Germany (and not only them...)

[milefile]

Originally posted by duo17
Is that true? Was ancient China a democracy? Was ancient Rome a Democracy? Civilization did advance more during democracy but only in certain aspects. Ancient China advanced much more in every respect than Athens did during its time. And while we're on the subject, you can't count Greece as a democracy because all of it wasn't it wasn't. Also you said that democracy was most powerful each time, that's far from the truth.

The whole point of democracy is to let people choose and to be fair. Forcing democracy on another group is the opposite of democracy. The people of Afganistan will choose it if they want it. That's why I was saying that its ironic that we want everyone to be democratic, even if they don't want to.


OA

PS: If any of the things I type come off harsh, I'm sorry. A lot of times things I say come off as an insult, but I really don't mean it that way, so don't take it to heart.

You have identified one of the philosophical problems with democracy and you are right. I guess people can choose not to choose (he he - Rush, Free Will ). It happens right here in America. David Koresh. Ruby Ridge. Great perceived blasphemies against democracy... or not. Or the deal in Texas where the gay male couple gets hauled to jail for doin' it because sodomy is illegal. That doesn't sound like a free country to me. America is riddled with contradiction. It takes the strongest wills to sort through it and still believe in it.

Maybe the best thing about democracy that every nation should benefit from is that it tends to prevent totalitarianism and corruption (there will always be some corruption).

In terms of the third stage of democracy, I didn't consider China. I was talking about Greece, Rome, and America... sticking to Western Civilization.

Don't worry. I'm not taking anything personally.

I also want to add that I agree about humanity advancing only in certain aspects during democratic ages. I am saddened by the conspicuous lack of spiritual (mystical, sacred, philosophical) cohesion in democracy. I think of ancient Egypt and envy their cohesive culture of the sacred. But I deplore other things about it. But that is surmountable, in time. Our world's old, worn-out religions are about due to check out. The violence they make is evidence of their desperation. And not only Islam.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by   


you beat me to it .

for me, that was one of the biggest dissapointments of WW2. until pearl harbour, americans didnt give a toss about the war and as soon as they were hurt, they decided it was time for revenge. bit like september 11....

And this is a problem why?

 

[Robin2]

until america is effected in some way by something they will not help out anyone. take a look at september 11th. you guys were attacked, all of a sudden the american government cared about terrorism and revenge was the number one aim. not only did the government want to destroy bin laden and the rest, he wanted everyone else to do it for him.

i can tell you that if something on that scale happened to australia and we went to bomb the absolute crap out of whoever did it, the US government wouldnt spare any troops to help us.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by   
until america is effected in some way by something they will not help out anyone. take a look at september 11th. you guys were attacked, all of a sudden the american government cared about terrorism and revenge was the number one aim. not only did the government want to destroy bin laden and the rest, he wanted everyone else to do it for him.

i can tell you that if something on that scale happened to australia and we went to bomb the absolute crap out of whoever did it, the US government wouldnt spare any troops to help us.

I can tell you that you are flat out wrong. That's just bull**** (not trying to inflame but I can't think of a more fitting term). America helps everybody out, all the time. A little too much maybe.

And just like Europeans don't want to help us now, we didn't want to help in WWII until we had to. War is a tall order, a big commitment, especially way back then.

Also, terrorism is not the same kind of war. Furthermore, Bin Laden has said that it is not only America he's after. It's Western Civilization in general. That includes Australia, geography aside.

So now that Bali and Kenya have happened, does anyone take it more seriously?

And finaly, Bush has said we'll go it alone if need be. That pissed everybody off more than asking for help! America has never coerced anybody into a war. Be we sure have been coerced into war.

 

[duo17]

Originally posted by milefile


I also want to add that I agree about humanity advancing only in certain aspects during democratic ages. I am saddened by the conspicuous lack of spiritual (mystical, sacred, philosophical) cohesion in democracy. I think of ancient Egypt and envy their cohesive culture of the sacred. But I deplore other things about it. But that is surmountable, in time. Our world's old, worn-out religions are about due to check out. The violence they make is evidence of their desperation. And not only Islam.

I wouldn't single out Islam. Muslims as a whole, don't create violence from desparation, its just those select individuals that need attention. I would know, I'm Islamic . The world's three major religions are about due actually, but maybe they'll last longer than expected

OA

 

[Robin2]

Originally posted by milefile


I can tell you that you are flat out wrong. That's just bull**** (not trying to inflame but I can't think of a more fitting term). America helps everybody out, all the time. A little too much maybe.

And just like Europeans don't want to help us now, we didn't want to help in WWII until we had to. War is a tall order, a big commitment, especially way back then.

Also, terrorism is not the same kind of war. Furthermore, Bin Laden has said that it is not only America he's after. It's Western Civilization in general. That includes Australia, geography aside.

So now that Bali and Kenya have happened, does anyone take it more seriously?

And finaly, Bush has said we'll go it alone if need be. That pissed everybody off more than asking for help! America has never coerced anybody into a war. Be we sure have been coerced into war.

"youre with us or youre with the terrorists"

if thats not coersion, i dont know what is.

did america help the east timorees?

 

[Robin2]

Originally posted by duo17


I wouldn't single out Islam. Muslims as a whole, don't create violence from desparation, its just those select individuals that need attention. I would know, I'm Islamic . The world's three major religions are about due actually, but maybe they'll last longer than expected

OA

thats the biggest problem in the world today - religion.

all wars and terrorist acts have come about because of religion. damn church goers

 

[duo17]

But religion has given people hope through tough times, it kept them going.

OA

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by   


"youre with us or youre with the terrorists"

if thats not coersion, i dont know what is.

Well I guess we have to be careful with the word "war". And I took that statement to be directed at countries that may give us (by "us" I include Australians, if that's okay with you) the runaround. I wouldn't have expected it from Germany. But Iraq, Sudan, Taliban Afganistan, etc...

I was talking about troops going abroad.

did america help the east timorees?

Not with troops. Did Australia? Of course we cant be there to save the day for every conflict there is. I think it is totally appropriate for a country to weigh the pros and cons and do what is in it's best interest.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by duo17


I wouldn't single out Islam. Muslims as a whole, don't create violence from desparation, its just those select individuals that need attention. I would know, I'm Islamic . The world's three major religions are about due actually, but maybe they'll last longer than expected

OA

I didn't mean to single out Islam. Just using what's current and fresh in our minds.

Well guys, I gotta go for today. I hope this thread stays as stimulating as it has been. Meet you back here tomorrow...

 

[Robin2]

east timor is still hostile. i caught the tail end of something about violence on the news the other day. we have had troops there for years now.

bah, i just dont want to see any countries get suckered into supplying troops for an oil war. our government is a joke. im sure we will send troops to their death.

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by milefile


Maybe this will help:

"German sclerosis is one reason why the collective European economy is growing at 1 percent as this year comes to a close, while the U.S.--despite the blows it has absorbed over the last two years--is close to 3 percent. (If you think America's recent bear market in stocks has been ugly, check out Europe's. At the time when our Dow Jones Industrial Average was down 23 percent, indexes for the French, Dutch, and German stock markets were down 32 to 43 percent.)" (go to http://www.taemag.com/taedec02a.htm for the whole article)

I couldn't let this go - I did some research on stock market performance (although I've come to the conclusion that the stock market's not actually a reliable economic indicator) and found this:

By any standard, the results have been calamitous. European insurance stocks have fallen by 58% this year — even worse than the 50% drop in European telecommunications stocks — compared with an overall market decline of about 35%. Many analysts say the equity sell-off by insurers is a key reason why European markets have performed worse than the U.S. stock market, which is down about 27% so far this year. American insurance companies are big equity investors, too, but have been careful not to let their holdings rise above about 25% of their total investments, compared with a 2000 average of 37% for the Europeans. Their stock sales also don't punch as hard, since insurers hold just under 7% of the total U.S. stock market, according to Federal Reserve statistics.

I think part of the 'lethargic' European performance is down to the EU's reluctance to move on interest rates.

 

[viperguy]

Originally posted by milefile


...I have spoken to and over-heard German guests in my country and was offended by the arrogance with which they regarded America, as if it is an inferior place full of inferior people. I wonder how deep this sentiment runs in Germany.

Ditto.

 

[askia47]

Germans are bastards!

 

[viperguy]

also: as much as I dislike the Germans, i'm mostly from german heritage.

 

[askia47]

really? nice7 from the GT2 forums is a german i wonder how he will react...

 

[keeno_uk]

plenty of points have been raised in this thread and I have read all of it with much intruigue so I will just say what I have to say on the situation. I think its quite cowincidental that straight after bush's attack on Afghanistan and he was unsuccessful and finding Osama BinLaden he goes straight after Saddam for no particular reason.

Oh the other day I watched this documentary about muslim and christians living in Nigeria and the narrater said during Americas bombing of Afghanistan a lot of the muslims attacked and rioted over the christian areas of Nigeria a lot of people was killed and a lot of churchs were destroyed. Shows you there is much hatred in the world when it comes down to religion.

One more thing about president Bush is he afraid of over countries getting their own nuclear weapons and if they combined will be a far superior super power then the US thats how I see it. I think he is also afraid of the EU aswell because we are all leaving nato

 

[keeno_uk]

oh and germans are alright people when I went over their they seem safe (alright)

 

[DGB454]

Originally posted by __
thats the biggest problem in the world today - religion.

all wars and terrorist acts have come about because of religion. damn church goers

Unbelievable. Hmmm..I wonder how many people you offended?

 

[DGB454]

Originally posted by askia47
Germans are bastards!

Damn....What's the matter with you guys? I'm sure there are (or were)People of German decent on this board.

 

[bigwhlkid]

i believe the reason lies in that they are affiliated with us because our army bases are there and they feel if IRAQ attacks back on the US they may want to go after there army bases which are located within Germany.