Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

[Pingwhen]

just wanted to be post 2011. this thread is EPIC HA HA HA HA

 

[Tenacious D]

Just trying to say that some of you look stupid(with all the fanboy talk), and you probably don't know it because your blinded with love...

I'd say you are just looking far too hard for reasons to hate them.

Wow... this warrants a response from an avowed GT fanboy.

You two can't be serious. You give people here grief because they adore a game too much, and look down their noses at another.

And yet you have freaking Turn 10 developers that act worse in some respects than some of the worst smacktards here??

Double standard off the port bow! Good golly molly, hypocricy much...

 

[niky]

Turn10 has a far closer relationship to that forum than PD has to this one. It make sense that they would be stricter with content.

Obviously... this isn't an official forum.

I will say that rabbid fanboyisim is accepted and almost encouraged here which I don't find the same in that Forza forum. I will say that I do enjoy this forum more though.

You haven't read the hundreds of thousands of words written by senior members and even moderators moaning and bemoaning the AI and physics engine of Gran Turismo 4... and the incredibly nitpicky dissection of same physics engine in various threads... have you? Or the endless discussions of GT5P physics, bugs and exploits? Before you hurl accusations, a deep data dive into the Gran Turismo archives is in order.

The issue I sense is that the GT fanboys have had a shock with GT5 and are lashing out to save face. The Forza fanboys did the same when some bad screenshots started surfacing. The funny thing is that they don't think they are doing the same thing.

Lashing out? By posting a thread entitled "Cut PD some slack", and not a thread entitled "GT5 is way better than Forza3, with racer testimonials"? Granted, you'll see a lot of fanboys here... hell, you see immature people everywhere on the net. But we also have interesting and relevant debates and arguments here, as well. I don't play GT as much as I used to, but I still come to GTP everyday, because it's actually one of the most mature places on the net. (you won't believe how many 13-year old idiots you'll find even on supposedly "mature" automotive enthusiast boards)

-

The only way you'll get a ban on this forum is for lying, trolling and abusive behavior. Lying is easy. It's misrepresentation... pretending you're Roger Penske when you're not. Trolling is harder. In fact, you not only have to troll. You have troll repeatedly and obviously and receive dozens of warnings regarding trolling and abusive behavior.

Post countless posts that incite flamewars, misrepresent your trollish opinion as fact (which is lying, as well), and taunt other members with your trollish ways.

And even then, you get a second chance. Lord knows how long it took for some people here to get banned.

But there... posting about a competitors' product will get you banned? Even if said thread is an excuse for your forum regulars to explain how Forza3 is better than GT5 (look! They only have 170 cars with damage! Hahahaha!)... that's just...

 

[FyreandIce]

I see it entirely different because currently the whole online racing world is buzzing with the news/videos of GT5.

Bit of an overstatement dont you think? Only forums pertaining to GT5 seem to be "buzzing" but that said I am eager to see some previews from non biased websites like SRT and such.

As for Turn 10. Well i've been posting on the forza forums for many yrs now and I shall tell you exactly why GT5 cannot be mentioned but we can post about Forza on here. The reason is FEAR! Im not going to beat around the bush but tell it how it is!

You are biased no matter where you post. I see no fear from T10. That thread was locked because of 2 reasons. 1, it was flame baiting and 2, it was a repeat thread. (Maybe a third where the op was a known troll)

Just the EU sales of GT5 will outsell FM3 worldwide sales.

How is that a fact? Small facts are that ~10% of PS2 owners bought GT4 (can't remember exact figures) and there were 120 odd million PS2s sold. Take that same logic (just like you are trying to do) and GT5 will only sell around 2.5 million copies. (10% of PS3 sales) So please just wait for official sales figures before making such claims.

You could see this fear in the way Turn 10 presented FM3 at E3. How many times did they refer to their competition with statements such as "best looking racing game on any console". Now fair enough your going to promote your game but the constant references to their competition did nothing more than show their fear. You then had Che the community manager trying to bribe members to vote for a meaningless poll with a free unicorn car which backfired on them. The image of Turn 10 has certainly taken a knock because many disliked the E3 presentation and many disliked the bribe. Im frankly amazed Che is still the Turn 10 community manager!!

I see no fear in T10's E3 presentations. All I see is them talking up their game just like any developer does. Also, I agree with the "bribe" for votes.

This post isn't me being a fanboy just posting some facts. Based on previous GT sales, FM sales you would estimate that GT5 will outsell FM3 x3/4. So the reason why Turn 10 don't like GT5 being mentioned is because they have alot more to lose i.e sales of FM3.

Read above, also, stating false information as "fact" is against the AUP

 

[TwentyValve]

i've been watching this thread for some time and finnaly i have enough time ot comment. i regularly stop by here to check for news on the new game. when i am done here, i go over to Turn 10"s site to find out any new info on that game.
from what i have seen the FM site is poorly moderated and the Forza fans can dish it out but can't take it. the best example is the epic bable from Dan at E3 where he puts down PD. PD fans comment back saying how unfair and wrong it was of Dan to say that. Turn 10 fans simply say too bad, Dan is the man. shortly after EA anounces NFS Shift and say its better th an FM3. you would think hell froze over by seeing the reaction from the FM fans. when the table is turned its bloody murder. another good example is when a freelance reporter that works with Top Gear said he didn't like a few things was imeatately marked as bias. he's freelance, how can he be bias?
all in all what i see is that here the mods contribute to the threads regularly showing a healthy interest in the site, over there the only time a mod posts is to explain why a thread is beig locked. its as if they just don't care.
for the record i own a PS3 and 360 and will be buying both games. i also defend both games when needed.

 

[The_Paladin]

The Forza Forum is prety much a vehicle for turn 10 to put out info abou it's products, which is fine, great in fact, theres a steady stream of info from the devs straight to the fanbase. Compared with info from the GT devs the Forza devs put them to shame.....

They also use the forum to LISTEN their fans, which is a HUGE difference with Polyphony Digital, thats why you see cockpit view, the mustand Fox body, the skyline r33 in Forza 3. Thats one of the main differences between Forza and GT, the developer is interested in the community, its one of the main focus of the whole series.
In many ways i feel that Kazunori is making a game for himself and Dan is making a game for us, the car/racing fans in general, thats why i like Forza so much. Take for example the inclusion of nascar, is not in the game because fans want it and tell him that, its because he went to a race and saw the whole thing with his own eyes, then he though it would be a good idea, i think its the same thing about many aspects like the colision physics, the AI, the skidmarks, the release date (he doesnt give a damn keep us waiting), if he doesnt think is important then its not, and could stay years unchanged.

If PD listen their fans better i guess some of the features we have now would have been in the past, this doesnt mean i dont love GT but in GT4 i felt really dissapointed with the lack of evolution and many ways. Im very excited at GT5, i see evolution, some changes (looks like the horrible collision physics are finally gone)

Overall i feel that Forza franchise have been a great thing for GT, its been like a catalyst to make Gran Turismo evolve, competition is always good for us. I see a bright future for both games.
Now polyphony only need to give me a release date so i can buy the PS3.

As for fanboys fights... you will see them in any side, platform and color.

 

[Terronium-12]

You know, I can agree (in my opinion) with pretty much everything you just said, but the most important (unimportant?) thing is this isn't the "official" Gran Turismo forum. I believe that's over at the Sony forum somewhere. Whether or not they or someone speaking for PD at the very least is interactive with the members there is an entirely different story as I don't know myself.

It's subjective in the end, but there's a point nonetheless.

 

[niky]

Again... to add... we don't know whether or not PD listens to the fans... simply because we aren't the only fans out there.

Most of PD's crew is Japanese. They speak japanese. They write japanese. They think japanese. Whether or not they actually interact with their japanese audience and ask their opinions on things or ask for feedback for things that need to be fixed, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else here who doesn't speak japanese or belong to the japanese Gran Turismo forums knows.

It's very easy to claim someone's not paying attention to you if he can't understand a word you say... ...well, half of them, anyway.

 

[Black Chamber]

I Photo-shopped amar212's original to reflect the current standing between the two games:

 

[Raitziger]

You should edit GT5 visual damage to "on some cars" from partial.

 

[Black Chamber]

The hilarity never ends, you can't even look for new information on FM3 without running into the occasional FM3/GT5 thread without someone being called a fanboy, I swear to, well you know...

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/2867205.aspx

Fifteen posts down someone accuses the OP of possibly being biased because "Metal Gear" is apart of the identity.

The only just thing said in the thread is "stats and actual gameplay are two different things..."

LOL!

I suppose I am infamous now, huh?

That was me that posted that on the Forza forums.

"Metal Gear Matt" is/was my gamertag and I am a HUGE Metal Gear fan. In fact, my screen name "Black Chamber" is from a Metal Gear game - "Metal Gear: Ghost Babel" for the GameBoy Color. It is the name of the group of villains you fight against, kind of like "Dead Cell" from MGS2. I just like the sound of it.

I did it as an experiment to see just how rude the Forza forums would become with an honest comparison between the two games. You see how far that went.

What irritates and puzzles me the most, is that not only was I banned [I still can't figure that out], but Che Chou edited my comparison list out of each and every post in the thread.

That makes me think that Turn 10 and Mrs. Chou are scared by the numbers Gran Turismo 5 puts up.

 

[Grandi]

I am a HUGE Metal Gear fan..

You're not alone, mate

I read through the thread and agree with the statement presented that the reaction by the staff there was overdone. However, as neutral as your thread was, I would refrain from any further posts of the kind, as friction is inevitably induced in these situations. Even when with the intention to avoid provocation, someone always takes it that way.

One thing I spotted from the forum was positive feedback directed at a GT community (presumably GTPlanet or another well-known forum). For those views to exist, I am sincerely happy. We have to keep in mind, though, that GTPlanet isn't associated with PD or Sony for that matter. As Gran Turismo -minded and -connected as this forum is, it is still a user community rather than a direct developer channel.

Keep up the good posts here on GTP 👍

-K

 

[phil-t]

I Photo-shopped amar212's original to reflect the current standing between the two games:

The problem with lists are
1. You can omit/choose your criteria carefully to suit your own agenda
2. There is no qualitative criteria, just quantitative which can be very misleading.

To use that list as some 'proof' that one game is better then another is borderline fanboyism..

 

[phil-t]

LOL!

I suppose I am infamous now, huh?

That was me that posted that on the Forza forums.

"Metal Gear Matt" is/was my gamertag and I am a HUGE Metal Gear fan. In fact, my screen name "Black Chamber" is from a Metal Gear game - "Metal Gear: Ghost Babel" for the GameBoy Color. It is the name of the group of villains you fight against, kind of like "Dead Cell" from MGS2. I just like the sound of it.

I did it as an experiment to see just how rude the Forza forums would become with an honest comparison between the two games. You see how far that went.

What irritates and puzzles me the most, is that not only was I banned [I still can't figure that out], but Che Chou edited my comparison list out of each and every post in the thread.

That makes me think that Turn 10 and Mrs. Chou are scared by the numbers Gran Turismo 5 puts up.

So you say that you went over to troll and see what reaction you could stir up on a developers forum, and you think it was 'clever'..?

Dear, oh dear..


If anyone is really labouring under some weird apprehension that T10 are 'scared' of GT5 and won't allow discussion on their forums because of it, you really are barking up the wrong tree..

The mere fact that some go to such silly lengths and can't understand the irony it all of this is incredulous.

 

[killanite]

... is borderline fanboyism..

But what isn't these days?.. I could say I enjoy eating pie more than I enjoy eating cake and someone who disagrees will come and call me a fanboy. It's ridiculous

Just cause someone favours something over another and chooses to tell people about it, doesn't mean they are a fanboy. it means the very human nature of CHOICE and preference.

 

[phil-t]

But what isn't these days?.. I could say I enjoy pie more than I like cake and someone who disagrees will come and call me a fanboy. It's ridiculous

You may not be aware that having an opinion and being a fanboy are not mutually exclusive.

If your opinion is such that you will post misleading information that is skewed to further your own agenda, then you are acting like a fanboy..

Simple as that.. it may be more prevalent these days, but that's hardly an excuse is it?

 

[Famine]

The bottom line is, you are just now arguing for the sake of arguing (I recognise this, as it's one of my primary tactics )

Not at all. I'm restating the initial point which was that rather than addressing the problem of people breaking their rules, the FM.net staff prefer to ban anyone who talks about GT5 which isn't against their rules.

1. The OP was in the FM3 sub-forum.

The thread was in the Misc forum when Che intervened.

2. The thread was actually littered with Fanboy comments.

Flaming and abuse is against their rules, talking about GT is not.

3. The thread was not locked and a ban threatened because of talking about GT in a miscellaneous forum section.

No-one who broke their rules was threatened with a ban. Someone who didn't break their rules was.

It's not a case of someone trying to get one over on you, we all make assumptions and mistakes sometimes, or perhaps don't fully explain our motivations for our comments in our posts, but as far as I can see, the issue has been addressed, the worst we can say is that moderation on FM.NET is inconsistent, but the actual original insinuation did not bear out.

I insinuated nothing. I did state that it was horrible moderation.

I'm also waiting to find out what "obvious prejudice" I have.

 

[TECHNIKRS4]

LOL!

I suppose I am infamous now, huh?

That was me that posted that on the Forza forums.

"Metal Gear Matt" is/was my gamertag and I am a HUGE Metal Gear fan. In fact, my screen name "Black Chamber" is from a Metal Gear game - "Metal Gear: Ghost Babel" for the GameBoy Color. It is the name of the group of villains you fight against, kind of like "Dead Cell" from MGS2. I just like the sound of it.

I did it as an experiment to see just how rude the Forza forums would become with an honest comparison between the two games. You see how far that went.

What irritates and puzzles me the most, is that not only was I banned [I still can't figure that out], but Che Chou edited my comparison list out of each and every post in the thread.

That makes me think that Turn 10 and Mrs. Chou are scared by the numbers Gran Turismo 5 puts up.

Why even go over there anyway?
Peoplw like you annoy me.👎

 

[amar212]

To use that list as some 'proof' that one game is better then another is borderline fanboyism..

I will back up this since this list was NOT made up in intention to "prove which game is better" but in order to showcase the technical and content-wise differences after small amount of info leaked after E3 on both sides.

Using it for any kind of "proving this or that regarding actual quaility of any title" is simply dishonorable intention.

 

[phil-t]

I will back up this since this list was NOT made up in intention to "prove which game is better" but in order to showcase the technical and content-wise differences after small amount of info leaked after E3 on both sides.

Using it for any kind of "proving this or that regarding actual quaility of any title" is simply dishonorable intention.

I don't doubt that may have been your intention, but however others are then using this in a completely different light... That is all really.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

How is that a fact? Small facts are that ~10% of PS2 owners bought GT4 (can't remember exact figures) and there were 120 odd million PS2s sold. Take that same logic (just like you are trying to do) and GT5 will only sell around 2.5 million copies. (10% of PS3 sales) So please just wait for official sales figures before making such claims. I see no fear in T10's E3 presentations. All I see is them talking up their game just like any developer does. Also, I agree with the "bribe" for votes.

Read above, also, stating false information as "fact" is against the AUP

Rather silly statement.

Did you know GT5P sold 3.99m copies. Now considering this was only 10% of what GT5 will probably consist of plus the PS3 price cut, im pretty sure GT5 will sell more than 2.5m copies. I would actually put the figure between 10-15million by 2013.

Saying Turn 10 fear GT5 isn't being a fanboy just looking at it from a business POV. Im sure MS are also dreading the release of GT5 considering the franchise has sold 52 million copies.

The past couple of days have been very poor for MS. As you can now buy a 120GB PS3 slim for the same price as the Elite, plus a wonderful catalogue of games coming up i.e Unchartered 2, MAG, GT5, GOW III its going to be hard for MS to persuade 360 owners to not buy a PS3. The only saving grace won't be FM3 but the recession that may prevent this in the short term!

I've never been a fanboy and considering the hrs i've logged into FM2 plus my 50,000 GS suggests I do like the 360. However im a realist and the Xbox 360 is becoming stagnant whereas the PS3 is really taking off and will be the console of choice. My predictions is FM3 will sell 5-6million copies, GT5 10-15million and between 2010-2012 the PS3 will become the dominant console. If MS don't react ASAP then they are in trouble!!

 

[phil-t]

Not at all. I'm restating the initial point which was that rather than addressing the problem of people breaking their rules, the FM.net staff prefer to ban anyone who talks about GT5 which isn't against their rules.The thread was in the Misc forum when Che intervened.
Flaming and abuse is against their rules, talking about GT is not.
No-one who broke their rules was threatened with a ban. Someone who didn't break their rules was.
I insinuated nothing. I did state that it was horrible moderation.
I'm also waiting to find out what "obvious prejudice" I have.

You really are just arguing for the sake of arguing..

but to humour you, and not to allow the subversionary tactics, heres the original comment we are really discussing (yet again)

I find that phenomenal.

It's an off-topic forum. Someone posts about GT5 - two threads above a 20 page "Fail" images thread - and is lambasted for posting about GT5 on an FM3 site and the thread is then locked and the member (and anyone else who posts about GT5) threatened with a ban. By an employee of Turn10.

And elsewhere someone says that site is a "more mature forum" than GTPlanet.


Staggering. Simply staggering.

Again,

Someone posts about GT5 - two threads above a 20 page "Fail" images thread

Again, incorrect, the OP was in the FM3 sub-forum no-where near a 20 page "Fail Images Thread"..
It may be true that it was moved later to a more appropriate forum and (poorly) retro-spectively moderated, but that's not the statement you made..

and is lambasted for posting about GT5 on an FM3 site

He was lambasted for it being a repeat post of posting a GT5 thread in the main FM3 forum, which is not tolerated because it always descends into a flame war.

No-one who broke their rules was threatened with a ban. Someone who didn't break their rules was.

This is their moderation style, it's easier to lock/deter the more sensitive threads (that cause flame-wars) then carefully appraise tens of posts where it all hinges on the definition of Trolling (no personal attacks where made).

I insinuated nothing. I did state that it was horrible moderation.
I'm also waiting to find out what "obvious prejudice" I have.

Simple really..

The fact you mis-represented the actual situation, insinuating that the thread was locked and a ban threatened because someone was just posting about GT5 in an off-topic forum, coupled with the admission that you feel their site is less mature with poor moderation seems to be quite obvious to me..

 

[Blitz187]

Fanboy this, Fanboy boy that... blah blah blah... If people want to see an example of fanboy characteristics, scroll back a few pages and check the posts of Satans Reverence... even though he seemed more like a troll then a fanboy... the statements he made were that of a fanboy.... Not open to suggestions and blindly talking down all arguments against FM with no regard for good, well thought out arguments... The regular posters of GTplanet are not like that IMO... Sometimes you have the odd fanboy that pops in here or there but in my experience the posters here at GT planet are quite mature for internet standards.... Even the younger members come across as mature... The fact is fanboys are everywhere weather it be a specific car, game or whatever the case maybe... the thing that matters is how you go about handling people like that and not letting yourself sink to those low levels.... because if they manage to to that then, you have lost yourself already and they go on laughing... Just another one of my 2 cents

He was lambasted for it being a repeat post of posting a GT5 thread in the main FM3 forum, which is not tolerated because it always descends into a flame war.

This statement right here shows that their forum is not handled in a mature manner where people can excercise their right to speak freely and voice opinions... Why is this thread still open here? This is a Forza 3 thread in the GT5 forum. If you scroll back there were numerous times where it got a bit out of hand... but this was all fixed due to good moderation... maybe if they adopted the same principles at FM.net they might be able to keep threads like that in existance instead of shutting them down ASAP....

 

[Famine]

He was lambasted for it being a repeat post of posting a GT5 thread in the main FM3 forum, which is not tolerated because it always descends into a flame war.

I ask again, who is at fault there? Someone who posts about GT5 or the people who respond to it by flaming?

This is their moderation style, it's easier to lock/deter the more sensitive threads (that cause flame-wars) then carefully appraise tens of posts where it all hinges on the definition of Trolling (no personal attacks where made).

Oh yes, it's much easier. And you end up with a forum full of people who are happy to flame with impugnity.

You also end up with a situation where your stated rules are ignored.

Simple really..

The fact you mis-represented the actual situation, insinuating that the thread was locked and a ban threatened because someone was just posting about GT5 in an off-topic forum, coupled with the admission that you feel their site is less mature with poor moderation seems to be quite obvious to me..

I didn't mis-represent anything. Che threatened to ban anyone who made a thread about GT5. This actually happened. I also stated that the site is badly moderated so long as people who actually break their rules aren't punished because it's easier to ban people who don't. I don't recall mentioning maturity.

Where's the obvious prejudice, aside from the one where I hate bad and inconsistent moderation?

 

[warpspeed2slow]

You laugh at the Forza forums, they laugh at the GT forums. Sure you are as different as night and day.

 

[Famine]

You laugh at the Forza forums, they laugh at the GT forums. Sure you are as different as night and day.

They ban people just for talking about GT. We've never banned someone just for talking about FM. In fact we have an entire forum just for it and, oooh, this thread.

Your call.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

You laugh at the Forza forums, they laugh at the GT forums. Sure you are as different as night and day.

But why? Many of us (I for one) own and like both GT and FM. I fail to see why anyone has to hate the other for any reason whatsoever.
The bottom line is that we who enjoy a drivinggame are usually very fond of cars, and these games allow us to some extent enjoy cars we normally wouldn´t even see IRL.
Sure, gamephysics differ, the number of cars differ, framerates and blah blah blah, I still fail to see what makes one better than the other.
If we look at T10 and PD, they simply have different approaches to what a driving game is, and in my book, that´s a good thing! More diversity can in this case never be a bad thing!

 

[phil-t]

I ask again, who is at fault there? Someone who posts about GT5 or the people who respond to it by flaming? Oh yes, it's much easier. And you end up with a forum full of people who are happy to flame with impugnity. You also end up with a situation where your stated rules are ignored.

I didn't mis-represent anything. Che threatened to ban anyone who made a thread about GT5. This actually happened. I also stated that the site is badly moderated so long as people who actually break their rules aren't punished because it's easier to ban people who don't. I don't recall mentioning maturity.

Where's the obvious prejudice, aside from the one where I hate bad and inconsistent moderation?

You are still diverting attention away from the original point..

You claimed the GT5 thread was locked/banned simply because it was talking about GT5 in an off-topic forum.. This is not actually the case, and I believe that facts exist that prove this to be incorrect or highly unlikely. That is all.

I don't recall mentioning maturity.

My interpretation of that came from..

And elsewhere someone says that site is a "more mature forum" than GTPlanet. Staggering. Simply staggering.

You know if you stop asking questions in your replies to me, I'm happy to not respond, and we'll leave it at that!

 

[the Interceptor]

You are still diverting attention away from the original point..

You claimed the GT5 thread was locked/banned simply because it was talking about GT5 in an off-topic forum.. This is not actually the case, and I believe that facts exist that prove this to be incorrect or highly unlikely. That is all.

The point is that as a mod, you either lock a thread which has been opened in a wrong subforum, or you move it there. Moving it to the correct forum and then locking it for having been opened in the wrong section makes no sense.

 

[blademask]

Oh my sweet feathery christ. This thread is like my bastard step child that needs to be put down.

Although, now with the details of GT out and about. I have to say that I am completely 100% thrilled with the progress:

1. Headtracking, YES.
2. Online issues have clearly been mentioned. Private races etc.
3. Youtube Replay uploads.
4. 1000 Cars, some damage, some no damage
- My only issue with that is how can you race damagable vehicles vs non damagable? TGS should clear that up.
5. Visuals
-Sweet lord of gold is GT5 beautiful. We all know what offscreen add's but some stuff offscreen just cant add. The colors/detail/reflections is all phenomenal.

I think initially when I wrote the op. I was frustrated due to the lack of news. Now... 00 pages later. We have the news we wanted. While some of us may have fallen victim of getting involved in the pissing contest which is FM3 Vs GT, myself included. I think we are also falling victim of Turn10/Microsoft's dishonorable actions. Spitting venom out at PD as well as creating this atmostphere of fake damage being of the utmost importance to a driving game. Damage isn't important in GT. Because GT isn't about losing control of your vehicle. Its about perfecting driving. I'd equate GT more to track days, no one is rubbing/trying to put the pedal to the medal there in an unsafe way, just have a good race and call it a day. I dont think that any of us here that have loved GT since 1 gave 2 riff's about damage, but more so penalties for cheap driving. Especially with the onset of online driving. So now the people that want damage, can love knocking off doors

Everyone who played prologue knows exactly what im talking about, but in all honesty. Its not much different in most online games. You have immature players that rub/bump and play dirty just to get 5th. Thats why I love racing GT planet folks. Its always a clean race.. however I've seen some of you playing a bit dirty.. but thats in the beginner races(and i don't think those really count.. just warmup, because everyone is killing eachother anyway) .

I'm hoping that there are strict rules and reporting. All we needed was this tiny breath of fresh air. And my god is it sweet. Some of you are pretending you aren't going to buy GT now because of whatever reason. Enjoy doing it, maybe that way FM3 might possibly out sell a GT game in its lifetime.