From GT5 to FM3

[Daddybird]

Ah yes, and I forgot the best example of all. The Focus RS8:



So that'll be a rear drive converted Focus RS with a hefty V8 shoved in the front. Made by Ford themselves. With reference to other firms that have also offered such a swap. To top it all off, the conversion was available as a kit for around $20,000 to fit to any Focus, even the estate/wagon.

Well that's about as much as it would cost in Forza anyway! Talk about realism... Things brings me on an idea.👍

 

[Muzaffar]

The drivetrain and engine swap in Forza has always been awesome. Have built many monsters such as a RB26DETT AWD 240Z, 20BTT RX7 FD (which can do 420kph on the Mulsanne straight!) K20 Turbo Honda Fit, etc. You get the point lol. But somehow even with all the mods the Forza physics really does let me down a bit... =(

 

[VXR]

I replied to someone who was preaching how they like to respect the manufacturer's designs and offering engine swaps would make them an abomination, by pointing out that if the manufacturers themselves were against engine swaps, there'd be no Golf GTI.

 

[phil-t]

The drivetrain and engine swap in Forza has always been awesome. Have built many monsters such as a RB26DETT AWD 240Z, 20BTT RX7 FD (which can do 420kph on the Mulsanne straight!) K20 Turbo Honda Fit, etc. You get the point lol. But somehow even with all the mods the Forza physics really does let me down a bit... =(

In FM3 they tried to make it slightly more realistic, I loved in FM2 making a MK II Golf GTi into some almost all dominating monster..

They limited the HP/tyre widths etc and I think with the new physics making a small over powered short chassis'd car not as exploitable, it kind of took the edge off that aspect!

I must be one of the only ones that enjoyed the physics, but accept as far as grip levels of initial feel, the cars aren't 'enjoyable' on the surface, you have to be pushing them for leaderboard times or winning competitions to really get down to exploiting the nuances of it, and on that level, it's got enough going on to make it a real challenge.

Lets hope they learn from other games and take on board the fact that people need cars to have slightly less grip and have a more loose feel to them, then I think they will cater for just about most people..

 

[Daddybird]

I replied to someone who was preaching how they like to respect the manufacturer's designs and offering engine swaps would make them an abomination, by pointing out that if the manufacturers themselves were against engine swaps, there'd be no Golf GTI.

Fanboys gone mad.... There has to be genuine reason for 80 percent of the cars to look crap too right? RIGHT? yeah...

 

[Muzaffar]

In FM3 they tried to make it slightly more realistic, I loved in FM2 making a MK II Golf GTi into some almost all dominating monster..

They limited the HP/tyre widths etc and I think with the new physics making a small over powered short chassis'd car not as exploitable, it kind of took the edge off that aspect!

I must be one of the only ones that enjoyed the physics, but accept as far as grip levels of initial feel, the cars aren't 'enjoyable' on the surface, you have to be pushing them for leaderboard times or winning competitions to really get down to exploiting the nuances of it, and on that level, it's got enough going on to make it a real challenge.

Lets hope they learn from other games and take on board the fact that people need cars to have slightly less grip and have a more loose feel to them, then I think they will cater for just about most people..

Well... its realistic alright, but not as realistic as I would like it to be.
Also the grip level is just either too much or too little, a bit of a knife edge I might add. But its a nuisance trying to control the throttle and brake in the game, throttle too much and the car would oversteer and spin (regardless of what car it is, even LMP1 cars with slicks!) and if you brake too hard the tires would lock up. Thankfully there is an unlimited "flashbacks" so I don't have to restart over and over again.

 

[Daddybird]

Well... its realistic alright, but not as realistic as I would like it to be.
Also the grip level is just either too much or too little, a bit of a knife edge I might add. But its a nuisance trying to control the throttle and brake in the game, throttle too much and the car would oversteer and spin (regardless of what car it is, even LMP1 cars with slicks!) and if you brake too hard the tires would lock up. Thankfully there is an unlimited "flashbacks" so I don't have to restart over and over again.

At least we've all driven LMP cars in real life.

 

[430_Riviera]

I hope it goes even further in FM4, the ability to do specialist modifications such as known twin engine mods would be incredible, such as the twin engine Audi TT or the twin engine minis I've seen. Is a shame we won't see bike motors as well. A Hyabusa engined Suzuki Cappuchino would be the mutts nuts.

One thing that does bother me about FM3 is the cars feel great till they lose grip and go over the limit, there is little progression and once grip is lost it is like being on ice rather than controllable. Setup appears to have little effect on this. Also it is impossible to get a high powered car off the line at all, even with the widest, stickiest slicks. I understand that it's difficult in real life but come on.

 

[Muzaffar]

at least we've all driven lmp cars in real life.

lol...

 

[Muzaffar]

I hope it goes even further in FM4, the ability to do specialist modifications such as known twin engine mods would be incredible, such as the twin engine Audi TT or the twin engine minis I've seen. Is a shame we won't see bike motors as well. A Hyabusa engined Suzuki Cappuchino would be the mutts nuts.

One thing that does bother me about FM3 is the cars feel great till they lose grip and go over the limit, there is little progression and once grip is lost it is like being on ice rather than controllable. Setup appears to have little effect on this. Also it is impossible to get a high powered car off the line at all, even with the widest, stickiest slicks. I understand that it's difficult in real life but come on.

Twin engines is a bit much isn't it? I prefer if we could swap engines from other manufacturers and such. Would be awesome if I could put a rotary in almost any car...

As for the physics, I agree. Definitely hard to pull of the line cleanly, unless you have traction control on. 👎

Edit: Oops, sorry for the double posting.

 

[430_Riviera]

Well... its realistic alright, but not as realistic as I would like it to be.
Also the grip level is just either too much or too little, a bit of a knife edge I might add. But its a nuisance trying to control the throttle and brake in the game, throttle too much and the car would oversteer and spin (regardless of what car it is, even LMP1 cars with slicks!) and if you brake too hard the tires would lock up. Thankfully there is an unlimited "flashbacks" so I don't have to restart over and over again.

So you are saying that a 650hp, 900kg LMP1 car wouldn't suddenly swap ends on you when you overpowered the enourmous mechanical grip of it's slicks by being an unmitigated simpleton with the throttle? And that you have never seen an F1/Indy car/LMP1/LMP2/GT1 car lock up when the driver gets it wrong? People need to realise that winged competition cars don't work at slow speed. The majority of the grip in the most high end racing cars is produced through downforce having an effect on tire friction, something that Forza models very well. The lack of this in the road cars is what makes them fun, and very difficult if tuned, to drive. Give me a mildly modified Clio V6 and Road Atlanta and I'll be happy forever in FM3. My one gripe with FM3 is that the grip level is easily overcome, which isn't necessarily incorrect, but it makes certain elements of the game, such as drag racing very difficult in higher powered RWD cars. In the game, AWD will rule due to the physics engine unfairly biasing in their direction, whereas we know in the real world, in both drag and on road racing in favourable conditions, RWD is ultimately faster.

What you have to remember, from the safety of your arm chair at home, is that there are a very select few that are suitable to drive these cars at this speed in the real world, and even then they frequently get it wrong. The likelyhood is that if actually released on to a track in one of these vehicles and proceed to drive it in a manner similar to how most of us would drive it in Forza/GT etc. then we would be seriously injured very quickly. Having a go at Forza because it makes them difficult to drive is a tad shortsighted, no?

 

[VXR]

One great new feature would be if they let us have some engine blocks and cylinder heads, exhausts, manifolds etc and let us create and tune our own engines that could fit into any car within reason. It would be a great new addition to the storefront and all those extra different sounds etc would make it worthwhile.

 

[Daddybird]

One great new feature would be if they let us have some engine blocks and cylinder heads, exhausts, manifolds etc and let us create and tune our own engines that could fit into any car within reason. It would be a great new addition to the storefront and all those extra different sounds etc would make it worthwhile.

Like SR!!!

 

[Muzaffar]

So you are saying that a 650hp, 900kg LMP1 car wouldn't suddenly swap ends on you when you overpowered the enourmous mechanical grip of it's slicks by being an unmitigated simpleton with the throttle? And that you have never seen an F1/Indy car/LMP1/LMP2/GT1 car lock up when the driver gets it wrong? People need to realise that winged competition cars don't work at slow speed. The majority of the grip in the most high end racing cars is produced through downforce having an effect on tire friction, something that Forza models very well. The lack of this in the road cars is what makes them fun, and very difficult if tuned, to drive. Give me a mildly modified Clio V6 and Road Atlanta and I'll be happy forever in FM3. My one gripe with FM3 is that the grip level is easily overcome, which isn't necessarily incorrect, but it makes certain elements of the game, such as drag racing very difficult in higher powered RWD cars. In the game, AWD will rule due to the physics engine unfairly biasing in their direction, whereas we know in the real world, in both drag and on road racing in favourable conditions, RWD is ultimately faster.

What you have to remember, from the safety of your arm chair at home, is that there are a very select few that are suitable to drive these cars at this speed in the real world, and even then they frequently get it wrong. The likelyhood is that if actually released on to a track in one of these vehicles and proceed to drive it in a manner similar to how most of us would drive it in Forza/GT etc. then we would be seriously injured very quickly. Having a go at Forza because it makes them difficult to drive is a tad shortsighted, no?

Well I know what your trying to say and all, but I'm playing with a controller so throttle/steering input is a bit difficult to say the least. If Forza could support the Logitech G25 I would have a totally different opinion on the physics compared to as of now. As it is, I find it hard to play Forza with a controller compared to say, GT, NFS or other similar racing games on the console. Maybe not hard, but its just so difficult to push that 110% in the game.

Also, I do have respect for the drivers driving the real thing and yes they do make mistakes, even the best of them...

 

[430_Riviera]

Aye, it is most certainly true that the steering wheel issues have affected FM, i'm not so blind to the world to not see that. It would be so much easier to sense breakaway and balance the car with a proper darn steering wheel.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

After playing both games, I can confirm that Forza 3 has nothing to worry about. GT5 is a step backwards in so many ways. The "standard" cars destroyed the game. GT5 is only a 20% completed game and it truly shows. The only way GT5 could redeem itself is to patch the game making EVERY car in the game "premium". Which we all know will not happen.

 

[Lynx1677]

I love Forza 3. I simply love it. Where else can you take a 1965 Nissan 510 and make it into a 600bhp fire spitting monster and give it a custom paint/decal job. Only in Forza. The physics and cars don't look as good as GT5's best but GT5's best is a very short list and all the niggles have put me off even playing it. I always end up going back to Forza 3 to tune another sedate car into something mad. The FUN element in GT5 has gone, it feels so dated now. GT needs to evolve or at least achieve what it's set out to do.

 

[FyreandIce]

Aye, it is most certainly true that the steering wheel issues have affected FM, i'm not so blind to the world to not see that. It would be so much easier to sense breakaway and balance the car with a proper darn steering wheel.

That's not so much an issue with the available wheels but rather an issue with the steering assist. It is great when you are using a controller, it makes the game fun and enjoyable. But it should not be applied when using a wheel (which the game automatically detects). It really ruins the point of having a wheel if it's just a big round thumbstick.

 

[VXR]

I'm sure enough people have whined about it for T10 to get it removed for FM4. I get a sense MGS are complete tools and make T10 work like dogs as soon as the current game has launched to get the new game underway.

 

[phil-t]

That's not so much an issue with the available wheels but rather an issue with the steering assist. It is great when you are using a controller, it makes the game fun and enjoyable. But it should not be applied when using a wheel (which the game automatically detects). It really ruins the point of having a wheel if it's just a big round thumbstick.

The steering assist is so overhyped IMO. As people will testify, its very easy to get cars to swap ends and get in lairy slides. It's obviously a default phyics tweak to add a slight softener to sudden snap oversteer, and let's face it, its now not alone in providing a slightly softened sim experience.

I'm not saying its not there, but if there was no visible sign of it in the telemetry, people would not have noticed it, people seem to infer that its dumbing everything down, which is massively OTT, considering how easily out of shape cars can get. The slightly too high grip levels are the most needed improvement IMO.

I drive using a wheel, and it never even registers its occuring, the oversteer, power or snap seems really well modelled, just catchable if quick enough, but will go too far if not, rather like GT5.

This aside, Using a wheel gives very direct 1:1 correlation to the in game wheel. With a pad, steering inputs are quite noticeably damped, to give smoother control from a small stick.

 

[boxox]

I'm not saying its not there, but if there was no visible sign of it in the telemetry, people would not have noticed it, people seem to infer that its dumbing everything down, which is massively OTT, considering how easily out of shape cars can get. The slightly too high grip levels are the most needed improvement IMO.

Well, I'd disagree. At least in my opinion, it is amazingly noticable and is pretty much a "ruin everything" switch they stuck on the game. Take a look at the famous youtube video:



In your opinion, should this happen? Throttle all the way down, all the way off, steering all the way to one side, then whipping it across to the other ... car keeps pretty much totally stable and heading in the right direction? Is that something that should happen at all?

It just comes across like, "here's how confident we are in our physics engine: we will never, ever let you into any part of it that goes past the limit".

 

[Daddybird]

I don't notice it so much with the pad, and what I normally do to eliminate the standard understeer and oversteer is to soften the roll bars to get a more "loose" and organic feeling.

All in all I love FM3 as a long time GT fan, like said before here, GT feels so dated now it's unbelievable.

When FM4 comes, I'm thinking of getting a Fanatec wheel, worth it? Is it possible to get them in Australia? Haven't come across them yet.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

Well, I'd disagree. At least in my opinion, it is amazingly noticable and is pretty much a "ruin everything" switch they stuck on the game. Take a look at the famous youtube video:



In your opinion, should this happen? Throttle all the way down, all the way off, steering all the way to one side, then whipping it across to the other ... car keeps pretty much totally stable and heading in the right direction? Is that something that should happen at all?

It just comes across like, "here's how confident we are in our physics engine: we will never, ever let you into any part of it that goes past the limit".

I think it's a way to keep those with steering wheels from having an advantage over the majority of gamers who are using controllers. The same with the clutch option only meant you have to push two buttons at the same time to shift instead of one. So the Fanatec wheel with a clutch pedal didn't have any advantage over controllers. If Forza 3 was a PC sim then I have no doubt this "Active steering" could be turn off.

 

[boxox]

When FM4 comes, I'm thinking of getting a Fanatec wheel, worth it? Is it possible to get them in Australia? Haven't come across them yet.

Techbuy do them reasonably cheap (oops, actually looks like they're not that competitive anymore ) from what I remember and will deliver. Search online, they are around. You might have trouble finding the fancy pedals editions of things cheap though.

 

[Daddybird]

Techbuy do them reasonably cheap (oops, actually looks like they're not that competitive anymore ) from what I remember and will deliver. Search online, they are around. You might have trouble finding the fancy pedals editions of things cheap though.

Thanks I'll check it out:tup:. I saw on the Fanatec website they're coming with a new wheel pretty soon.

 

[boxox]

Yep. Shop around, maybe even investigate ordering from them directly and shipping it with the dollar the way it has been lately. When I got the G-25 it was for less than half the high street chain price at the time ($550) from Umart. You just need to find a place that treats it as ordinary computer hardware rather than some premium thing with a nice margin to sell to suckers

 

[Daddybird]

Yep. Shop around, maybe even investigate ordering from them directly and shipping it with the dollar the way it has been lately. When I got the G-25 it was for less than half the high street chain price at the time ($550) from uMart. You just need to find a place that treats it as ordinary computer hardware rather than some premium thing with a nice margin to sell to suckers

I have a DFP but it's not supported on XBX, which is a shame cause I love that wheel... but it's not worth getting a PS3 for to play GT5.

 

[Daddybird]

Lexus LFA GT5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VKFezKgBZA

Lexus LFA Forza3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPXadSc73xY

Lexus LFA Real life:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBTuAPYu0yM&NR=1

 

[barfNZ]

I think it's a way to keep those with steering wheels from having an advantage over the majority of gamers who are using controllers. The same with the clutch option only meant you have to push two buttons at the same time to shift instead of one. So the Fanatec wheel with a clutch pedal didn't have any advantage over controllers. If Forza 3 was a PC sim then I have no doubt this "Active steering" could be turn off.

so Forza has AIDS, and they can't be cured.

with a tip of the hat to Forza, Turismo is five years more advanced. to be fair, compare games with games and simulations with simulations. Forza is still in the game category, just like NFS, Mario Kart and Crash Team Racing.

the tracks in forza are less detailed, the road surfaces have noticable bumps from the verticies that aren't property interpolated out by the physics engine. it's 5 years behind turismo (literally.)

 

[boxox]

Wow, that's reasonable

Consider the following:



Try to imagine the odor of onanism given off by getting into "this is a sim, that is a game" at this point.