From GT5 to FM3

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Just noticed this:

So you are saying that it is the track physics that are wrong rather than the car physics?


There's no such thing as "track physics". :lol:


Forza's physics engine doesn't "ignore" the track's bumps either. The tracks don't have bumps modeled. Whether or not that was a choice for making online races work better or just something they didn't do, I don't know. Just be sure that when GT5 has the bumps and narrow track so that when you race at Nurb online with the general public you come bitch and moan about how all the idiots online can't race cleanly or they hold you up. ;)
 
Considering T10 had images of Forza running in the rain on their wallboard about a year ago, it's almost certain they will have had the time to add it into FM4.

I gotta wonder if they are using the weather from PGR4, which was pretty good.
 
If only they could have used the graphics engine from PGR4 full stop! Stunning looking game, ahead of its time.
 
Is there body roll in Forza3?
I don't mean it as a diss, but I've been playing a lot of Forza3 lately and it feels like it's missing body roll even in the replays. I can see the shocks go up and down, but I don't think I've seen the body sway side to side. Anyone else make this observation?
 
It does once you soften the springs, but it's not ordinarily well pronounced.
 
Once again, how is GT's career mode so thrilling? Pretty much ALL racing games go about their "career" mode as a list of available races, different restrictions on them, pick a car that fits those restrictions and go race. Win, get a reward.
Well in GT4 you had prize cars, some could only be had by running the race and some were worth a good bit of in game cash. Both good reasons to run some of the races. Then there was the A-Spec points that gave an incentive to run every race with a weaker car to try and maximize your A-Spec points.

In Forza 2 there was a career leaderboard and every race was ranked giving another way to compete with friends and/or compete with the best. There were also cars that were locked until you won a specific event so it was in your best interest to run those races. Of course Forza 2 had the auction house so you could buy those cars without ever running a race in career mode.

Forza 3 has no locked cars, no prize cars for any career races, no leaderboards for them and the prizes are small compared to the cost of cars in game. You can easily go into multiplayer level up your driver faster earn more money in shorter time and do everything except get the few achivement points they give you for complettion. There are a lot more races in Forza 3 career than Forza 2 but Forza 2 career mode was much better overall. I ran every career race at least 2 times in Forza 2 some of them several times. Forza 3 I find myself bored even on the short races, no challenge, lap times don't even count due to the stupid penalty system.

I actually could care less about winning a Toyota Vitz myself, or half the other lame prize cars in GT. And instead of doing it race-by-race, Forza rewards cars based on you moving up through the driver levels. Big deal.
Yeah you can create a private multiplayer room set the class to any on benchmark A then jump in an R1 and gain numerous levels, get numerous cars and a good bit of cash in no time. I would wager 10x faster than early races in season mode. And of course you don't need an R1 even you can go on Layout E with a stock Fiesta and destroy the computer on the hardest settings with no effort at all.


Is there body roll in Forza3?
Not much. I can not recall ever getting in an old muscle car and seeing it roll much in the corners. No where near like it did on GT4.
 
Just noticed this:

There's no such thing as "track physics". :lol:

Ummm... yes there is? I will show you a bunch of Forza3 surface types if you want. These days just a single surface type will contain more data than a complete physics model used to run a whole car about 10-15 years ago.
 
There's no "physics" involved in that. A track is pure data. Physics are what describe how everything in the game reacts to each other. In a racing game, that is it governing how a vehicle (another data object that has its own model and all of its specifications (which would be attributes, from a programming standpoint)) reacts with its track environment.
 
Is there body roll in Forza3?
I don't mean it as a diss, but I've been playing a lot of Forza3 lately and it feels like it's missing body roll even in the replays. I can see the shocks go up and down, but I don't think I've seen the body sway side to side. Anyone else make this observation?

Nope. While the certain animations (movement) have improved over FM2, the suspension behaviour which ultimately affects not only how the car react to weight shift but also its mass (the car's weight) is still for most part, missing.

 
There's no "physics" involved in that. A track is pure data. Physics are what describe how everything in the game reacts to each other. In a racing game, that is it governing how a vehicle (another data object that has its own model and all of its specifications (which would be attributes, from a programming standpoint)) reacts with its track environment.

It's all coefficients, scales and frequencies (as with most any modern surface model) describing how it should interact with anything else in contact with it. It's not really something you can put in a box called "data" and remove entirely from the physics engine itself. They're not going to put in something nuts, math wise, to make it interact with the tyre model - which, as with the surface model, is basically a collection of scales, coefficients, etc. But I doubt I will read something along the lines of "tyre physics? that's crazy talk!" :)
 
Nope. While the certain animations (movement) have improved over FM2, the suspension behaviour which ultimately affects not only how the car react to weight shift but also its mass (the car's weight) is still for most part, missing.
While there is little to no noticable roll in the corners the suspension does have a major effect in game. I normally spend a great deal of time tuning these for best performance. A slight change to the spring rate, dampers or sway bars can have a very noticable impact on the way the car handles as the weight transfers.

I think the lack of roll is more due to stiff suspensions on most of the cars from the start whereas in real life a lot of these cars would have a much softer ride.

I remember in GT4 some of the stock cars were so soft it almost felt as though they were floating around Nurburgring.Most notably a couple of the Mercedes and Jaguar. Of course when you added race suspension they tightened up a lot and the road felt very bumpy.
 
I remember in GT4 some of the stock cars were so soft it almost felt as though they were floating around Nurburgring.Most notably a couple of the Mercedes and Jaguar. Of course when you added race suspension they tightened up a lot and the road felt very bumpy.

I miss that in Forza 3. Some of the cars that I know to have fairly compliant suspensions that exhibit roll/squat/dive from real life experience seem to have it vastly toned down in Forza, visually. I think that's a real shame. It adds a lot to the immersion and gives me another clue to how the car's behaving.
 
The only one I have really noticed it much on is the 73 Porsche RS. If you leave the stock suspension and drivetrain, place a lot of power in it then it does some serious squats when you nail the throttle TC on of course. It almost feels like it will do a wheelie.
 
I bought Forza when i realised i could be waiting another year or so for GT5.
Its a decent game but they really have ripped off a load of stuff from GT5 Prologue, like the car view in the manufacturers showroom and the camera floating around the car in a nice location thing, except in Forza there is only one location and you get pretty sick of it pretty quick lol.
I got to level 50 and from then on you don't gain any more experience, yet i was still only 33% through the game ? The game becomes very repetative, same view, same racing etc eventually i stopped playing because i was bored with the whole experience.
The graphics at first inspection look very nice but a closer look will show you a lack of polys, some cars smooth surfaces looking uneven and bubbly, in fact, apart from the HD thing, this game does not look that much better than GT4, just goes to show what an amazing game that was. Interesting that i clocked GT4 100%, never got bored of that.
Forza 3 is a good game, the best proberbly on xbox 360 but no way does it compete with GT5 in any department other than painting graffiti on your car.
 
Its a decent game but they really have ripped off a load of stuff from GT5 Prologue

Using ideas from other racers is extremely common. GT5 ripped off damage, GT5 ripped off roll over, GT5 ripped off weather, GT5 ripped off skid marks.

I got to level 50 and from then on you don't gain any more experience, yet i was still only 33% through the game ? The game becomes very repetative, same view, same racing etc eventually i stopped playing because i was bored with the whole experience.

The career does indeed get stale after so much time, but the experience was the same in GT4 and GT5p as well. Just got boring and eventually everything seemed the same, and you just had to go online.

The graphics at first inspection look very nice but a closer look will show you a lack of polys, some cars smooth surfaces looking uneven and bubbly, in fact, apart from the HD thing, this game does not look that much better than GT4, just goes to show what an amazing game that was.

Actually, it looks substantially better. But they did indeed reduce the car rez and poly count when actually in game (same that GT5 and GT5p does as well).

Interesting that i clocked GT4 100%, never got bored of that.
Forza 3 is a good game, the best proberbly on xbox 360 but no way does it compete with GT5 in any department other than painting graffiti on your car.

I actually got bored of GT4 much sooner than Forza. Thankfully career and online in Forza is really done well.
 
Hi guys... I'm new to this part because since 2008 I used to watch only gt5 forum.. And I bought my ps3 only for it....but I'm very worried at this point ...I believed gt5 would be the best racing game ever, from what I had heard... but now, I've discovered that they added the new manufactures without some of the best cars (Aston DBR9, Maserati MC12, Bentley Continental, Ferrari F50, Lambo Reventon, No Koenigsegg, No Porsche) and for a supercars lover like me it's a fail, because honestly I don't care less of havn more than 1000 if there about 50 skyline...then, 80% of the cars are standard, so you can't do anything, not even Cockpit view or changing wheels ... They paid attention in some things that a great part of peolpe don't matter, for example go-karting... And to make matters worse, they aren't going to put some of the tracks that made the fantastic experience of gt4, like el captain, seattle, opera paris, costa di amalfi and the list goes on... I thought that with a 6 years job, they would have put all the tracks from previous gt, and something new (Spa, Hockeneim), and weather change and day-night transition wouldn't be a feature of only a few ...Then they talk about Course Maker : we all want circuits with a very high level of particulars, and if PD takes an year to reproduce a track, we can't do better...
So becomes the idea of changing console and game...
The only thing that doesn't let me to be sure is the graphic, which i think in gt5 is better...
What can you suggest to me? Changing console is in your opinion the right choice?
Sorry if my english is not good...


Simple answer:
FORZA 3 is not perfect ! but you learn to like it ..the way it is !
GT5 is not perfect ! so learn to like it the way it is !

If you want a perfect racing game...then you go and create your own game.
other then that enjoy them the way they are !!
 
Well in GT4 you had prize cars, some could only be had by running the race and some were worth a good bit of in game cash. Both good reasons to run some of the races. Then there was the A-Spec points that gave an incentive to run every race with a weaker car to try and maximize your A-Spec points.
Except A-Spec points are nothing but bragging rights.

And the cost you could re-sell them for is why T10 locked the cars to 100, so nobody could sit there & just horde one race all day like you can in GT, and make nearly every other race not worth running besides the completion aspect.

Forza 3 has no locked cars, no prize cars for any career races, no leaderboards for them and the prizes are small compared to the cost of cars in game.
No locked cars (although there are 3 cars locked technically, awarded through T10), but with the way cars were prized, they were near impossible to get. And you got prize cars for each level you unlocked to help compete in the bigger races.

As for leaderboards, I don't see the point for just prize cars. And it's not like GT had this kind of option either, until recently (if even #5 has it).
 
Except A-Spec points are nothing but bragging rights.
That's true but it was something to aim for and it was a challenge. It also got you to drive a lot of cars that you may not have otherwise tried at all. In short it was fun and that is what most people look for in a game.

And the cost you could re-sell them for is why T10 locked the cars to 100, so nobody could sit there & just horde one race all day like you can in GT, and make nearly every other race not worth running besides the completion aspect.
Turn 10 only let you win each car one time so there was no need to lock the price at 100. They did this to encourage the auction house feature and that is all. It is lame and totally unrealistic. Like you could only get 100 dollars for a shiny new FXX. Also you can set there and run one race over and over and get tons of credits in Forza 3. Multiplayer benchmark A, R1 7 AI drivers 10 minutes will net you several thousand credits.


No locked cars (although there are 3 cars locked technically, awarded through T10), but with the way cars were prized, they were near impossible to get. And you got prize cars for each level you unlocked to help compete in the bigger races.
Yes every level, you could run that race I mentioned above in 10 minute intervals and get 10 or so even if you drove a stock Fiesta. Again my point was/is that there is abosultely no reason to run any career race in Forza 3 other than achivement points. Forza 2 was 100x better in career mode.

As for leaderboards, I don't see the point for just prize cars. And it's not like GT had this kind of option either, until recently (if even #5 has it).
The leaderboards were for career races in Forza 2. For example there may have been a 5 lap race on Maple Valley in a B class American made car. The leaderboard here would reflect the top times for the entire race and you could compare your times to those of your friends and the best of Forza. This alone encouraged many people to run the races several times in an effort to place high on the board or just to beat thier friends time. Then there was an overall leaderboard which listed total times for all career races which many people also enjoyed competing on.

These leaderboards were the best thing about Forza 2 career mode but in Forza 3 they removed them along with the prize cars and added a lot more boring races with no objective.

GT4 career mode had some very challenging races especially if you went for A-Spec rating Forza 3 does not. The only races that are even remotely challenging are the factory spec races unless you purposely choose an inferior car which of course gets you no bonus, no record, no bragging rights even, because unless someone sees you then you can't even prove that you drove the race.

So yes as career mode goes in racing games Forza 3 is the most boring I have ever saw with the smallest reward for completion.
 
Not everyone shares the same opinion though.
True. Pretty much everyone I know who played Forza 2 is not happy about the career leaderboards being removed from the game. I know games need to change over time but I really can't get my head around what would make T10 remove some of the better features that were in Forza 2 when moving to Forza 3.
 
Funny thing happened on my way to work this morning. I pushed my vehicle hard through a series of corners and not once did it snap around on me, slide wildly off the road as if on ice or have the back end come around every time I lifted off the throttle. The tires were squealing and everything and yet somehow, miraculously, I made it unscathed. Thank goodness cars in real life seem to have more grip than people think they should.
Exactly how fast were you going? Race track corners are often sharper than most corners on the road and hopefully are banked as well. With increase speed tires can lose their grips a lot more easy. In sims you don't get the sense of speed since you don't feel the G-forces so it a lot easier to go too fast around corners so game cheats a little by given the player more grip than IRL.
 
The way I like to drive, by getting the car 'up on its toes' for corner entry seems to work in a similar way in Forza 3 for me, so that's why I've always thought it is a realistic sim. I had an old E36 that just wouldn't understeer and was always on a neutral-to-oversteer balance and I had some epic drives; to me, Forza feels like how I developed my driving style to suit that car and I drive my now FWD car in a similar way. It may not be the quickest, but as a simulation is a set of computer numbers, rather than a changing variable, you have to appreciate not every driver enjoys being ultra precise and like to be a little loser and more expressive behind the wheel. For me, FM3 is pretty much perfect.
 
Forza 3 braking physics is similar to F1 2010 in that if you start to oversteer just apply the brakes will straighten your car up. Unlike F1 2010 you can lock up the brakes going straight in FM3. Also in Race Pro (Race 07) driving FWD race cars you can tell you sacrifices grip steering the car when you step on the gas in the corners. (power understeering?) This is absent in FM 3.
 
I've no issues in saying FM3 has very complex physics going on underneath, having to try and get top laptimes requires exploiting the physics, so you get to really understand what does/doesn't affect the car when the aim is conserving momentum, in that respect it has shown me that there are some really reasonably deep elements to it.

Where I think FM3 doesn't quite hit the mark is two things
1. 'Feel', there are some cars/aspects of the physics that needed better tweaking in terms of the amplitude of effect to the given input.2
2. Some compromises in making it more playable at times, I'm not against everything they do to slightly soften a few aspects, but some they could have allowed an option for a slightly purer experience.

I am sure GT5 is not only going to offer the complexity of physics of FM or higher (and certainly be a huge step up from Prologue), it will retain the 'real' feel of the cars on the surface (something I felt GT5p does well enough for some cars)..

Until I play it, I can't say for sure, but I have a feeling GT5 is going to offer the best combination of technical 'physics' to 'feel' of any game yet (on a console).
I'm sure it won't be perfect, but quite frankly, the 'feel' is 60% of it, the rest of it is normally quite hard for people to quantify and assess, but Internet critics will prevail if anything is untoward, I'm sure.
 
The cars do understeer in FM3, though. Sure, it's rarely terminal, but then we're to assume someone racing in a way these games portrays is pretty good at what they do, so some semblance of competence must be built into a sim, surely?
 
Yes most of the cars in Forza understeer by default even the RWD cars tend to understeer and the AWD have heavy understeer. This is even more pronouced if TC is used. It can be tuned out of most of them without much difficulty though.
 
The FWD understeer I'm referring to wasn't in GT5P either as the understeer seems to base on the car's speed. Hopefully Gt5 has made some improvements in this area.
 
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