Germany (and not only them...)

[milefile]

The European country that is most voiciferously oppesed to America confronting Iraq is Germany.

This is sickening to me. If it weren't for America Germany would be still be a smouldering ruin. After whooping their asses we hung around and rebuilt the country and saved it from the Soviets. America was also intrumental in the reunification of Germany.

Yes, Russia helped defeat Germany. But we saved Germany from them for fifty years.

Yes, Great Brittain helped defeat Germany. But they never would've been able to without America; it is common knowledge that America won WWII. Believe what you like.

So now the country that we graciously saved from it's own tyrant and the Soviet tyrants seems to be turning disturbingly anti-American. I have spoken to and over-heard German guests in my country and was offended by the arrogance with which they regarded America, as if it is an inferior place full of inferior people. I wonder how deep this sentiment runs in Germany.

I don't think Germany's superiority complex is over. I think they will be one to watch closely.


I'm not trying to start a fight, just provoke a discussion. If you think I'm wrong, I don't care, because if America sucks so bad then stay out and shut up. Stay out of our Universities, stay out of our national parks and cities. Age does not define greatness, dear Europeans. Accomplishment does. What have you done for us lately?

 

[made in holland]

Originally posted by milefile



I don't think Germany's superiority complex is over. I think they will be one to watch closely.

What have you done for us lately?

After reading your post, i get a small feeling that it is not Germany that has a superiority problem, but you.

So because America has "protected" Germany after WWII and during the Cold War, they now have to agree with every plan and every idea the American government thinks of?
No matter how stupid it is or how bad it can turn out for Germany?

 

[milefile]

I knew you would be the first to reply. I just knew it.

No. I do not have a superiority complex. I am just tired of this very fashionable America hating.

Ever hear of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours"?

Ever hear of America putting it's ass on the line for other countries? Obviously Germany is not ready to be a freind.

Do you think Amercan intelligence is making up the fact that Saddam has WMD? Do you think it should just be "monitored" untill they use them?

What interest could Germany possibly have in letting Iraq go the way it is?

I don't want to see a war. I want to see Iraq disarmed, among other things. Putting an ultimatum on them and then actually following through this time will be definative. As much as I hate Bush, I do believe he is not messing around and he will blow that place to smithereens. All so they can keep weapons that might do some damage but would surely seal their measly fate? Iraq is a fly. America is a fly-swatter. Why would any Western Country want to coddle Saddam? That's what they did to Hitler and we all know how that turned out.

 

[made in holland]

Originally posted by milefile
I knew you would be the first to reply. I just knew it.

No. I do not have a superiority complex. I am just tired of this very fashionable America hating.

Ever hear of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours"?

Ever hear of America putting it's ass on the line for other countries? Obviously Germany is not ready to be a freind.

Do you think Amercan intelligence is making up the fact that Saddam has WMD? Do you think it should just be "monitored" untill they use them?

What interest could Germany possibly have in letting Iraq go the way it is?

I don't want to see a war. I want to see Iraq disarmed, among other things. Putting an ultimatum on them and then actually following through this time will be definative. As much as I hate Bush, I do believe he is not messing around and he will blow that place to smithereens. All so they can keep weapons that might do some damage but would surely seal their measly fate? Iraq is a fly. America is a fly-swatter. Why would any Western Country want to coddle Saddam? That's what they did to Hitler and we all know how that turned out.

I don't think you can compare Saddam with Hitler. Hitler said things people wanted to hear during a difficult time in their life, Saddam is just a brutal dictator, even for his own people.

I don't think there is one country in Europe or the rest of the world that has pro- Iraqi feelings. But there are alot of people who think that Bush just wants to fight a war, and don't give diplomacy a chance.
And especially because of WWII, Germany believes strongly in that diplomacy.

And as for the fashionable America hating. i think that's a part of the job. After all, you are the only superpower left in the world, after the Sovjet - Union collapsed. That won't go away. You just have to live with that.

 

[milefile]

"Deal with it"? Umm, kay. Is that some of that diplomacy you're talking about?

So Saddam is a brutal dicator. True. And Hitler told people what they wanted to hear. True. But Hitler was a brutal dictaor, too. That is one insurmountable thing they have in common and any comparison and contrast could conceiveably stop there and still be adequate.

George W. Bush has not given diplomacy much of a chance, except for right now. This is also true. But how long should they be given. This has been going on for over ten years and, by association, has recently gotten much more serious. Just because Bush said "that's it, enough is enough," doesn't mean diplomacy wasn't given a chance. It was. That chance has come and gone.

So America is the only super-power and you're not. What are we supposed to do? Maybe we could anounce that "From now on, America is no longer the super-power." It is not America's fault that the USSR failed. It is their fault.

The sad thing is that so many Americans admire Europeans, envy the old cities and history, and learn your languages even though there is no practical purpose since you all learn our language. But it doesn't make us hate you. It makes us want to know you. When I was younger I was an anti-American American. It was fashionable to sit in cafes and read Sartre and Nietzsche and criticize and say how I'm going to move to Amsterdam. But then I realized that America is a great place, too, that a lot of great people fought and died for this country to be here and take in everyone from everywhere, so much so that now we're kinda screwed because of it. And I came to realize that Europe has as many backwards dumbasses as America.

People are people wherever you go, whatever language they speak. Americans are no better and no worse than Europeans. But I still need to see that some Europeans think that way. All I hear is how much we suck for keeping them all secure for fifty years when they all could've been just another Czech Republic.

 

[milefile]

Ah ha... I see you did a little editing...

 

[Talentless]

And some of that criticism will be idiotic.

I agree with Holland on this one. I do not expect any country to aid me unless we have some kind of contract.

But, Holland, I think I should inform you that the words "give diplomacy a chance" are, in fact, nearly impossible to ever exhaust. It is a technique that cannot be fulfilled to the world's satisfaction. It is only US might that will ever advance past the diplomacy stage. Each time Saddam gives even a minor hint that he is ready to talk, extending that olive branch, someone will take that as serious, or be afraid not to. You cannot exhaust what can be perpetuated so easily.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by Talentless


But, Holland, I think I should inform you that the words "give diplomacy a chance" are, in fact, nearly impossible to ever exhaust. It is a technique that cannot be fulfilled to the world's satisfaction. It is only US might that will ever advance past the diplomacy stage. Each time Saddam gives even a minor hint that he is ready to talk, extending that olive branch, someone will take that as serious, or be afraid not to. You cannot exhaust what can be perpetuated so easily.

Nicely put.

 

[made in holland]

Well, i can only speak for Holland, but i don't have the impression that there is much America hating going on in Holland, or the rest of Europe. Maybe the french, but they are idiots

So America is the only super-power and you're not. What are we supposed to do? Maybe we could anounce that "From now on, America is no longer the super-power." It is not America's fault that the USSR failed. It is their fault.

I know that it's not America's fault that you're the only superpower left and that you can't change it. But it's a fact that you are one, and that automatically gives feelings of hate and envy. And i don't think that Europe is the place where those feelings are centered.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by made in holland
Well, i can only speak for Holland, but i don't have the impression that there is much America hating going on in Holland, or the rest of Europe. Maybe the french, but they are idiots



I know that it's not America's fault that you're the only superpower left and that you can't change it. But it's a fact that you are one, and that automatically gives feelings of hate and envy. And i don't think that Europe is the place where those feelings are centered. [/B]

I think you're probably right but I heard some Germans in America talking and it made me so mad. How rude. And I get second hand information from others to the same effect.

I am by no means an expert on Germany but I do get the feeling that what happened there once could happen again, especially when I hear the things I've heard from Germans who maybe didn't know anyone was listening.

There aren't any Germans on GTP are there? Too bad. I'd like to hear it straight from the Pferd's mouth.

 

[made in holland]

Originally posted by milefile


I think you're probably right but I heard some Germans in America talking and it made me so mad. How rude. And I get second hand information from others to the same effect.

I am by no means an expert on Germany but I do get the feeling that what happened there once could happen again, especially when I hear the things I've heard from Germans who maybe didn't know anyone was listening.

There aren't any Germans on GTP are there? Too bad. I'd like to hear it straight from the Pferd's mouth.

I'm no real Germany expert myself, but i can assure you that that will never happen again.

 

[boombexus]

[soapbox]

I'm going to follow in the footsteps of neon_duke and go on a rant about how much I dislike these threads.

I feel that discussing these topics are a strain on our community. Not solely because they are being discussed but because of the way they are discussed. It always seems that the threads turn out to be a USA versus the rest of the world. Creating a certain animosity between members here. I don't really think that this is constructive for our community and is more of a strain here than anything else.
I don't mind that the topics are discussed, just the way they are discussed.
A thread usually turns into a shouting match of who the US saved in WW II. Who cares what happened in WW II right now. And to the non US members here, why don't you discuss the topic on a level that is constructive and ask pertainant questions that maybe someone here could answer instead of just blindly pointing the finger and putting blame on the American members here which you are so quick to do.
Try to include some factual information while posting and not just posting your opinions that are based on nothing other than what your gut tells you.
To each and everyone of us here, it's gonna be hard to use facts to discuss this topic because we only have what the media has made available to us. The media certainly doesnt' know the whole story and plus they will tell us only what we think we should know. One thing that I really think we need to understand is that we (we being the general public) will NEVER have all the facts. We don't know what is actually going on and we NEVER will. The real facts are kept secret and rightfully so.

So can we just please keep these kind of threads consturctive and friendly. Don't bash one another or make remarks only to spur or agrivate other members because none of us here make our countries decisions. We are all supposed to be a community here that has gathered to discuss our favorite game and similar interests without the boundries of race or where you might be from.

Peace,

Boom
[/soapbox]

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by milefile
If it weren't for America Germany would be still be a smouldering ruin. After whooping their asses we hung around and rebuilt the country and saved it from the Soviets. America was also intrumental in the reunification of Germany.

Yes, Great Brittain helped defeat Germany. But they never would've been able to without America; it is common knowledge that America won WWII. Believe what you like.

Do you have even the slightest idea of just how that comes across to people from other countries? I find this line of argument incredibly arrogant and patronising.

Your previous actions, no matter honourable, do not exempt you from criticism, and those you have helped are not automatically required to 'fall in line' with your opinions and agendas.

 

[Talentless]

But it can be said that being upfront about how you see things is more constructive than word mincing.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by vat_man


Do you have even the slightest idea of just how that comes across to people from other countries? I find this line of argument incredibly arrogant and patronising.

Your previous actions, no matter honourable, do not exempt you from criticism, and those you have helped are not automatically required to 'fall in line' with your opinions and agendas.

Yes. I do. Arrogance is a matter of perception, not fact.

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by Talentless
But it can be said that being upfront about how you see things is more constructive than word mincing.

Well, generally true- but I fail to see how this is constructive.

I mean, carrying on this line of argument, since much of the US missle and rocket technology is based on the work of Werner Von Braun (who worked for the Nazis), shouldn't you therefore be 'grateful' to the Germans for attaining a dominant position in the space race and landing a man on the moon.

Sorry to fly off the handle, but I find this line of thought very inflaming - to follow this line of argument and then accuse others of arrogance is astounding hypocrisy.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by boombexus
[soapbox]

I'm going to follow in the footsteps of neon_duke and go on a rant about how much I dislike these threads.

I feel that discussing these topics are a strain on our community. Not solely because they are being discussed but because of the way they are discussed. It always seems that the threads turn out to be a USA versus the rest of the world. Creating a certain animosity between members here. I don't really think that this is constructive for our community and is more of a strain here than anything else.
I don't mind that the topics are discussed, just the way they are discussed.
A thread usually turns into a shouting match of who the US saved in WW II. Who cares what happened in WW II right now. And to the non US members here, why don't you discuss the topic on a level that is constructive and ask pertainant questions that maybe someone here could answer instead of just blindly pointing the finger and putting blame on the American members here which you are so quick to do.
Try to include some factual information while posting and not just posting your opinions that are based on nothing other than what your gut tells you.
To each and everyone of us here, it's gonna be hard to use facts to discuss this topic because we only have what the media has made available to us. The media certainly doesnt' know the whole story and plus they will tell us only what we think we should know. One thing that I really think we need to understand is that we (we being the general public) will NEVER have all the facts. We don't know what is actually going on and we NEVER will. The real facts are kept secret and rightfully so.

So can we just please keep these kind of threads consturctive and friendly. Don't bash one another or make remarks only to spur or agrivate other members because none of us here make our countries decisions. We are all supposed to be a community here that has gathered to discuss our favorite game and similar interests without the boundries of race or where you might be from.

Peace,

Boom
[/soapbox]

I agree with some parts of this. The discourse between Holland and I started out a little tense, and I fully expected that. What better way to get people's attention? Then a discussion can start.

I disagree about it straining the community, though. It makes me want to come back and see what the latest is opinion is. Arguing is constructive, or, can be. I don't think we should avoid certain topics just because some people have a hard time arguing without becoming hostile. Some of us thrive on lively dissent and discourse, formulating arguments, teaching and learning. At the end of the day I go to sleep wondering what I would think of America if I was Australian. The benefits are great if we can be objective enough to understand what was probably the most valuable thing I've said in this thread: "People are people wherever you go, whatever language they speak," and whatever differences they have. It is up to us to sort them out. It can get messy. But it's worth it. A certain degree of stress is necessary. No?

Americans and Europeans are so similar and like minded, more so than any of us let on, all the while retaining national pride and identity. I want to know why it's almost a crime to be a modern American patriot in the eyes of the world.

 

[Talentless]

It comes down to a very basic difference. America is not like other parts of the world. We are different because that was our intent upon declaring ourselves that on july 2nd, yes 2nd, 1776, and because we have less experience of war and do not have the proximity that others have. Though modern technology has ended the myth of being separated by to oceans, that is still quite an obstacle to pass. That immigration was not used as a means of striing us more forcefully years ago is a miracle. America does not have quite the level of liberalism many nations seem to share (liberalism in the socialistic model), and thank goodness for that.

The things which bother me are the perceptions of us as being stupid, unsophisticated, etc. Sometimes it's justified. But other times it's nothing more than a characterization rooted in prejudice. Take the "love affair" Americans have with guns. Other nations decry it, but our tendncy towards excepting it is not proof of our barbarity, it is a testament to our wisdom. We do not presume that all "safe" areas will remain constantly so. We do not expect old women in apartments to hope a police force that may not equal a tenth of a percent of the population can get there in time incase she is under attack. And we know that no matter how rare a crime may be, it isthat they can happen, and that there is nothing comprable to a gun, which is sufficient justification to own a gun. Safety is the presumption of things not going as you plan, not of things improving or remaining the same. When this is understood, the liberalism that Americans have toward guns will be also.

I also hate what seems to be a pressure to behave in accordance with the socialistic philosophiesthat some nations have. We are wrong to "spread our American views and mold others to aid our American greed" but noone has any moral problem with pretty much dictating who, what, when, where and how we should aid or fight other nations. Though it may be a misperception, to some Americans it sound like the world wants them to give aid and then shut up.

 

[Talentless]

I was not talking about claims of that sort Vat, but of criticisms of the labels we heap on each other.

It's hard not to inject some emotionalism on to such discussions. And these can be enlightening.

 

[Talentless]

As far as I understand it, the world's issue with patriotism has to do with it's anti nationalist stance (well, some nations may not be anti nationalist).

But, I theorize that liberal dissidents in nations with pasts, perhaps imperialistic ones (most likely) grew to have disdain for their government. When the US goes down that path, or seems to, it bothers them. But they do have a point. But the ironic thing is that some of the critics whom denounce patriotism/nationalism, support social aid programs, which, too, can lead to the expansion of a governments power. In a sense, they contradict themselves. Social aid programs, civil rights legislation, labor laws, however righteous one can say these things are, managing them is expensive; the laws covering them may not always be fair, and the enforcement may not even be just.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by vat_man


Well, generally true- but I fail to see how this is constructive.

I mean, carrying on this line of argument, since much of the US missle and rocket technology is based on the work of Werner Von Braun (who worked for the Nazis), shouldn't you therefore be 'grateful' to the Germans for attaining a dominant position in the space race and landing a man on the moon.

Sorry to fly off the handle, but I find this line of thought very inflaming - to follow this line of argument and then accuse others of arrogance is astounding hypocrisy.

Actaully I'd be grateful to Von Braun, who was coerced to work for the Nazis and happily came to America. He was a scientist first. And that's what I'm trying to get at here. Are you an Australian first? Or something else?

For my part... I try to be a critical thinker first. If the Germans are wrong it's not because I'm an American. It's because they're wrong. If Bush is an idiot (which he is) I'll admit it and still be a good American.

When it comes to something as dangerous as Saddam I think concensus in the western world is the most valuable thing of all. Show him an inpenetrable wall of defiance from the "lazy, immoral, devils" of the Western world and see him fold. But if we all fight amongst ourselves weakness is preceived. I think Germany, for whatever reasons (and I'd like to be enlightened some more), could be more cooperative.

I also want to add that I predict Russia and USA will become close allies, closer than now, because we know eachother so well already after fifty years of mutual obsession. I can see the reciprocity developing already.

 

[Robin2]

countries do not want to be involved with the US war with Iraq because of the obvious oil situation. nobody gives a **** about iraq, only the oil.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by   
countries do not want to be involved with the US war with Iraq because of the obvious oil situation. nobody gives a **** about iraq, only the oil.

That's like saying "the only reason people get married is to have sex. I mean, everybody has genitalia."

Your logic is stunted. Iraq has oil. But they also have Saddam and anyone who thinks it is a good idea to let him and his regime be is wrong.

So, I think you are wrong. The Kurds probably do, too. And Iran, and Kuwait and Isreal and England....

 

[Robin2]

why should any other countries sacrifice their troops so bush has more control over the world?

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by   
why should any other countries sacrifice their troops so bush has more control over the world?

Sure for two years (unless he gets re-elected ). I don't like bush but I hate Saddam. Do you think it's better to just let him be? Don't you realize how dangerous and malignant and maelevolent he is?

And besides, Bush said we'll do it ourselves if nobody will help. But you'll help. You know it.

 

[duo17]

May I ask you something Milefile? Where do you get your info about these topics?

OA

 

[milefile]

MacNiel Leher News Hour and NPR. That is if you're asking about Iraq and current stuff.

 

[duo17]

There is the problem. You cannot base your information on a baised source, which in this case is basically any American news channel or program. For instance, if you were to go to Iraq and watch the news there, it would probably all be anti-american and it would show all of the bad things the U.S. has done. No matter how much you think that the news you watch isn't biased, it always will be depending on where you are. To actually get true facts that can be used effectivley in an arguement like this, you must see from the point of view of people from the outside of this conflict, because they are least likely to be picking sides right now.

OA

 

[Talentless]

Trying to base contentions on being fully objective is about impossible and an exercise in self entrapment, preventing possibly necessary discourse. The nature of truth itself is a classical philosophical debate. Sometimes you must act on faith and speculate, otherwise you censor yourself.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by duo17
There is the problem. You cannot base your information on a baised source, which in this case is basically any American news channel or program. For instance, if you were to go to Iraq and watch the news there, it would probably all be anti-american and it would show all of the bad things the U.S. has done. No matter how much you think that the news you watch isn't biased, it always will be depending on where you are. To actually get true facts that can be used effectivley in an arguement like this, you must see from the point of view of people from the outside of this conflict, because they are least likely to be picking sides right now.

OA

I half-heartedly buy that. I like to think non-commercial news is a little more honest and comprehensive.

But then who is "outside of this conflict?" The only place I know of that I haven't heard much from is South America.

But back to the news. Last night a British reporter in Baghdad was reporting on the weapons inspectors. He talked for a good seven or eight minutes giving details you'd never hear on NBC or any other network news. He talked about how the inspections are basically a farce and the Iraqis know the inspector's every move and wherever they go the Iraqis are prepared. Of course he didn't use the word "farce" but his description sounded like one to me.

One of the great things about a free society is a free press. I agree it is good to be wary of "the news," but I also think inteligent people know when they are being lied to or not. We can't just say "well it's all biased B.S. so nobody knows and I don't know and I never will." That sounds like the first step toward apathy to me.