Gay Marriage

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Since when is incest EVER acceptable where by is should be made legal to protect civil rights?

Why should it be illegal? Again, I need a rational, non-religious reason.

Pako
I'll tell you....evidence of the moral decline of this country is when people like yourself say it's acceptable.

Moral as defined by.... Christianity?

Nobody gets to marry people of the same sex. Not straight people, not gay people. Nobody. (no rootbeer fountain).

Why?

Minnesota01R6
The government isn't in the business of providing arbitrary services just because people's feelings are hurt either.

I completely agree.

That's the problem with incest - sometimes non-reproductive purposes accidentally become reproductive.

At that point, you've caused harm to another person and are a criminal.

That's ok though. Deformities are not 100%. You can always kill the deformed baby's after they're born or better yet, as soon as they are detected as being deformed in the womb.

There, now we don't even have to exclude incest marriage to anyone, even if they do want to reproduce.

This is of course not my opinion or something I support but am showing you how far we can justify immorality.

Immoral as defined by.... Christianity?
 
Nobody gets to marry people of the same sex. Not straight people, not gay people. Nobody. (no rootbeer fountain).

Doesn't make sense. A rootbeer fountain is something everybody desires. Blacks, whites. A rootbeer fountain is something everybody can lust after.

Are you saying that gay marriage is the pinnacle, and to treat everyone fairly, the government denys the "ultimate contract?" I'm sorry. Not everyone would like to participate in a gay marriage. That would be like taking away the righ tto practise Islam in our nation. Christians wouldn't care, that decision wouldn't affect them; they probably wouldn't want to practice Islam. Muslims would riot.
 
What sort of incest are we starting to talk about here? Are we talking about intimate relationships? (sexual and non-sexual)
 
What sort of incest are we starting to talk about here? Are we talking about intimate relationships? (sexual and non-sexual)

Marriage implies a sexual relationship although the law does not define sexual or even having a loving relationship as a requirement for marriage. What defines marriage is the ability to make the decision of their own free will and being a man and a woman once they meet age and blood result requirements.
 
I had a friend come over last night who has been openly gay since the 8th grade. We got into an in depth discussion about what it is to be gay and all that sort. Then, gay marriage came up.

My gay friend is opposed to gay marriage. He feels that the unity of that nature should be sacred to that of only a man and a woman. Having a life partner is good enough for him.

I feel that if it doesn't hurt me, it shouldn't bother me. Who am I to say what two people should be allowed to do. If gays want to wed, so be it.
 
Marriage implies a sexual relationship although the law does not define sexual or even having a loving relationship as a requirement for marriage. What defines marriage is the ability to make the decision of their own free will and being a man and a woman once they meet age and blood result requirements.
Does Montana still do blood tests? When I got married they said, "Are you related?" We said, "No," and signed a sheet of paper. Done, marriage license in hand.

I had a friend come over last night who has been openly gay since the 8th grade. We got into an in depth discussion about what it is to be gay and all that sort. Then, gay marriage came up.

My gay friend is opposed to gay marriage. He feels that the unity of that nature should be sacred to that of only a man and a woman. Having a life partner is good enough for him.

I feel that if it doesn't hurt me, it shouldn't bother me. Who am I to say what two people should be allowed to do. If gays want to wed, so be it.
I know a few gay people who don't care, but have life partners. I also no others who have little or no plans of having life partners buyt think they should have the option, were it to become an issue for them.
 
What sort of incest are we starting to talk about here? Are we talking about intimate relationships? (sexual and non-sexual)

Incest, by definition, is a sexual relationship between close family members.
 
Does Montana still do blood tests? When I got married they said, "Are you related?" We said, "No," and signed a sheet of paper. Done, marriage license in hand.

*snip*

Here's some Montana marriage requirements:
Marriage licenses are obtained from the Clerk of District Court's office located in the Law and Justice Center. The license can be used immediately or within 180 days from the date of application. It is valid in any county within Montana, but not in any other state or country. After the marriage ceremony, the person who performed the ceremony must return the license to the Clerk's office within 30 days for completion. Once it is returned to the couple, the license can be used as proof of name change with Social Security and in changing the name on a driver's license.

What to bring to obtain a marriage license: (See below for additional requirements if under 18.)

Both the bride and groom must appear.

Each must show a valid driver's license issued by any state. A valid passport or birth certificate can be used in place of a driver's license.

The bride between the ages of 18 and 50 must submit proof of having a rubella blood test taken. Any clinic/doctor's office in Montana will give her a half sheet document entitled State of Montana Premarital Certificate. This specific document is required and a license cannot be issued without it. Both bride and groom's signature is witnessed on this document at the time they apply for the license. Out-of-state brides only must submit proof of having the rubella blood test on official letterhead from the doctor, clinic, or lab where the test was taken. It must state her name, the date of the test, and the doctor's signature. Again, both bride and groom will sign this document at the Clerk's office at the time of application. If the bride is unable to bear children, she must submit proof from her doctor. This statement will also be signed by both bride and groom and kept in our files.

If either party was previously married, the full name of the ex-spouse as well as the exact date of the divorce or death must be written on the application. The dissolution decree or death certificate are not required as proof.

Cost:
The fee for a marriage license is $53.00 in cash. Checks, debit cards, and credit cards are not accepted.

A Montana marriage can be solemnized by:
Clergy (out-of-state clergy need not be registered in Montana)
Judge (or retired judge) of a court of record
Public official whose powers include solemnization of marriages
Mayor, City Judge, Justice of the Peace
Tribal Judge

Marriage Licenses for those aged 16-18:
A person must be at least 16 to marry in Montana. Follow above requirements with the following additions:

Obtain parental permission (they will sign the application form from Clerk's office, not online form)

Show proof of couple attending two counseling sessions prior to filling out application

Obtain Judicial approval

Contact Clerk's office to get proper paperwork and more specific instructions.

For Out-of-state applicants who are unable to be present at Clerk of District Court's Office prior to ceremony:
Fill out the Montana Marriage Application before a Clerk of District Court or a Notary Public in your state. The Clerk of District Court or Notary Public that you appear before must swear you in to tell the truth. You must complete boxes 5a through 26d and 32a through 35c. You must also put your signature in Boxes 36a and 36b. Either the Clerk of District Court or the Notary Public must complete boxes 37 and 38 and affix their seal thereto.

The bride, if she's younger than 50, must submit proof of a rubella blood test or proof that she is unable to bear children. The document of proof for either case must be signed by her doctor or the lab technician, then signed by both bride and groom.

After completing the marriage application, send the following to the Gallatin County Clerk of District Court, 615 South 16th Street, Room 302, Bozeman, MT 59715:

1. Completed Montana Marriage Application, signed by both bride and groom and either the Clerk of District Court or a Notary Public with their seal.

2. Proof of rubella blood test or inability to bear children signed by doctor and both bride and groom.

3. $53 for the license fee. (Money Order only - no personal checks)

4. Statement of how to proceed when license is complete. At your request, we can mail the license to you or give it to someone you designate to pick it up for you.

When we receive the documents, we will then issue a Montana Marriage License for you to get married within the State of Montana. You must come to Montana and be married within 180 days. After that time, the application expires and you would have to reapply.
 
Here's some Montana marriage requirements:
Oh, yeah. We had to pay a fee too.


So, if you fail the rubella test or show that you can't have children are you denied the license? In all reality, what's the point?
 
So, if you fail the rubella test or show that you can't have children are you denied the license? In all reality, what's the point?

The point is to prevent congenital rubella syndrome. You are not denied a license for either of those reasons. The state just wants to make sure you know your status for rubella before you start having kids. If you cannot get pregnant, it doesn't matter so you don't need the test.

You can read this link to see some proposed changes in the law in order to allow people to refuse the test.
 
Just saw a Rosie O'Donnell commercial on HBO FAMILY, she had 5 year olds saying it doesnt matter if you have 2 mommies or 2 daddies.

How low can you go, trying to warp the mind of children. Trump was right, Rosie is scum
 
How does that warp the mind of a child? If the child grows up in a loving home with two mom's or two dad's I don't see what the big deal is?

Plenty of kids grow up in far worse off family situations, single parent, neglectful parents, abusive parents, etc.
 
Just saw a Rosie O'Donnell commercial on HBO FAMILY, she had 5 year olds saying it doesnt matter if you have 2 mommies or 2 daddies.

How low can you go, trying to warp the mind of children. Trump was right, Rosie is scum

God, you're right. How dare HBO inform children about the love between 2 people.

QUICK! SOMEONE STOP THEM!
 
Just saw a Rosie O'Donnell commercial on HBO FAMILY, she had 5 year olds saying it doesnt matter if you have 2 mommies or 2 daddies.

How low can you go, trying to warp the mind of children. Trump was right, Rosie is scum

I am struggling to understand the context in which you use the word 'warp' perhaps you can elaborate.
 
How does that warp the mind of a child? If the child grows up in a loving home with two mom's or two dad's I don't see what the big deal is?

Plenty of kids grow up in far worse off family situations, single parent, neglectful parents, abusive parents, etc.

You think two moms or two dads is superior to a mom and dad?

Also, one bad doesnt make another better or a worthy replacement.

Jondot
God, you're right. How dare HBO inform children about the love between 2 people.

QUICK! SOMEONE STOP THEM!

This is not the homosexuality thread. Go defend it there

Stevisov
I am struggling to understand the context in which you use the word 'warp' perhaps you can elaborate.

Was that word a little too strong for you?

Gay marriage has turned into a political issue, how dare she take this issue to little children who are not old enough to think for their own.

Even when talking about homosexuality when I was young my mother never really told me it was wrong, she only told me what it was about and I made my own decision.
 
Just saw a Rosie O'Donnell commercial on HBO FAMILY, she had 5 year olds saying it doesnt matter if you have 2 mommies or 2 daddies.

How low can you go, trying to warp the mind of children. Trump was right, Rosie is scum

You seriously need to justify those sentiments before continuing this line of dialogue.
 
You think two moms or two dads is superior to a mom and dad?

Also, one bad doesnt make another better or a worthy replacement.

And I made what insinuation that two same sex parents were superior to a male/female set of parents? Perhaps you should read what I wrote again.

If the two same sex parents are loving and caring for the child there is no reason they can't be on the same level as opposite sex parents. However, they can be just as neglectful. The sex of the parent's doesn't have any affect on the quality of parenting, just as the race, religion, cultural background, and economic status doesn't either.

I know a lesbian couple, they have a 10 year old daughter and she seems to be a normal 10 year old girl who has extremely loving and caring parents who give her the world. Their daughter is no better or worse off then if she would have been raised in the same manner by opposite sex parents.

Is the world still this backwards that we thing same sex parents are incapable of rearing a child?
 
You think two moms or two dads is superior to a mom and dad?

I'm struggling to see the part of his post which infers he thinks two mums is better than a mum and a dad, feel free to highlight it for me.

This is not the homosexuality thread. Go defend it there

I am struggling to see how Jondot's comments don't belong in this thread, perhaps you could highlight that too.

Was that word a little too strong for you?

Strong? no, inaccurate - perhaps.

Gay marriage has turned into a political issue, how dare she take this issue to little children who are not old enough to think for their own.

I couldn't disagree more, children should be encouraged to think for their own, they shouldn't however have an opinion forced upon them.

Telling young children that gay marriage is wrong, is unproductive.

Telling young children that gay marriage is better than normal marriage is also unproductive.

What would be more productive, would be to tell children that gay marriage exists, as does normal marriage, and let formulate their own opinion of both over time.

When I was highschool I used to think that it was wrong to allow gay adoption because it was my opinion that the children of the gay family would be bullied considerably (this would have happened without doubt at my school), however its now my opinion, that is not the job of the government to decide who will and will not be bullied and ultimately who can and can't adopt children (abusive parents not included).

This is an example of an opinion that has changed over time, given time, children can make up their own mind too. Give them the facts, let them decide.

Even when talking about homosexuality when I was young my mother never really told me it was wrong, she only told me what it was about and I made my own decision.

This is probably a good example of what should happen really, let the cild know, let them decide. From your OP it sounds like this may have been what happened there too. I certainly wouldn't condone doctrine to children, not matter which side the bias leaned too.
 
Same sex parents are perfectly capable of raising a child. It doesn't mean they should be allowed. I will be hated for my views, which are closed-minded and blunt, but it's simply un-natural. A child should be raised, if possible, by a mother and father. There are plenty of straight couples out there deserving of a child. If 2 gay guys want to raise a child it makes me think, well sorry dude but you like males. A male and another male are physically incapable of reproduction because that's the way life is. Tough. If you want to be a parent then it's unfortunate you aren't straight.

Earth, I'm straight but I think you can trust me on this. It is not a 'decision'. Some people are attracted to members of the opposite sex, some of the same, and some of both. It's more hormone levels and mind presets than how someone is raised.
 
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Earth,

The fact of the matter is - the debate is over.

Homosexuality and gay marriage is a reality; to deny it is irresponsible, and to oppress it is an inherent violation of the rights of others.

To try and hide it from children is not only futile, but a denial of the reality in which those children must inevitably become a constructive part of.
 
You seriously need to justify those sentiments before continuing this line of dialogue.

And the only way to justify them is by agreeing with your line of thought

JoeyD
Their daughter is no better or worse off then if she would have been raised in the same manner by opposite sex parents.

Is the world still this backwards that we thing same sex parents are incapable of rearing a child?

So if your were raised by two of your fathers, or two of your mothers, your upbringing would have been just as good? Theres absolutely nothing that two different sexes could bring to a child? Its like how a man and a female compliment each other. A male and a female parent compliment each other in parenting. A father may let his children play too hard or get too dirty, but a mother would counter that and limit how dirty they get or how rough they play.

If you have alot of the same you get no where. It was interesting that a championship winning crew chief had his crew fill out a graph, a graph that had traits like patience, learning ability etc. All the graphs were different and he said his crew wouldn't work if they were the same.

Oh, of course you can have two men or two women raise a child. But is it the best case scenario for children? What I mentioned above says no.

Stevisov
I couldn't disagree more, children should be encouraged to think for their own, they shouldn't however have an opinion forced upon them.

Telling young children that gay marriage is wrong, is unproductive.

Telling young children that gay marriage is better than normal marriage is also unproductive.

What would be more productive, would be to tell children that gay marriage exists, as does normal marriage, and let formulate their own opinion of both over time.

When I was highschool I used to think that it was wrong to allow gay adoption because it was my opinion that the children of the gay family would be bullied considerably (this would have happened without doubt at my school), however its now my opinion, that is not the job of the government to decide who will and will not be bullied and ultimately who can and can't adopt children (abusive parents not included).

This is an example of an opinion that has changed over time, given time, children can make up their own mind too. Give them the facts, let them decide.

So you think a child doesnt benefit more from having a male and a female raising him?

Alex.
Same sex parents are perfectly capable of raising a child. It doesn't mean they should be allowed. I will be hated for my views, which are closed-minded and blunt, but it's simply un-natural. A child should be raised, if possible, by a mother and father. There are plenty of straight couples out there deserving of a child. If 2 gay guys want to raise a child it makes me think, well sorry dude but you like males. A male and another male are physically incapable of reproduction because that's the way life is.

Earth, I'm straight but I think you can trust me on this. It is not a 'decision'.

Its not closed minded, in fact your are open minded. Who is pushing this idea of same sex marriage more then anyone? Hollywood and liberal media/politicians. Disagree and expect to be outcasted as close minded.

Notice how I disagreed with gay marriage and these people, who are suppose to be the open minded ones, haha, show their own closed mindedness by immediately dismissing me.

Just because you can do something doesnt mean its right or in the best interest of society as a whole.

You have people who want no restrictions or anything in their life. Fine, but when everything crumbles around you because of your limitless do anything lifestyle you have noone else but yourselves to blame.

EDIT: I know homosexuality may indeed be because of hormones or whatever, but because you want to do something doesnt always make it right. When a 35 year old school teacher is in love with a 13 year old student, is it right?

Earth,

The fact of the matter is - the debate is over.

Homosexuality and gay marriage is a reality; to deny it is irresponsible, and to oppress it is an inherent violation of the rights of others.

To try and hide it from children is not only futile, but a denial of the reality in which those children must inevitably become a constructive part of.

Nice, try to run the "Everyone agrees your the only one give up" routine over me

Thats sooo funny. Im not trying to hide anything from children, homosexuality and gay marriage is something they'll have to deal with and tolerate in today's anything goes world. The problem I have is people like Rosie O'Donnel trying to tell 5 year olds that there is no advantage to having a mommy AND a daddy, like some think in this thread that two males or two females could do just as good of a job which is completely false.
 
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So if your were raised by two of your fathers, or two of your mothers, your upbringing would have been just as good? Theres absolutely nothing that two different sexes could bring to a child? Its like how a man and a female compliment each other. A male and a female parent compliment each other in parenting. A father may let his children play too hard or get too dirty, but a mother would counter that and limit how dirty they get or how rough they play.

I can't really say how I would have turned out and I'm not into hypothetical. I would imagine I would have turned out just fine though since both of my parents share many of the same traits. Would I have turned out exactly the same way? Of course not, but it doesn't mean I would have turned out worse.

And I love the stereotyping. Fathers do not inherently let their kids be rough and dirty and mother do not inherently make their kids be gentle and clean.

If you have alot of the same you get no where. It was interesting that a championship winning crew chief had his crew fill out a graph, a graph that had traits like patience, learning ability etc. All the graphs were different and he said his crew wouldn't work if they were the same.

This line of argument is invalid as no two people are the same. Even in a same sex marriage with a child both parents are going to contribute different social traits (as opposed to genetic traits) to that child. The only way this could be valid is if you somehow managed to clone a person and their personality, then make those two people raise a child. The lesbian couple I know have completely different traits, one is fun-loving, unbeat and social, while the other is low-key and sort of shy. Hell, that could actually describe my parents.

And I have no idea what the racing analogy was supposed to lead.

Oh, of course you can have two men or two women raise a child. But is it the best case scenario for children? What I mentioned above says no.

Wow. Care to share some citied, scientific evidence that says same sex couples provide a worse environment for a child then opposite sex couples under the same conditions?

And what you mentioned about didn't even make sense because it's impossible to have two identical people.
 
Your running an uphill battle JoeyD

Find me one person who would rather or wouldn't mind being raised by two of the same sex

Thats your answer
 
Your running an uphill battle JoeyD

Find me one person who would rather or wouldn't mind being raised by two of the same sex

Thats your answer

Running an uphill battle? That doesn't make any sense.

You are making claims, I am asking for evidence for these claims. Please show me scientific evidence supporting your claim that same sex parents provide a worse environment then opposite sex parents do.

I would like to quote a 2005 study (which has been peer reviewed) by WebMD:

WebMD
Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Kids
Children growing up in same-sex parental households do not necessarily have differences in self-esteem, gender identity, or emotional problems from children growing up in heterosexual parent homes.

"There are a lot of children with at least one gay or lesbian parent," says Ellen C. Perrin, MD, professor of pediatrics at Tufts University School of Medicine in Boston. She revealed the findings at the American Academy of Pediatrics Conference and Exhibition.

Between 1 million and 6 million children in the U.S. are being reared by committed lesbian or gay couples, she says. Children being raised by same-sex parents were either born to a heterosexual couple, adopted, or conceived through artificial insemination.

"The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," she tells WebMD. "In some ways children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures."

You can read the rest of the study here: WebMD
 
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So you think a child doesnt benefit more from having a male and a female raising him?

Where on earth did you get that from my quote?

I don't recall commenting on which couple will make for better parents, how about you actually read what I typed and respond accordingly.

So far all you seem to be doing, is throwing out wild accusations and making silly and baseless assumptions.
 
This is not the homosexuality thread. Go defend it there

Oh sorry, I must have been thrown off by the word 'gay' in the thread title.

My comment was just as relevant as yours.



Just as I'm here, while I have no issues with single-sex couples becoming parents, it's personally not something I could do. Admittedly the fact that I loathe children anyway might be swaying my decision, but I simply couldn't put a child through the potential abuse that would (I feel) still occur towards them from even a few individuals in the majority of the country. I'm definitely not saying that anyone who faintly disagrees with the idea is going to behave in such a way, but as far as I'm concerned it's an invitation for bullying from those who don't need an excuse.

Ironically, by refraining from doing so because of how people feel I'm actually part of the problem in its self. But I still wouldn't become a parent. It's one thing putting yourself out there as a 'pioneer', but it's something else entirely putting a child through it. And it's something I'm not prepared to do.
 
how dare she take this issue to little children who are not old enough to think for their own.

Let's see - if that was a conservative commentator showing 5 year olds saying "a real marriage is a mommy and a daddy", care to bet how many people would be applauding the support of 'family values'?
 
Running an uphill battle? That doesn't make any sense.

You are making claims, I am asking for evidence for these claims. Please show me scientific evidence supporting your claim that same sex parents provide a worse environment then opposite sex parents do.

I would like to quote a 2005 study (which has been peer reviewed) by WebMD:

You can read the rest of the study here: WebMD

You can have science, hollywood, left wing media/politicians, and the latest fads guide your conscious, while I'll think for my own.

As always I'll let you have the last word.

Steveisiov
Where on earth did you get that from my quote?

I don't recall commenting on which couple will make for better parents, how about you actually read what I typed and respond accordingly.

So far all you seem to be doing, is throwing out wild accusations and making silly and baseless assumptions.

Just wish you'd answer my question.

As always I'll let you have the last word.

Jondot
Oh sorry, I must have been thrown off by the word 'gay' in the thread title.

My comment was just as relevant as yours.



Just as I'm here, while I have no issues with single-sex couples becoming parents, it's personally not something I could do. Admittedly the fact that I loathe children anyway might be swaying my decision, but I simply couldn't put a child through the potential abuse that would (I feel) still occur towards them from even a few individuals in the majority of the country. I'm definitely not saying that anyone who faintly disagrees with the idea is going to behave in such a way, but as far as I'm concerned it's an invitation for bullying from those who don't need an excuse.

Ironically, by refraining from doing so because of how people feel I'm actually part of the problem in its self. But I still wouldn't become a parent. It's one thing putting yourself out there as a 'pioneer', but it's something else entirely putting a child through it. And it's something I'm not prepared to do.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it appears that you think only a few disagree with same sex marriage? Not sure what country you are from but thats not the case in the United States.

As always I'll let you have the last word.

Let's see - if that was a conservative commentator showing 5 year olds saying "a real marriage is a mommy and a daddy", care to bet how many people would be applauding the support of 'family values'?

There shouldn't be any such messages on HBO Family, especially having 5 year olds doing the talking.

As always I'll let you have the last word
 
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