Yeah, this quarrel over two games which have not even been released yet is a bit unjustifiable. When the games are released, then one of the two factions will have the bragging rights, I guess...

 

[WolfRacer543]

Yeah there is no reasoning with fanboys.. specially Forza fanboys when it comes to things like this so i wouldnt bother educating them to these things if i was you as you will just be falling in death ears. They have all fallen for the PR talk from T10 and brainwashed with the words "definitive" to open their eyes to any criticism.

I dont think any of my previous arguments have ever stated that FM3 has better car models than GT5P. My argument is that little details like this dont make for good graphics unless they all come together nicely with nice environments and nice LOD scaling. These details can't be properly compared from the low quality videos and screenshots that aren't even from actual racing anyway.

Also its a bit hard to call me a Forza fanboy when I dont even own an Xbox 360 and have no plans of buying one even after FM3 comes out (unless Fanatec surprise me by releasing a wheel in Australia at a reasonable price).

Granted, I dont think FM3 definately will look better than GT5, but I think you are a bit of a fanboy if you aren't willing to give it the benefit of the doubt until the game either comes out or some proper direct feed in game videos are released (not this low res taken with with a video camera junk).

If all you are looking at is purely car models, then GT5P looks better than Forza 3 based on what we have seen thus far... but car models alone dont make nice graphics. As far as environments and overall clarity and sharpness, GT5P isn't much ahead of PC sims that are 3 to 4 years old.

 

[kayman]

I don't know where it keeps coming from to be honest.

"I don't like Xbox... yadda, yadda, yadda" For what good reason is all I ask, just seems ridiculously arrogant and fanboy-like in my opinion. And the redundant retort of funding a monopoly or giving more money to Microsoft is getting dumber as the day goes on as well.

I dont like xbox because MS are stonewalling Logitech, and have possibly some of the worst wheels on the market. Until i can get a g25 equivalent for the xbox360 i wont be buying one as this is the one of the most critical things in a Driving simulation.

 

[Zer0]

phil-t's actually spot on, Zer0. If any of you pick up a copy of Forza 2 and carefully examine the wheels on a car in game you will see that part of his point (about them shifting to a much lower detailed model when going fast enough) illustrated. This is actually a good thing where it's in both Forza and Gran Turismo.

I repeat, I know the effect and means nothing here because if the models were the same the Photomode of that spinning wheel would look with the low LOD(same as the ingame) and not like a different high quality model as it look.

 

[Emet_PL]

I carefully checked that Skyline (Infinity G37) in GT5 a few minutes ago and... model in GT is a bit worse than max LOD model form FM3.. but the difference can be seen only when you look at it very (I mean VERY) close (you can find some places in London track when camera on replays can show you a car from very close).
But.. wheels (rims) are MUCH more detailed and round in FM3.
But.. (again ) if you look at new added cars (F California, Lotus, and GT by Citroen) you can see that wheels in theese are made much better. That gives hope, that in full GT5 all car models will be made a bit better than in GT5.

ps. Sorry for my bad english...
I hope you can understand what I was trying to say

 

[Oniichan]

I dont think any of my previous arguments have ever stated that FM3 has better car models than GT5P. My argument is that little details like this dont make for good graphics unless they all come together nicely with nice environments and nice LOD scaling. These details can't be properly compared from the low quality videos and screenshots that aren't even from actual racing anyway.

Also its a bit hard to call me a Forza fanboy when I dont even own an Xbox 360 and have no plans of buying one even after FM3 comes out (unless Fanatec surprise me by releasing a wheel in Australia at a reasonable price).

Granted, I dont think FM3 definately will look better than GT5, but I think you are a bit of a fanboy if you aren't willing to give it the benefit of the doubt until the game either comes out or some proper direct feed in game videos are released (not this low res taken with with a video camera junk).

If all you are looking at is purely car models, then GT5P looks better than Forza 3 based on what we have seen thus far... but car models alone dont make nice graphics. As far as environments and overall clarity and sharpness, GT5P isn't much ahead of PC sims that are 3 to 4 years old.

Think you misunderstood me. I wasnt calling you or anyone on this forum a Fanboy. I was referring to fanboys in general.

Also at no point did i say FM3 will be bad. I was just pointing out little things that are obmitted from the "definitive" racing sim. I know FM3 will be good as its bringing alot of new things to the console genre that has only been seen on PC sims. Competition is great and helps the industry improve. FM3 is competition for GT (even if PD dont realise it yet) and we will see vast improvements in the next installations to come.

 

[phil-t]

I repeat, I know the effect and means nothing here because if the models were the same the Photomode of that spinning wheel would look with the low LOD(same as the ingame) and not like a different high quality model as it look.

But at the end of the day, it's photomode, and you expect it to render with max LOD (and as seen earlier, they don't even do that properly), that is 'normal'.. all games do it, GT5p does it, we understand it's not 100% the detail level to be expected in-game, but it's not some sinister point of ridicule either..

On the wheel subject, I do know other games that use a different rendering technique for photo mode (PGR series). But this is only based on the same wheel model that is used when the wheels are stationary just made to look more realisitic in-motion (and therefore more detailed).
But it's a grey area, if the photo-mode shot was taken of a static car, the wheels would look very very close to those in-game as the wheel will be a straight render of the model.

In fact, if you look at the game starting in that vid, when it's counting down it renders the grid and zooms into the wheel, which is as highly detailed as any photo shot they've released.

Also, not all cars suffer so badly in that video, the car with the DELL livery has 3D hub sections even with the wheel at high speed.

Lets wait for the game (it comes with the same photo-mode alledgedly), I'm sure more 'evidence' will be seen then, but it's hard to say what LOD levels are going to be used from an early build of the game.

 

[Zer0]

Lets wait for the game (it comes with the same photo-mode alledgedly), I'm sure more 'evidence' will be seen then, but it's hard to say what LOD levels are going to be used from an early build of the game.

I agree but is not too hard to see that they are not using the same high LOD models on the gameplay as T10 members stated many times on the forums.

 

[phil-t]

I agree but is not too hard to see that they are not using the same high LOD models on the gameplay as T10 members stated many times on the forums.

I have no doubt the models are the 'same', it's just the variance of LOD that the game engine renders these to at different times that is the only aspect you can call in to question.

If you look at the start of the race, the cars are rendered on the grid with a high LOD and those models seem to be of the same calibre as further on in-game.

You are convinced T10 are 'lying', but I really don't think they are, in the same way I don't think PD are 'lying' because the paused/staged screen shots have a higher level of detail then when actually playing..

It's not a big issue, it can be proven, but unfortunately the material supplied so far with all the other media/videos around makes it insufficient at this time..

Still, I totally share your concern at the big difference in detail you can get between photo-mode and worst case in-game.

 

[Zer0]

If you look at the start of the race, the cars are rendered on the grid with a high LOD and those models seem to be of the same calibre as further on in-game.

My thoughts are that only your car has that quality ingame because the initial closeups before the race, once the camera change and the race start you can clearly see that this level of detail is not the same on the others cars.

You are convinced T10 are 'lying', but I really don't think they are, in the same way I don't think PD are 'lying' because the paused/staged screen shots have a higher level of detail then when actually playing..

You have any proof? to me it looks exactly the same:

 

[paskowitz]

Oh snap. Thats pretty amazing right there.

 

[hardvibes]

standing ovation

 

[phil-t]

My thoughts are that only your car has that quality ingame because the initial closeups before the race, once the camera change and the race start you can clearly see that this level of detail is not the same on the others cars.


You have any proof? to me it looks exactly the same:

<load of images>

Good shout on the in-game shots, I will happily admit that yes, you can get max LOD renders of the cars whilst in-game!

But I think you are missing the actual point. I love GT5p, I love playing it, I love the graphics, however at times, I get this type of thing..

This is when GT5 can lower it's LOD, and starts to look bad, I often see jaggies/shadows going awry when playing.

Now in the FM3 example, because there is a video of an early build of their game, and you find some really low-rent, low LOD screen grabs from a video, you are applying the logic that they are lying about their models which you say are really poor in-game based on that worst case..

When FM3 is launched, and you can get the car's to be as close as you have on your images, and be stationary etc, with just 1 or 2 cars on screen, then we can see what LOD they render the models at, You can't know for sure what LOD level is the max used in-game until someone can 'stage' the same scenario's as above, if you can get the cars close enough in FM3 so they fill the frame, and you can see if the headlights for example are of the same LOD as the photo-mode shots, then we will know with some conviction if they are lying or not.. To jump to conclusions right now would be the same as people jumping to conclusions based on that F40 screenshot..

that is all that is being said..

But still, loving those shots, are they yours, if so, do you mind if I use them next time I get people flaming the PD/GT logo'd shots where DOF is added and people swear these are bull shots?




End of the day, I'm on your side when it comes to GT5 and it's car models, they are superior to FM3 in many ways.. I just don't feel we have the right evidence to just condemn the model/photomode stuff until we can get to see some proper in-game tests such as above!..

If you feel the other way, that's fine, it's a minor point at this stage, and so easily proved later on..