From GT5 to FM3

[phil-t]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all that raw input is not something they would ever use. However I think it's kind of getting to the point of "who do you believe, me or your lying eyes?" to dismiss the motion of the front wheels under those circumstances. It's obviously something that is not user-generated input, which affects both the game's own concept of where steering input is positioning the wheels, and the 3d wheels themselves. To say that this is not having an effect is basically to say that neither of those things have final say on driving, which I don't think leads us in a direction that is very complimentary of F3 either.

I don't think it's purely and only a speed sensitive steering (as is termed in the ISI engine games) issue either, but I am sure they do use something like that as part of their input filtering suite in addition to other things. A great many games use assisted steering, even a great many of the old 90s "real sims" - it's not a knock on a game at all to say it. But it is a problem if it's having a sub-physics and sub-input level effect on driving and can never be turned off.

OK, I've just gone and done a video, just to show once and for all that it's a storm in a teacup.

Disclaimer, of course 'something' is happening, but as you'll see it's not half as sinister as you think (i.e. it's not really assisting you in any way).

Excuse the crap quality, it just about suffices

All assists off, FFB turned off on wheel (PWTS) to ensure no physical shaking induced from any FFB effects.

1. 00:00 - 00:23 - Fixed steering input left, apply max throttle, induce huge power oversteer, and see reaction..
Notice I hold a constant lock left, then apply max throttle, the car loses traction very easily and the car oversteers and swaps ends, note that as the car is initially sliding and losing traction, with a constant steering input absolutely nothing occurs, the game does not try and correct anything for me at all.
One observation however is that as the car swaps ends, the steering 'jumps' to almost full lock, there is some special case in this scenario when the car pivots 180 degrees, it seems to increase steering sensitivity, but notice if anything it's actually making the car turn even further into the slide rather then trying to help you by steering out of it.

2. 00:24 - 00:50 - a repeat of the previous test
Again, no automatic counter steering or assist, and note in a car with low grip levels/high power how easy it is to overcook it.. And yes, note how it pivots 180 degrees, the steering lock jumps again to it's max (same quirk as above)

3. 00:50 - 01:05 - Pendulation using power oversteer, normal speed
This is using a car with low grip/high power and as you can see trying to really pendulate the car is very difficult indeed, there doesn't seem to be some wild arcade 'assist' jumping in and making it a walk in the park. Of course, this is one of the rare cars/tracks where grip levels are actually very close to GT5.

4. 01:05 -> This is a slowed down (using replay slo-mo feature) to show what is actually happening when 'the glitch' occurs in better detail.
I'm going to pendulate the car with power oversteer,

01:25 - 01:34 I start to steer left and apply a lot of throttle, notice by 01:34, I'm winding lock off and going to countersteer, and have removed power, the car is sliding (it's not so obvious in slo-mo, but bear with me!) Note that no assist has kicked in at the point of sliding, it's letting the car slide with no intervention

01:37 - the car is rotating anti-clockwise, I'm just crossing to right lock, note no assist has kicked in and tried to stop the rotation yet, despite the car sliding, and me already starting to counter-steer.

01:52 - I've reached full oppo lock, and the car is started to pendulate the other way, you'll note that I rewind it on the fly and keep replaying this section, it's not come out well on the video, but it's at this point there is a tiny oscillation at full lock , it's more visible at 02:12.
Again, it needs to be noted that nothng has assisted the car in anyway despite already oversteered, and started to pendulate in the opposite direction, all that has been seen is a tiny oscillation when full opposite lock has been reached, and anything removing the steering from full lock is not going to help matters!

02:17 02:20 - The Biggie!!, the car starts pendulating the other way, I apply throttle to give it more of a moment and start unwinding the lock (to get on the way to countersteering), note that it really oscillates now, the glitch in it's entirety, but notice that at 02:17, I'm at full lock, at 2:20 I'm at about half lock, note the oscillation goes between roughly half lock and full lock, the actual steering input from me is moving towards half lock in that time, so it's oscillating between adding more steering input (back to full lock) and less steering input (half lock), and note that at 2:20 it stops and I'm quickly winding lock off (remember this is slowed down massively). It's clearly an oscillation around the users steering input, it's not one sided, you'd have to say that it should balance out as having no net effect (it adds as much lock as it takes away), I don't see how this is massively assisting the user, it doesn't make sense, if it was heavily one sided and really averaged as a wild countersteering effect, It'd be easy to see.. it really isn't doing that though is it!

5. 02:24 - It oscillates again as I'm now going into counter-steering, you can see that it's decided to show oscillation, despite the car still rotating in the same direction, and my steering input going towards full opposite lock. This isn't 'assisting' me in anyway, it's far too late to have tried to stop the rotation which occured previously, and again, the oscillatoin min/max seems centered around my actual steering input, which is heading quickly to full lock counter-steered.

I then let the replay go and full speed, and fishtail a little, and eventually try for more attack angle as I exit the hangar, but nothing assists me in holding it, despite pretty quickly applying opposite lock.

My conclusion from the observations is fairly straight forward.
1. There is a 'glitch' that causes (in the telemetry, I don't feel a thing in the wheel, or see any thing affect suspension etc) an oscillation in the steering input, it's easily visible in telemetry, and no one is going to deny it.
2. I can't class it as an assist, it only occurs when pendulating (the first test proves it's not there for normal power oversteer), and it shows no technical merit as actually really arresting the slide, when it oscillates, it does reduce steering input momentarily which might be seen as assisting counter-steering (but doesn't actually swap lock in this case), but then it stupidly oscillates the other way and would be adding to the rotation.. it also doesn't try and catch anything the millisecond a slide occurs, it seems to be quite randomly occuring throughout the pendulation, sometimes it looks like it's occuring just as you apply the throttle, but then stops doing it and starts again for no reason what so ever.. Each time though it does oscillate 'about' the actual steering input applied by the user. I'm sure if you contrive the right conditions you could make it look as if it where assisting the arresting of rotation of the car, but it has to work solidly in all everyday situations to be classed as anything other then a glitch.
3. 100% though, it isn't anything you can tangible sense or feel whilst driving, all reports so far have been a subjective link from youtube videos showing an oscilation in the telemetry to thinking that's making cars easier to control, with this car, on this track, despite showing the glitch, at no time does it ever feel as if anything is remotely intervening or helping, the car is an animal to drive.

To say that this makes the game 'arcade' and suffering from a very obvious and noticeable assist that ruins the experience would seem quite far fetched.

I can do more tests if required, just holding full lock and slowly building speed up shows the way speed sensitive steering works, and there is that glitch where once the car rotates 180 degress, it seems to have a special case where it jumps to full lock in whatever direction you are holding the wheel, but since this is after the car swaps ends, and is dumb in the way it occurs in the direction of input, I can just about forgive it.

So IMO it's more glitch then any meaningful (and massively unwelcome) assist. I'd prefer if it didn't show the oscillations, I'd much rather the speed sensitive steering wasn't also present, but neither contribute to ruining the experience, or actually having a huge effect on the control of the car, that I'm afraid is all down to T10's setting of grip levels and understeering nature of their chassis'.

 

[boxox]

OK, I've just gone and done a video, just to show once and for all that it's a storm in a teacup.

Disclaimer, of course 'something' is happening, but as you'll see it's not half as sinister as you think (i.e. it's not really assisting you in any way).

Excuse the crap quality, it just about suffices


One observation however is that as the car swaps ends, the steering 'jumps' to almost full lock, there is some special case in this scenario when the car pivots 180 degrees, it seems to increase steering sensitivity, but notice if anything it's actually making the car turn even further into the slide rather then trying to help you by steering out of it.

Thing 1 that I would hate to forget to put in here - thanks so much for this, this is a really solid test.

However, I am not entirely sure this shows what you think it does, and this part above and -

5. 02:24 - It oscillates again as I'm now going into counter-steering, you can see that it's decided to show oscillation, despite the car still rotating in the same direction, and my steering input going towards full opposite lock. This isn't 'assisting' me in anyway, it's far too late to have tried to stop the rotation which occured previously, and again, the oscillatoin min/max seems centered around my actual steering input, which is heading quickly to full lock counter-steered.

this here is the part that I think gives it a big hint as to how it works. The key problem with auto-adjusting lock to stay within slip is what happens when you break traction - suddenly you have the player in a situation where rather than helping them, the steering lock adjust is actually limiting them from applying countersteer sufficiently to get out of a hard spin. This tends to be THE thing that's going on under the surface when you see someone calling a spin effect "canned" - the reason the spin tends to look so similar in so many situations is that there is really only a limited pool of things that can happen if a car is spun and has the front wheels trapped to try and stick within a slip / lock range that the game things is controllable. No assist on the rear wheels though, that's not actually linked to the steering system and doesn't have anything auto-adjusting camber or anything that would help you there. So it is still possible to overwhelm the front assist with power from the rear.

So yep, no doubt it is not actually helping you once you actually push past the limit. But that's only because the thing that was helping to keep you there turns counterproductive once you get out of the zone it helps you in.

To say that this makes the game 'arcade' and suffering from a very obvious and noticeable assist that ruins the experience would seem quite far fetched.

I can do more tests if required, just holding full lock and slowly building speed up shows the way speed sensitive steering works, and there is that glitch where once the car rotates 180 degress, it seems to have a special case where it jumps to full lock in whatever direction you are holding the wheel, but since this is after the car swaps ends, and is dumb in the way it occurs in the direction of input, I can just about forgive it.

So IMO it's more glitch then any meaningful (and massively unwelcome) assist. I'd prefer if it didn't show the oscillations, I'd much rather the speed sensitive steering wasn't also present, but neither contribute to ruining the experience, or actually having a huge effect on the control of the car, that I'm afraid is all down to T10's setting of grip levels and understeering nature of their chassis'.

Nobody is calling it "arcade" for that other than truly weird video game partisans, just "annoying" As I said a lot of PC sims, especially pre-"modern"-era (F1 99/02, NR2003) incarnations of racing games used to do this. I believe F1 2010 uses something similar to this too. It's just something I find immensely noticable if it's on and I think it was a totally dumb decision not to make it adjustable.

I don't have a capture card or really time to go into testing it in F3 (and I don't have a wheel which makes it slightly pointless) but if you would like to critique all the things something I've worked on does wrong you are welcome to pick Overhaul mod for Shift to pieces if you've got a gaming PC. Please be aware that I know exactly how hard it is to make something that is at least notionally mathematically sensible while still remaining 'fun' or 'controllable' in any way

 

[phil-t]

I need to say that Boxox, the video and responses aren't really aimed wholly at yourself, it's previous posters, and many on other forums that are using the youtube videos as some 'proof' of a massive automated counter-steering assist that makes the game drive like an arcade game, I think you've inadvertantly jumped in the middle, and have a more rational appraisal in your response..

The thing is, there are two seperate issues at play
1. The oscillatory high frequency effect that people are trying to claim is an auto counter-steering assist of the highest order
2. A simple linear, Speed sensitive steering 'lock reducing' algorithm.

I believe from your response that it is item 2. you are primarily concerned with (and there is no problem with doing that)..

So I'll respond to your post assuming this, but it's aimed more at others then yourself, it's better to put things in context and explain them more fully to ensure any confusion doesn't ensue and people start misusing our conversation as some proof of point 1 above.

Thing 1 that I would hate to forget to put in here - thanks so much for this, this is a really solid test.

However, I am not entirely sure this shows what you think it does, and this part above and -



this here is the part that I think gives it a big hint as to how it works. The key problem with auto-adjusting lock to stay within slip is what happens when you break traction - suddenly you have the player in a situation where rather than helping them, the steering lock adjust is actually limiting them from applying countersteer sufficiently to get out of a hard spin. This tends to be THE thing that's going on under the surface when you see someone calling a spin effect "canned" - the reason the spin tends to look so similar in so many situations is that there is really only a limited pool of things that can happen if a car is spun and has the front wheels trapped to try and stick within a slip / lock range that the game things is controllable. No assist on the rear wheels though, that's not actually linked to the steering system and doesn't have anything auto-adjusting camber or anything that would help you there. So it is still possible to overwhelm the front assist with power from the rear.

So yep, no doubt it is not actually helping you once you actually push past the limit. But that's only because the thing that was helping to keep you there turns counterproductive once you get out of the zone it helps you in.

I note two things from reading this.
1. The phrase "auto-adjusting lock to stay within slip" - For other people reading this discussion, it needs to be pointed out that 'lock' adjustment is linear with vehicle speed only, it is a dumb and most basic of equations. Basically below I think about 30-40MPH you have full lock available, once above this, the lock linearly reduces as the speed increases, so that at 150MPH, you might only have 50% of the lock available. If you find a large enough track, put the wheel to full lock in one direction, and slowly build up speed, you will see that in the telemetry the wheel shows it is at full lock, until a set speed, then slowly but surely the steering reduces until it's about 50% lock at some high speed.

2. What I think perhaps you might be slightly overlooking is that even with reduced lock, in the game itself, you always have enough lock to create very large slip angles on the front tyres (lots of understeer), so as long as you can move the wheel quickly from lock to lock, it's 'diminishment' of your ability to induce and control oversteer isn't as bad as you would think at first. As long as you can have enough lock to induce large slip angles, then it's not as much of a hinderence a you are exceeding the tyres ability to contribute in creating a rotational moment that will lead to oversteer.

I do agree it would be better of not there, of course, that goes without saying, but the speed sensitive steering isn't really the 'headline' that other people are trying to push on these videos, it's all about 'steers for you, auto counter-steering heavy assist'.. which is all borne out of the oscillatory effect shown, the speed sensitive steering is really being vastly mis-understood, as it has it's own quirks at low speed or when the car pivots beyond a set angle.

Nobody is calling it "arcade" for that other than truly weird video game partisans, just "annoying" As I said a lot of PC sims, especially pre-"modern"-era (F1 99/02, NR2003) incarnations of racing games used to do this. I believe F1 2010 uses something similar to this too. It's just something I find immensely noticable if it's on and I think it was a totally dumb decision not to make it adjustable.

I don't have a capture card or really time to go into testing it in F3 (and I don't have a wheel which makes it slightly pointless) but if you would like to critique all the things something I've worked on does wrong you are welcome to pick Overhaul mod for Shift to pieces if you've got a gaming PC. Please be aware that I know exactly how hard it is to make something that is at least notionally mathematically sensible while still remaining 'fun' or 'controllable' in any way

I don't doubt your work, and as I've said above, the arcade inference isn't from yourself, I was addressing someone else initially, and it's rife on many other forums, I think you've just come into the conversation a fraction late that is all!

I think we all want a balance of 'fun' to realism, and actually if I had a worthy PC and NFS Shift, I would like to probably try your mods, it sounds like you have made a real effort to address that balance..

 

[MowTin]

I need to say that Boxox, the video and responses aren't really aimed wholly at yourself, it's previous posters, and many on other forums that are using the youtube videos as some 'proof' of a massive automated counter-steering assist that makes the game drive like an arcade game, I think you've inadvertantly jumped in the middle, and have a more rational appraisal in your response..

You don't need a video and all this analysis to know that the counter-steering the FM3 feels assisted or way too easy. You're never in danger of losing the car the only danger is losing some speed because of a drift.

I think the FM3 physics were made such that you can drift easily with a gamepad.

If you drive properly you can't notice it but when you try to drive recklessly you notice it.

 

[Arklight]

GT5 is more fun to play than Forza 3, with a straight face.

Yeah, if grinding, garbage cars, and useless lisence tests are your idea of fun, than GT5 is epic.

 

[Arklight]

I do actually have a copy of Forza 3. I'm not bashing it out of ignorance, I assure you, though I haven't really played it much (I mainly use it for stealing the nice models and putting them in Shift PC ).

Is it possible to get the Mazda Lola from FM3 into Shift on the PC?

That would be awesome.

 

[boxox]

I don't know what the converters plans are - as far as I know it's american muscle cars first, european classic cars second, then see what happens. Most of the muscle cars are done. If you google you can find guides to extracting them from your F3 disc and I believe there are/were a few sites hosting pre-converted zmodeler format lod0's of cars and cockpits around if you want to take a stab at it yourself. Some have turned up in other games - GTA4, GTR Evolution, etc, as well.

 

[phil-t]

You don't need a video and all this analysis to know that the counter-steering the FM3 feels assisted or way too easy. You're never in danger of losing the car the only danger is losing some speed because of a drift.

I think the FM3 physics were made such that you can drift easily with a gamepad.

If you drive properly you can't notice it but when you try to drive recklessly you notice it.

I certainly agree that cars are easier to control, but I'm just identifying why this is, and grip levels and chassis default setups are the main reason. Just go and drive the same car/track in the video above to see that when grip levels etc are much reduced, how much of a handful the cars are. All I am saying is some parameter tweaking would yield a universally better driving experience in FM, it really is that simple.

 

[FyreandIce]

I certainly agree that cars are easier to control, but I'm just identifying why this is, and grip levels and chassis default setups are the main reason. Just go and drive the same car/track in the video above to see that when grip levels etc are much reduced, how much of a handful the cars are. All I am saying is some parameter tweaking would yield a universally better driving experience in FM, it really is that simple.

I think its down the the initial grip levels.

When you turn in too hard you're rewarded with understeer in almost all cars (only car that doesn't from memory is the CCGT) but the car should "dart" inwards and then have the back end come round.

Also, on the subject of the steering assist, the steering is made oh so much quicker when counter steering especially with a controller and that makes most slides easy to catch.

 

[infamousDee]

I think its down the the initial grip levels.

When you turn in too hard you're rewarded with understeer in almost all cars (only car that doesn't from memory is the CCGT) but the car should "dart" inwards and then have the back end come round.

Also, on the subject of the steering assist, the steering is made oh so much quicker when counter steering especially with a controller and that makes most slides easy to catch.

The only trouble with that, and this is quite possibly my biggest gripe with FM3's physics, is the conspicuous absence of the possibility to counter-steer too vigorously and get into a tank-slapper. This gives driving tail-happy, RWD cars the most awful, unrealistic feeling.

 

[VXR]

A tank-slapper is what lead to me writing off my E36 - maybe that's why I like FM3 so much.

 

[FyreandIce]

The only trouble with that, and this is quite possibly my biggest gripe with FM3's physics, is the conspicuous absence of the possibility to counter-steer too vigorously and get into a tank-slapper. This gives driving tail-happy, RWD cars the most awful, unrealistic feeling.

You can get into tank slappers in RWD cars but you kinda of need to be trying to.

 

[otago]

I think the FM3 physics were made such that you can drift easily with a gamepad.

That's a fine focus point in making racing simulator game

 

[boxox]

There's an interview with Dan Greenewalt in autosimsport vol 5 issue 3 where he goes into their gamepad control philosophy a bit. Personally I found it a bit of a disturbing read because it sounds like an attempt to make "tap left 3 times quickly" equal "steer out perfectly" the way you might expect to read some guy at Capcom talk about making "quarter circle and fierce punch" equal "shoryuken".

 

[phil-t]

There's an interview with Dan Greenewalt in autosimsport vol 5 issue 3 where he goes into their gamepad control philosophy a bit. Personally I found it a bit of a disturbing read because it sounds like an attempt to make "tap left 3 times quickly" equal "steer out perfectly" the way you might expect to read some guy at Capcom talk about making "quarter circle and fierce punch" equal "shoryuken".

I interpreted that article differently, if it's the same one I read, it sounded more like they spent a lot of time working out how to 'detect' when the user needed finer control and so damped the joypad inputs quite reasonably, but then (presumably from physics engine feedback) when to allow very quick control, e.g. when oversteering, and the user quickly applies oppo lock, it'll reduce filtering to almost zero and allow quick amounts of lock to be attained, but when cornering normally, the steering input is damped enough to give fine control.

Since I play with some pretty quick pad players, I've realised that T10 actually do a good job of making the game very playable with a pad.. Sure the pad players do have this variability in the control that comes no doubt from the physics engine data, and 'assistance', but it makes pad and wheel users pretty equal, which is quite a feat in itself.

I'm sure simplistically people will claim that's a bad thing, but bear in mind that even in the most of arcade handling models like in F1 2010 for example, it shows how much disparity you can get between a pad and a wheel even if you aren't careful..

 

[Greyum]

Yeah, if grinding, garbage cars, and useless lisence tests are your idea of fun, than GT5 is epic.

Haha, too right! After waiting 6 years for GT5 and buying a PS3 specifically for it, after a week with the game I realised that it was SO dull and underwhelming that I have sold my PS3 and bought a 360 S with Forza 3. I should have done this years ago, but hindsight and all that...

 

[Daddybird]

Haha, too right! After waiting 6 years for GT5 and buying a PS3 specifically for it, after a week with the game I realised that it was SO dull and underwhelming that I have sold my PS3 and bought a 360 S with Forza 3. I should have done this years ago, but hindsight and all that...

Kaz san:

"Things are just getting started"

The funniest thing ever said in the gaming world.👍

 

[infamousDee]

Haha, too right! After waiting 6 years for GT5 and buying a PS3 specifically for it, after a week with the game I realised that it was SO dull and underwhelming that I have sold my PS3 and bought a 360 S with Forza 3. I should have done this years ago, but hindsight and all that...

After waiting 2 years for FM3 and buying a 360 specifically for it, after a week with the game I realised that it was SO dull and underwhelming that I left my 360 to collect dust, bought a PS3 Slim and pre-ordered Gran Turismo 5. I should have done this months ago, but hindsight and all that...

Opinions are amazing things, aren't they?

 

[Astro-Racer]

I picked up the FM3 Ultimate Edition today.

Boy, the car list is amazing O.o Such a perfect blend of old and new (All premium too!)

As soon as I'm done with GT5 (at the current rate, will be another week or so). I'm going to get stuck in to F3.

 

[Bogie 19th]

After waiting 2 years for FM3 and buying a 360 specifically for it, after a week with the game I realised that it was SO dull and underwhelming that I left my 360 to collect dust, bought a PS3 Slim and pre-ordered Gran Turismo 5. I should have done this months ago, but hindsight and all that...

Opinions are amazing things, aren't they?

I see what you did there.

 

[Lil Ape]

After waiting 2 years for FM3 and buying a 360 specifically for it, after a week with the game I realised that it was SO dull and underwhelming that I left my 360 to collect dust, bought a PS3 Slim and pre-ordered Gran Turismo 5. I should have done this months ago, but hindsight and all that...

Opinions are amazing things, aren't they?

Better to wait 2 years for a disappointing game than 6 years.

Then again FM3 wasn't a huge letdown like GT5.

 

[tyl0r_r]

Yeah, if grinding, garbage cars, and useless lisence tests are your idea of fun, than GT5 is epic.

I prefer the driving. Which is better.

 

[infamousDee]

Better to wait 2 years for a disappointing game than 6 years.

Then again FM3 wasn't a huge letdown like GT5.

No, you're absolutely right, it wasn't. For something to be a letdown there first needs to be the anticipation of something positive.

I prefer the driving. Which is better.

This. GT5 may be flawed, but until Turn 10 sort their driving physics out, FM4 will never come close.

 

[VXR]

Or y'know, they can leave the physics pretty much as they are for those who like them.

 

[Arklight]

I prefer the driving. Which is better.

In circles at Indy?

 

[Bogie 19th]

Better to wait 2 years for a disappointing game than 6 years. Then again FM3 wasn't a huge letdown like GT5.

Well stated, and couldn't agree more. Here is to hoping that FM4 is the sim we have been looking for. I just wish FM3 would have had qualifying and pits.

 

[prymet1me]

Been lurking for a while and decided to register because I finally purchased GT5 and put a few hours into it. I will just say glad I own both and GT5 made me appreciate FM3 and 2 MUCH more.

 

[GMW]

Been lurking for a while and decided to register because I finally purchased GT5 and put a few hours into it. I will just say glad I own both and GT5 made me appreciate FM3 and 2 MUCH more.

I bought FM2 then FM3 to tide me till GT5. I must say having the option to buy FM2 and FM3 make me happier as a driving game fanatic than no FM at all. I enjoy GT5 more than FM2 & 3 but then I like all car games and there will always be space for Forza x in my driving time. I also just bought Hot Pursiut to play in between my marathon GT5 sessions. Though I might wait for the next Xbox to buy that versions Forza unless T10 do something amazing for Forza 4.

Overall, I find the physics of Forza not yet on the same level of GT but there is fun to be had playing it so if you own both consoles why not buy both?

One thing I really hope for in future Forza games is that Turn10 would let us use our Logitech steering wheels with Forza rather than just he Microsoft one.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Better to wait 2 years for a disappointing game than 6 years.

Then again FM3 wasn't a huge letdown like GT5.

Thats a GREAT point. I am in no way disappointed with Forza 3. Some things yes but nothig major. If someone is disappointed with F3 I cant even imagine the disappointment with GT5. It still kills me every time I get stuck in a standard car with no interior view and the lack of options in those standard cars. Just kills me and the game. But I have to admit that is the new joke online in the "random" car playlists. "Yes!! I got a premium this time!!!" I actually laugh quite a bit. I was lucky enough to get into 2 premium cars last night online after about 3 hours of playing. So once you start getting used to the standard cars, the premium cars are like a little mini treat. As sad as that sounds its true.

Each game has something the other one doesnt but GT5 is much much much more disappointing than any other game I have ever played especially after 6 years of development. I am hoping Forza 4 takes the best from both games. There is already rumor of day/night, weather, and rally racing. That would sum up the majority of the items that are in GT5. I did make a list of items I would like to see in F4 so hopefully it happens. T10 does a great job listening to the community. Overall the more I play GT5, the more I appreciate how great of a job they did with Forza 3 with only 2 years development time.

 

[superb16]

Just got an Xbox and FM3 for Christmas. I'm so glad I didn't listen to the GT fanboys. Overall GT5's physics are a little better, especially under braking. The exteriors of GT5's premium cars look a little better than FM3. The interiors of GT5's premium cars look A LOT better than FM3. But remember, FM3 still looks better than 80% of GT5! I'm loving Forza so much that I haven't touched GT5 in days. It certainly isn't the arcade racer GT fanboys said it was. I'm having fun driving cars that are actually worth racing. I think about playing GT5, but I really don't feel like doing the same race twenty times just to level up or buy a decent sports car.