Future Vision GT Engine ideas

[Swagger897]

BMW, Lexus, and Spano are the only others that come to mind. Ford used V10s for trucks and SUVs, but they are relatively rare to see in cars. I'd love to see an AMG V10 though.

BMW and Lexus have stopped production of the V10's... Never heard of spano and didn't find much...

 

[OriginalCheezIt]

I know that the BMW and Lexus V10s are out of production, I just thought I'd mention them due to the fact that they are still modern engines.

Spoiler: I SUCK. CLICK HERE TO SEE MY SUCKAGE.

And Spano is a Spanish manufacturer that makes this beauty:

Spano GTA, with a 900hp twin turbo supercharged V10. 👍

EDIT: Apologies, GTA is actually the manufacturer, so it's the GTA Spano

Never mind on the GTA, it uses a Viper engine

 

[Swagger897]

ahh... that makes sense now about the GTA

 

[wvmgmidget]

What VGT so far has used completely fantacy technology? I've seen each car use real technology in concept car packaging. Even the ERS on the Nissan is real tech. I expect to see more of the same, and I would truly be upset if the tech used became completely fictitious. 10 cylinder boxer engine Rally Car? Seriously? There are reasons there are no Boxer10 Rally cars.

This is more "Concept Car" vs "Fantacy Car"

A flat ten although rare, isn't fantasy. Also the Aston Martin VGT is a twin turbo V12 and can do rally. Other than reliability, not used in production cars and possibly regulations why exactly why aren't flat tens being put in rally cars?

 

[Griffith500]

A flat ten would require knowledge and understanding of ("high-speed"), straight 5s, which didn't occur until the '70s. It was probably something about the 20 or so different firing orders to test in terms of balance, combustion torsion and inertial torsion. The issue is different for V10s, "180-V"-10s and Boxer 10s as it is from inline 5s, and different again for 2-strokes; they all require separate research and testing to find the best compromise.

At the end of the day, a ten cylinder engine is pretty bulky, and flat engines are relatively cumbersome.


So I vote H16.

If this guy can do it, so can car manufacturers with all their resources. They'd need to use cross-plane cranks, though, which might seem like the harder route at first, but three failed attempts in history using flat-plane cranks would perhaps say otherwise...

 

[Aesthetics]

Nuclear power, It certainly has it's advantages when racing with others.

Other than that, what about a hybrid that recharges the electric motor with solar power during the day? Endurance races come to mind..

Or take a step back in time, and use steam?

 

[MatskiMonk]

Needs more 1935.

Such as... a modern interpretation of a 4.0 litre, 16 cylinder, 2 Bank Radial engine, utilising 2 cyclinder per combustion chamber "technology".

The Monaco-Trossi F1 car.

It's in the suggestion thread too https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/trossi-monaco-radial-gp-car-1935.300962/

 

[Griffith500]

8 cylinders per row, so it must be a two-stroke; is that what you meant by two cylinders per combustion chamber?

It's fascinating, because it's clearly built for that purpose, and not reappropriated from aero usage, like most radials in cars.

I wonder how designers would incorporate that, uh, interesting packaging today!

EDIT: that looks like Goodwood (nice Capri in the background), and yet there are no videos of it I can find!
EDIT: Nope; Museo Nazionale dell'Automobile in Turin. I've also just noticed it's front-wheel drive - nuts!

Thanks for that; it was fun.

 

[Swagger897]

Needs more 1935.

Such as... a modern interpretation of a 4.0 litre, 16 cylinder, 2 Bank Radial engine, utilising 2 cyclinder per combustion chamber "technology".

The Monaco-Trossi F1 car.

It's in the suggestion thread too https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/trossi-monaco-radial-gp-car-1935.300962/

i keep thinking that this car would give me the same feeling when Richard Hammond described the Porsche 918 acceleration..

8 cylinders per row, so it must be a two-stroke; is that what you meant by two cylinders per combustion chamber?

It's fascinating, because it's clearly built for that purpose, and not reappropriated from aero usage, like most radials in cars.

I wonder how designers would incorporate that, uh, interesting packaging today!

EDIT: that looks like Goodwood (nice Capri in the background), and yet there are no videos of it I can find!

i havent found much anything else on this either, other than the 1935 season races at monaco and monza. Apparently this and Auto Union (now Audi) were the only two running 16 cylinder racers.

 

[Swagger897]

delete

 

[Griffith500]

i keep thinking that this car would give me the same feeling when Richard Hammond described the Porsche 918 acceleration..


i havent found much anything else on this either, other than the 1935 season races at monaco and monza. Apparently this and Auto Union (now Audi) were the only two running 16 cylinder racers.

I think a 16 cylinder GP engine is a rarity overall, but BRM made two: the V16 and the later H16.

Coventry Climax made a flat-16 that never got off the test bed, for (it seems) similar reasons that BRM's H16 was so unreliable. Porsche also tried a flat-16, intended for CanAm racing, but development was halted early when the turbo 12s proved promising. They did make and field a flat-8 F1 engine, though! That was a troublesome design, too.

It'd be great to see what modern materials and engineering could make of these ideas today.

 

[NT_03]

So you can torch the competition! Literally.

And out-lap the X1 many, many times.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

A flat ten although rare, isn't fantasy. Also the Aston Martin VGT is a twin turbo V12 and can do rally. Other than reliability, not used in production cars and possibly regulations why exactly why aren't flat tens being put in rally cars?

A flat 10 rally car is a bad idea. However, interesting you say its not fantasy, please post a link to a flat 10 so I can at least take a look at an engine that won't ever be in a viable Rally car

I see most (not all) VGT cars to be around 615pp

 

[Aesthetics]

The only thing I found about flat-10s was that Chevrolet was planning on putting one in a full-sized corvair..

 

[OriginalCheezIt]

A flat 10 rally car is stupid. However, interesting you say its not fantasy, please post a link to a flat 10 so I can at least take a look at an engine that won't ever be in a viable Rally car

I see most (not all) VGT cars to be around 615pp

 

[wvmgmidget]

A flat 10 rally car is stupid. However, interesting you say its not fantasy, please post a link to a flat 10 so I can at least take a look at an engine that won't ever be in a viable Rally car

I see most (not all) VGT cars to be around 615pp

The full size corvair project was what I was referring to. The rally car was more of a suggestion since Subaru the only participating VGT company that currently sells flat engine cars and Subaru is known for rally. Which is a 6 litre V12 any better for rally? In a road car it would be cool and more sensible. Concept cars are about innovation and pushing boundaries and with modern technology a flat 10 is more possible than it was during the 60's. Also, while both a flat 10 and a large two stroke would be difficult it wouldn't be impossible. As for it not being fantasy it's more likely than rocket power, nuclear, and souls (no offense to anybody, those are cool ideas they are far from reality/practicality)

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

The full size corvair project was what I was referring to. The rally car was more of a suggestion since Subaru the only participating VGT company that currently sells flat engine cars and Subaru is known for rally. Which is a 6 litre V12 any better for rally? In a road car it would be cool and more sensible. Concept cars are about innovation and pushing boundaries and with modern technology a flat 10 is more possible than it was during the 60's. Also, while both a flat 10 and a large two stroke would be difficult it wouldn't be impossible. As for it not being fantasy it's more likely than rocket power, nuclear, and souls (no offense to anybody, those are cool ideas they are far from reality/practicality)

A flat 10 being possible and a viable Rally engine are not the same thing. I don't doubt the possibility of a flat 10 or i7 or any other weird suggestion. The point is that its silly. Using a flat 10, v10 v12 etc is not fitting to Rally. There is a reason no manufactuer is waisting time building silly engines just because. They usually have logical reasoning guiding them.

Concept cars push the boundaries but not into let's be silly and do stuff just because territory. Or let's just run them on hampster wheels.

You want concept tech, how about an engine with variable compression ratio.

 

[MatskiMonk]

8 cylinders per row, so it must be a two-stroke; is that what you meant by two cylinders per combustion chamber?

It's fascinating, because it's clearly built for that purpose, and not reappropriated from aero usage, like most radials in cars.

I wonder how designers would incorporate that, uh, interesting packaging today!

EDIT: that looks like Goodwood (nice Capri in the background), and yet there are no videos of it I can find!
EDIT: Nope; Museo Nazionale dell'Automobile in Turin. I've also just noticed it's front-wheel drive - nuts!

Thanks for that; it was fun.

Two cylinders per combustions chamber, a.k.a. Split-single: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-single

 

[MatskiMonk]

So, my continuing issues with getting to, and staying asleep.. and a less than motivated morning in the office, lead me to come up with this basic drive-train concept...

16 Litre - 8 banks of 2.0 litre, 5 cylinder radial engines, 4 at the front, 4 at the back, mounted at 90° so the engine spins in direction of axle rotation, with the gearboxes being mounted in parrellel with the radial banks, driving the wheels directly. With the engines mounted so close to, and behind, the wheels - the resultant force of the engine rotation helps force the tyres down on to the road! Each bank is rotated around it's axis slightly to give the smoothest balance along each banks common crankshaft. Cooling required is much less than V/Inline engines as each cylinder is inherantley air-cooled also.

Quad Electrically Driven Turbo - No Hybrid drive here, the large electric motors drive the large turbos, from batteries that are kept permanently charge by an on demand 3 cylinder engine mounted in the navigators position. One intercooler per Turbo, feeding 2 radials each. Maximum boost is available the instant the drivers toe touches the throttle.

222hp per 2.0 litre radial = 888hp per bank, 2 banks = 1776hp.

A: Radial 1, 2.0 5 cylinder
B: Radial 2, 2.0 5 cylinder
C: Radial 3, 2.0 5 cylinder
D: Radial 4, 2.0 5 cylinder
E: e-Turbo 1, feeds Radial 1 and 2
F: e-Turbo 2, feeds Radial 3 and 4
G: electric motor 1, drives Turbo 1 and 2
H: Intercooler 1
I: Intercooler 2
J: Front bank gearbox
K: Frontal radiator bank
L: Battery pack 1
M: Battery pack 2
N: 1.5l 3 cylinder engine/generator
O: Radial 5, 2.0 5 cylinder
P: Radial 6, 2.0 5 cylinder
Q: Radial 7, 2.0 5 cylinder
R: Radial 8, 2.0 5 cylinder
S: e-Turbo 3, feeds Radial 5 and 6
T: e-Turbo 4, feeds Radial 7 and 8
U: electric motor 2, drives Turbo 3 and 4
V: Intercooler 3
W: Intercooler 4
X: Rear bank gearbox
Y: Radiator for Radial 5 and 6
Z: Radiator for Radial 7 and 8


I mocked it up in sketch-up, I'll maybe print it off and trace a body design over it since I can't draw curves in SU for toffee (same reason why there's no piping or ducting! - and no, I didn't do the wheels myself!)

 

[Griffith500]

Haha, that's the way to do it!

Two cylinders per combustions chamber, a.k.a. Split-single: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-single

Thanks, I thought about it afterwards and it twigged. It truly appears to be the product of a mad genius!
I can only imagine what it sounded like; like a screaming and popping straight-8 / boxer sound, I'd guess.

Cracking article on DKW's force-fed split-singles, here.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Couple more renders since it's lunch time..

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

Okay, now that's just awesome.

 

[Grayfox]

Light Weight Materials.

Seems nothing but land yachts with them.

The Nissan is a good example, horrid steering.

You'd think it would be made out of some space age material being made for the year 2020.

That has no relevance, I'm just suggesting a V10 engine. I love V10s.

No real reason why they cant.

Who says a V10/Flat 10 has to have a huge displacement?

Make each cylinder 160cc or 180cc and you would have a 1.6l or 1.8l engine

They make cylinders that are 164cc(kei cars)

It should then have a low idle and have a V10 like sound.

It should also be turbo charged

 

[Venom800tt]

I also would like to see a gas turbine VGT car. I got two Lotus 56 1/18 models and a 1/43 Howmet TX model, not to mention I work on actual turbine powered vehicles (regional jets lol...) Maybe a LHTEC T800 turboshaft from the RAH-66 Comanche would be nice, especially if coupled with an electrically driven front axle. Turbine-electric hybrids amuse me greatly.
Another one is an idea I had come up with when designing one of my own fictional cars. It is a quad turbo 8.0L Boxer 16 using carbon-ceramic pistons and cylinder liners, titanium connecting rods and crank, dual spark plugs, and 5 valves per cylinder. I think that would be perfect for a VGT type car.

 

[Aesthetics]

I have a new idea: Diesel-Hybrid because torque.

 

[Grayfox]

I have a new idea: Diesel-Hybrid because torque.

Why dont too many of these things, if any in the real world

Diesels get better MPG and combining it with an electric engine would give it more MPG

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

Why dont too many of these things, if any in the real world

Diesels get better MPG and combining it with an electric engine would give it more MPG

Market demands or lack there of, viable marketable applications.

Diesel is great for tq, not so much rpms. Performance engines are much about maximizing tq and engine speed as both net more HP.

 

[wvmgmidget]

So, my continuing issues with getting to, and staying asleep.. and a less than motivated morning in the office, lead me to come up with this basic drive-train concept...

16 Litre - 8 banks of 2.0 litre, 5 cylinder radial engines, 4 at the front, 4 at the back, mounted at 90° so the engine spins in direction of axle rotation, with the gearboxes being mounted in parrellel with the radial banks, driving the wheels directly. With the engines mounted so close to, and behind, the wheels - the resultant force of the engine rotation helps force the tyres down on to the road! Each bank is rotated around it's axis slightly to give the smoothest balance along each banks common crankshaft. Cooling required is much less than V/Inline engines as each cylinder is inherantley air-cooled also.

Quad Electrically Driven Turbo - No Hybrid drive here, the large electric motors drive the large turbos, from batteries that are kept permanently charge by an on demand 3 cylinder engine mounted in the navigators position. One intercooler per Turbo, feeding 2 radials each. Maximum boost is available the instant the drivers toe touches the throttle.

222hp per 2.0 litre radial = 888hp per bank, 2 banks = 1776hp.

View attachment 200142 View attachment 200143

A: Radial 1, 2.0 5 cylinder
B: Radial 2, 2.0 5 cylinder
C: Radial 3, 2.0 5 cylinder
D: Radial 4, 2.0 5 cylinder
E: e-Turbo 1, feeds Radial 1 and 2
F: e-Turbo 2, feeds Radial 3 and 4
G: electric motor 1, drives Turbo 1 and 2
H: Intercooler 1
I: Intercooler 2
J: Front bank gearbox
K: Frontal radiator bank
L: Battery pack 1
M: Battery pack 2
N: 1.5l 3 cylinder engine/generator
O: Radial 5, 2.0 5 cylinder
P: Radial 6, 2.0 5 cylinder
Q: Radial 7, 2.0 5 cylinder
R: Radial 8, 2.0 5 cylinder
S: e-Turbo 3, feeds Radial 5 and 6
T: e-Turbo 4, feeds Radial 7 and 8
U: electric motor 2, drives Turbo 3 and 4
V: Intercooler 3
W: Intercooler 4
X: Rear bank gearbox
Y: Radiator for Radial 5 and 6
Z: Radiator for Radial 7 and 8


I mocked it up in sketch-up, I'll maybe print it off and trace a body design over it since I can't draw curves in SU for toffee (same reason why there's no piping or ducting! - and no, I didn't do the wheels myself!)

I like this idea and I'd like to see with the body. Also what materials would be used to make this to keep the car lightweight?

 

[MatskiMonk]

I like this idea and I'd like to see with the body. Also what materials would be used to make this to keep the car lightweight?

CFRP & Aluminium wherever possible for the chassis - I'd imagine the front and rear drive train assemblies being mounted to CF subframes, these being bolted to an Aluminium and CF chassis, with a CF passenger tub. Body panels would be CFRP in aero-important areas, plastic in less important areas, and stretched PU Coated elastic fabric in other areas. To help the natural air-cooling of the engines, some of the innards would be visible through large vents in the panels - but intercoolers, turbos, and brakes would all have relatively elegant ducting. All the casings etc for he gearboxes etc. would be CFRP, along with drive shafts etc.

Primarily though, with 1700hp on tap, getting the thing moving wouldn't be too much of a problem, and to aid cornering, some active aero dynamics and a small degree of rear-wheel steering.

My problem is, I could spend ages modelling the guts of it in 3D, but I honestly can't sculpt body panels in the virtual environment with a damn. So I wouldn't hold your breath to see one with the body on. I've got an idea of how it would look, just can't get it down.

 

[stuff1138]

On the topic of large cy count flat motors. I knew about the Ferarri Testarossa having a flat 12 but after a short wikipedia search it turns out Subaru, Porche and Mercedes have all dabbled in the flat 12s too. Subaru actually built theirs for the wildly unsuccessful Scuderia Coloni F1 team in 1990. They never actually qualified for a race at all that year though.