Germany (and not only them...)

[duo17]

Originally posted by milefile

One of the great things about a free society is a free press.

HaHa! Did you say free press? We say we use that but the concept of free press in the U.S. is BS. Everyone knows that if you don't say something nuetral or patriotic, then you're gonna take some heat for it. Someone in a county about 40 miles away wrote about what the U.S. has done to other countries, and guess what, the FBI was all over him. He made a few headlines. The truth is, you can't have totally "free press" or speech for that matter. No matter where you are, because of the government, there is no free press because they aren't gonna like it and it causes problems. The only difference is that we are a little more leanent about it than other countries.

Originally posted by milefile

"well it's all biased B.S. so nobody knows and I don't know and I never will." That sounds like the first step toward apathy to me.

That isn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that you need to atleast look at the other side of the conflict first before you can make an educated statement against the other.


OA

 

[Talentless]

Hard to find sense in believing the word of state run media, but maybe they tell the truth.

I don't know the details of what the FBI did, but there is such a thing as slander, how or if that applies, I do not know.

Oh, and as for the media suffering here if it does not act "patriotic," tough. Most media is a business and not largely supported by the government. The market determines the content. I think most media moguls know that, or should.

 

[Der Alta]

This is an absolutely pertinent topic, and will weigh in on it shortly...Must do real work for the moment.

Milefile has a few very interesting stances, and is willing to debate them as best as possible. For some reasons I will support him, and for others I won't. Please be patient while I prepare my stance.

Boom: While this may have started out with a "street fight" attitude, it has started to evolve into a very good thread. Talentless gets a note worthy handshake.

I'd like to recommend this article that I read before jumping in here.

http://www.taemag.com/taedec02a.htm

Please take 3 minutes and give it a read.

More coming soon.

AO

 

[Talentless]

http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan.html

 

[Talentless]

I destest simplistic American answers, like simply referring to any criticism as jealousy and not making any more contentions, but I must say that I am so very proud that we are not as leftwing (in the American sense) as Europe. Thank goodness.

 

[Talentless]

The UN? Depending on where you are its either a US policy pushing body, or an anti-American body. But there is a natural distrust of the body. And a distrust would exist no matter its actions, because that natural distrust if of centralization. A collection of people, some for, others against, some despots, who gather to vote on the direction member states should take, is not encouraging.

We also know that votes could be affected by how near to each other member states our. As much as some nations may think we're big bullies, I doubt most of them believe we will come in and crush them on a whim. We do not border the states in Europe, Asia and Africa, and so on, so the members will likely support that which appeases those nations near them, not the nation across an ocean; a nation whose capitalist economy and military might they need to cover them if their social programs become too large, and if they face a threat to their security.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by Der Alta
This is an absolutely pertinent topic, and will weigh in on it shortly...Must do real work for the moment.

Milefile has a few very interesting stances, and is willing to debate them as best as possible. For some reasons I will support him, and for others I won't. Please be patient while I prepare my stance.

Boom: While this may have started out with a "street fight" attitude, it has started to evolve into a very good thread. Talentless gets a note worthy handshake.

I'd like to recommend this article that I read before jumping in here.

http://www.taemag.com/taedec02a.htm

Please take 3 minutes and give it a read.

More coming soon.

AO

Three minutes, huh? Well worth the time. I wish I wasn't at work so I could compose a response as thoughtful and thorough as the article. Like Der Alta, I'll have to get back to this later after I get some work done.

But everybody participating in this thread should read this article. It essentially summarizes why I started this thread in the first place.

 

[Talentless]

I read it.

 

[Der Alta]

I spent considerably more than three minutes reading the one that Talentless posted. It too speaks of a distrust of an omnipotent power.

Why did Arnold Schwarzenneger flex his muscles? Because he could. Why does American showcase it's airforce? Because it can. Is that right? Not by a long shot.

Let's look at Afghanistan. The Taliban came to power in a coup. Not my democracy or by negotiations, but by a display of power. When attacked by an individual habored and protected by this country, the US responded with negotiations of sorts. An ultimatum. The Taliban called this bluff, and realized it was not a bluff. They paid the price.

What has happened to Afghanistan since the Taliban was toppled? I think if you ask 95% of the citizens of that country, not much has changed in their day to day life. This is what disappoints me the most. The US government won't follow through. Or is it that the Afghan people won't pick up their end of the bargain? Why hasn't that Country become the shining beacon that Democracy could make it?

I ask these questions because the same issue is going to develop in Iraq. We wipe out Saddam, and plop a new figure head in his place. He is handed the reins to run the country and 5 years from now nothing has changed.

As an aside to this, I have family and friends living in Germany that I talk to on a weekly basis. The elders of the family bear ill will towards the US because of the damage doen to them by us. They do appreciate what the country has become, and are thankful for it. The family and friends (my age and younger) bear ill will toward the US for the same reason that the students on the play ground bear it towards a teacher. When push comes to shove, who gets to lay the smackdown? Not the students as a group, but the teacher. Who doesn't know the whole story.

I do think that the European Union would be an excellent idea. I wonder how long the internal bickering would take to calm down. Will it ever happen? or will it fracture because people are better taught in German schools than in Czech schools? Europe has a bit more work to do on it's front porch than it does in the neighborhood, before it can criticize the neighbors.

Is Europe Jealous of the prosperity it sees the US gaining, while suffering it's own losses?

I've got friends in the Ukraine who would have moved here in an instant if they could. Schooled in Germany, France and Spain. Yet they'd rather move over here. Why?

I'm quite happy living here in the US. Did I enjoy my visits to Europe? Most certainly. I wish I could spend considerably more time over there. I'll give a note that drivers in Germany are in a class above US drivers. And for that I'm really jealous.

AO

 

[milefile]

Why hasn't that Country become the shining beacon that Democracy could make it?

Because they are essentially medieval people. Democracy will take years to grow there. So they are no shining beacon but I’ll bet 95% of Afgans are grateful to be able to listen to music, use cameras, shave their faces, or remove their burkas again.

We wipe out Saddam, and plop a new figure head in his place. He is handed the reins to run the country and 5 years from now nothing has changed.

Again, they may be no America but at least they will not be a danger to Western Civilization. That would be a change.

I think for we humans to comprehend things in an historical sense is very hard, but absolutely essential to any hope for peace, which has never really been. The grand movements and developments in history within nations and among them happen over very long periods of time. It may be relatively simple for us to comprehend something like "the fall of Rome" because it has been documented for almost 2000 years." It is much more tricky to understand the same mechanisms in our contemporary world, especially when all "present tenses" regard themselves far above history, even outside it. Technology makes our time particularly vulnerable to this.

I'm sure the average Roman citizen, if told their entire civilization would crumble over the next couple hundred years and throw their world into a "dark age" for a millenium, would've scoffed. Why wouldn't we?

P.S. I can't get to Talentless' link.

 

[milefile]

A few excerpts from Der Alta's article...

"Thank God we had the 11th of September," he declared--for this showed the U.S. how it feels to be humbled.

That is simply sick. Thanking “God” for 3000 murders?

Herr professor-colonel went on to suggest that Americans often feel nostalgic for the "good old days of slavery in the nineteenth century." He told ludicrous stories about seeing empty bottles and litter piled "one meter deep" along roadsides in America…

Propaganda anyone? I don’t know what American he talked to but that’s absurd. And garbage one meter deep? False. As a matter of fact, our roads are quite clean on the whole.

a British professor pronounced doom on yet another of our industries, insisting gravely that America is going to be wholly uncompetitive in the biological sciences because "hardly any U.S. college students accept the reality of evolution," and science teaching in the U.S. "blinds students with dogmatism."

Huh? Not at my university. We may have religious kooks but they're just that, kooks. That would be like saying all Germans are Nazis because there are still a few Nazis in Germany.

Much of this would have made me laugh out loud, except that the vehemence and envy and certitude with which it was pronounced gave the proceedings an extremely ugly texture. Plus, these were European movers and shakers, not a bunch of pastry chefs. So it wasn't ignorance I was hearing. It was animus, jealousy, and willful spite .

Truly chilling.

German elections this fall turned to high-stakes Yankee-bashing. Riding this anti-American hobby-horse with all his might, Schröder shot forward in German popularity. In the end, despite being highly unpopular for his economic failures, Schröder scrambled back into Germany's top office--by planting his feet firmly on Uncle Sam's face.

Yes. And that’s why I’m offended. How is he any better than Bush?

Schröder's fervor was such that he announced Germany would resist any plan to disarm Iraq even if the U.N. fully sanctioned the effort.

Reine politische Stierscheiße an jeder Unkosten.

The European press labeled our President a "murderer" for allowing the execution of Timothy McVeigh.

Would a someone suggest a more appropriate fate for such an evil creature?

When New York City Democrat Ed Koch appeared on a BBC television program at the one-year anniversary of the Twin Towers attacks, he was called a simple-minded buffoon for defending the U.S. Here is a representative response from the BBC Web site: "The fact is that one of the reasons why the U.S. got bombed on September 11th was as a result of the U.S.'s heavy-handed and misguided approach in its foreign policy--which has created a lot of anger worldwide." The Londoner who wrote that has much company across her continent: In a study by the Pew Research Center two months after the attacks, fully 66 percent of a group of European elites stated that Europeans believe it is "good for the U.S. to feel vulnerable."

Weak. Very weak and vindictive.

It isn't just differing policies that are splitting the E.U. from the U.S. It is also sheer competition. The very idea of forming a united states of Europe comes in large measure from a desire to keep up with America. Today, "much of the psychological drive for Euro-nationalism is provided by anti-Americanism,"

Speaks for itself.


Now who is arrogant? Socialism is bad for the human spirit. It engenders complacency and laziness, stagnates progress, and paralyzes nations with a hideous fear of action . It is patronizing to it's people, claiming to liberate them while limiting them in a patronizing way. There are Americans who feel this way, too. I used to.

Totalitarianism is base.
West European Socialism is the fearful reaction.
Democracy and individualism are the solution.

Does that mean America is the solution? We won't live long enough to know for sure but my money's on it.

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by Der Alta
Is Europe Jealous of the prosperity it sees the US gaining, while suffering it's own losses?

I'd have thought the 2000 tech crash, recent corporate scandals and the equalisation of the Euro with the US dollar have shown that the so-called US productivity advantage was in fact an illusion.

My big concern over the Iraq thing is if Saddam's been in breach of UN sanctions for five years, why has the US made such a huge issue of this now?

Why is it being linked in to the war on terror when it's clear the big issues in that war, as recent events have shown, are in Africa and South East Asia, and indeed there has been no link shown between Iraq and recent terror events?

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by vat_man


I'd have thought the 2000 tech crash, recent corporate scandals and the equalisation of the Euro with the US dollar have shown that the so-called US productivity advantage was in fact an illusion.

Maybe this will help:

"German sclerosis is one reason why the collective European economy is growing at 1 percent as this year comes to a close, while the U.S.--despite the blows it has absorbed over the last two years--is close to 3 percent. (If you think America's recent bear market in stocks has been ugly, check out Europe's. At the time when our Dow Jones Industrial Average was down 23 percent, indexes for the French, Dutch, and German stock markets were down 32 to 43 percent.)" (go to http://www.taemag.com/taedec02a.htm for the whole article)

 

[duo17]

Originally posted by milefile


Because they are essentially medieval people. Democracy will take years to grow there. So they are no shining beacon but I’ll bet 95% of Afgans are grateful to be able to listen to music, use cameras, shave their faces, or remove their burkas again.

You can't lable a group of people as "medieval" simply because they withhold many traditions. Der Alta asked why Afganistan hasn't become a "shining becon." It's not because we didn't follow through, or they didn't hold up their end, it's because they don't want to change. I've been to Pakistan and Banladesh, and people in Bangladesh are free to not have to wear turbans and to be able to use and do anything they want. But, the fact is they don't. They don't because they like their way of life or they are afraid of change. Let me ask you, why do you still follow certain religious traditions, like lent and fasting for Ramadan or being Kosher all of the time? Nobody really knows what happened or why they do those things, but they do and believe in those things anyways.

Here is an example:
Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water.

After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it.

Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked.

Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.

After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know that's the way it's always been done around here.

So, back to the point, the people of Afganistan don't change because that's how things have been done there for years.
I also find that America forcing Democracy on other countries is rather ironic.

OA

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by vat_man


I'd have thought the 2000 tech crash, recent corporate scandals and the equalisation of the Euro with the US dollar have shown that the so-called US productivity advantage was in fact an illusion.

Also this:

"What's behind this? For one thing, Americans work harder: 72 percent of the U.S. population is at work, compared to only 58 percent in the E.U. American workers also put in more hours. And U.S. workers are more productive--an E.U. worker currently produces 73 cents worth of output in the same period of time a U.S. worker creates a dollar's worth."

and this...

"Another telling indicator of economic stagnation in Europe is the fact that many or most immigrants to that continent end up on welfare. In the U.S., almost all immigrants grab entry-level jobs, frequently more than one, and work their way up the economic ladder. The easy availability of work--indeed, our economy's insatiable hunger for additional laborers--is the main force that attracts immigrants to the U.S. in the first place."

You know? I'm begining to understand anti-American feelings better now.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by duo17


You can't lable a group of people as "medieval" simply because they withhold many traditions. Der Alta asked why Afganistan hasn't become a "shining becon." It's not because we didn't follow through, or they didn't hold up their end, it's because they don't want to change. I've been to Pakistan and Banladesh, and people in Bangladesh are free to not have to wear turbans and to be able to use and do anything they want. But, the fact is they don't. They don't because they like their way of life or they are afraid of change. Let me ask you, why do you still follow certain religious traditions, like lent and fasting for Ramadan or being Kosher all of the time? Nobody really knows what happened or why they do those things, but they do and believe in those things anyways.

Here is an example:
Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water.

After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, when another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it.

Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked.

Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.

After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know that's the way it's always been done around here.

So, back to the point, the people of Afganistan don't change because that's how things have been done there for years.
I also find that America forcing Democracy on other countries is rather ironic.

OA

Okay. You just proved my point. Medieval. These people don't comprehend feedom so it's a non issue. Many of them live in rural areas and have very little connection with cities, technology, etc. They do things the way they do just because they always have. Fine. But that is not the ideal situation for human beings to live in. Human progress happened so that people can have a chance at living long, being healthy, and pursuing things other than subsistence. So these people are medieval, or at least analogous to where Europe was at during it's Dark Age. It was a Rennisiance to overcome it, and from that came an Enlightenment. Is it wrong to want this for others?

Also, people are only similar to monkeys. Eventually a human will ask why we can't go for the banana. Then figure out a way to get the banana. Your analogy doesn't really work for a species that went to the moon, built the Golden Gate Bridge, Hoover Dam, flys in planes etc.

 

[duo17]

Doesn't work!? No one said that humans would get punished for going to the moon, and that's why humans were able to do it. Building bridges and dams are for human need, not want. Human accomplishments have nothing to do with what I was talking about. I was trying to prove why people stay the way they are even though they can benifit themselves by changing their ways.


OA

 

[slip2rock]

Ummm.... i've read though this thread twice now and i'm still trying to get to grips with the central issues....

I really want to comment on some of the posts here but i really don't know where to start.

But in short to my knowledge none of my mates (real life ones) have any issue with any particular nationality. I mean we joke about the French, take the mick out of the Irish / Scots / Welsh and yep we do take the piss out of the Yanks and the Germans. But it's all fairly innocent I certainly would be horrified if anyone took real offence. I do find the Americans a little overly sensitive to critism. You might want to take a look at the French for some lessons in dealing with that sort of thing.

Honestly guys you do make a bit of a target out of yourselves, milefile I think as a member of the British public i do find statements like "The USA won WWII" a bit hurtful, it's belittling to the efforts of the other Allied Nations. I would remind you that we'd been fighting since '39 in the defence of our neighbours whereas you guys had to have a damn good kick in the bollocks before stepping up to the wicket and doing the right thing. If you take a good look at the statistics relating to the war i think you'll find the Russians put in a far greater effort in knocking down the Nazi's than America. And pound for pound we paid a massive price, that last war was the final straw for the British Empire....... But it was worth it and I imagine we'd be prepared to pay it again. We knew we were going to get our arses kicked and we still got tooled up and went for it and even when we were totally knackered after the war we still helped the Germans sort themselves out.

 

[duo17]

Originally posted by milefile


Okay. You just proved my point. Medieval. These people don't comprehend feedom so it's a non issue. Many of them live in rural areas and have very little connection with cities, technology, etc. They do things the way they do just because they always have. Fine. But that is not the ideal situation for human beings to live in. Human progress happened so that people can have a chance at living long, being healthy, and pursuing things other than subsistence. So these people are medieval, or at least analogous to where Europe was at during it's Dark Age. It was a Rennisiance to overcome it, and from that came an Enlightenment. Is it wrong to want this for others?

How do you know that Democracy won't crumble at the feet of another system of government? You can't say that you know what is better for the human race because, well, you don't. Just, like you said, you can easily look back at Rome and see mistakes they made along the way, and you can see the room they had for improvement. You could easily say what system of government would be better for them. But, you cannot say that Democracy is best for people, just because its the best now. How do you know that socialism and communism won't turn out to be better for the human race after a few changes were made?

OA

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by slip2rock
milefile I think as a member of the British public i do find statements like "The USA won WWII" a bit hurtful, it's belittling to the efforts of the other Allied Nations. I would remind you that we'd been fighting since '39 in the defence of our neighbours whereas you guys had to have a damn good kick in the bollocks before stepping up to the wicket and doing the right thing. If you take a good look at the statistics relating to the war i think you'll find the Russians put in a far greater effort in knocking down the Nazi's than America. And pound for pound we paid a massive price, that last war was the final straw for the British Empire....... But it was worth it and I imagine we'd be prepared to pay it again. We knew we were going to get our arses kicked and we still got tooled up and went for it and even when we were totally knackered after the war we still helped the Germans sort themselves out.

I often acknowledge how special the relationship between Great Britain and America is. I mean, we had to fight a war with you guys to have this country to ourselves and now you are our greatest ally. There is also the shared language which is probably more important that we realize.

If America had not entered the war Hitler would've taken All of Europe (maybe not Russia (the irony in America's relationship to Russia, it's most powerful ally in WWII, is also not lost on me)). Even then he probably still couldn't have taken America.

I love listening to Churchill speeches. I consider him one of the Great Leader in all of History. To be able to mobilize his countrymen to "never surender"... I get goosebumps when I think about that line speech. And then I think of the film I've seen of kids playing in ruins and rubble after London was bombed to the stone age. I can't even imagine what that would be like. And I have the highest respect and admiration for those who remember and live where it happened.

So, again, I do not perceive similar sentiments from Europeans to Americans. We are dismissed as buffoons. The world's problems are blamed on us. We are evil. We are stupid.

And yet so many people want to live here. So many people want to come to our universities, own our products, eat our food.

That is what is hypocritical to me.

So America is a young country and has not had blood flow through it's streets in a war with an invading force. Would it make you all happier if we did? Would that be good? Thousands or millions dead to teach the cocky Americans a lesson? That's absurd. Like "thanking God for 9/11."

At the end of the day, the existence of America has made the world better, especially Europe.

Any one who takes that as a dismissive insult or arrogance is more hypersensitive than we alegedly are.

 

[duo17]

So wait, you are saying that just because the other countries look down on the US, that people from that country cannot come here to live a better life? I make fun of Race Idiot by stereo-typing british people, but that doesn't mean that I mean it. You are taking things too literally.

The truth is that our leaders represent us. And to call our leaders buffoons and stupid, wouldn't be that bad considering some of the choises that we have made. You are right in saying that the existance of America has made the world better, but if it wasn't for the Europeans, we wouldn't be here (in America). You just can't say that America is not welcome to any critisism just because we helped to make the world a better place.

OA

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by duo17


How do you know that Democracy won't crumble at the feet of another system of government? You can't say that you know what is better for the human race because, well, you don't. Just, like you said, you can easily look back at Rome and see mistakes they made along the way, and you can see the room they had for improvement. You could easily say what system of government would be better for them. But, you cannot say that Democracy is best for people, just because its the best now. How do you know that socialism and communism won't turn out to be better for the human race after a few changes were made?

OA

I guess I don't. But Afgans didn't want Communism either. A nine year blood bath proved that.

In the future of humanity democracy may not be the best system. But it is the best one so far and I don't hear any better ideas.

Communism as it has existed so far doesn't work becuase there are no checks and balances, corruption grows rampant.

Socialism as it has existed so far doesn't work because is breeds complacency and stagnation.

But I know this much, this is the third time around for democracy on earth and each time it has governed the strongest, most powerfull nations. And each time civilization has advanced more than any other time.

 

[made in holland]

Originally posted by milefile


So, again, I do not perceive similar sentiments from Europeans to Americans. We are dismissed as buffoons. The world's problems are blamed on us. We are evil. We are stupid.

And yet so many people want to live here. So many people want to come to our universities, own our products, eat our food.

That is what is hypocritical to me.

So America is a young country and has not had blood flow through it's streets in a war with an invading force. Would it make you all happier if we did? Would that be good? Thousands or millions dead to teach the cocky Americans a lesson? That's absurd. Like "thanking God for 9/11."

At the end of the day, the existence of America has made the world better, especially Europe.

Any one who takes that as a dismissive insult or arrogance is more hypersensitive than we alegedly are.

I think it's a two-way problem. A large majority of the Europeans don't have the slightest problem with America. But there will always be a small minority of people with Anti-American feelings. You can't please everyone.

But i've been talking to some old friends of me, who recently came back from a exchange programm with an American school. And they all told me that some of the Americans they've spoken with, have Anti-European feelings. Again, it's unavoidable.

But when i read your posts ( and especially the last one ), it looks as if all European citizens, every single one of them, has a deep hate for America, and that America is a small paradise on earth, where we all want to live.

I think you are judging the European opinions a bit wrongly.

 

[duo17]

Is that true? Was ancient China a democracy? Was ancient Rome a Democracy? Civilization did advance more during democracy but only in certain aspects. Ancient China advanced much more in every respect than Athens did during its time. And while we're on the subject, you can't count Greece as a democracy because all of it wasn't it wasn't. Also you said that democracy was most powerful each time, that's far from the truth.

The whole point of democracy is to let people choose and to be fair. Forcing democracy on another group is the opposite of democracy. The people of Afganistan will choose it if they want it. That's why I was saying that its ironic that we want everyone to be democratic, even if they don't want to.


OA

PS: If any of the things I type come off harsh, I'm sorry. A lot of times things I say come off as an insult, but I really don't mean it that way, so don't take it to heart.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by duo17
Doesn't work!? No one said that humans would get punished for going to the moon, and that's why humans were able to do it. Building bridges and dams are for human need, not want. Human accomplishments have nothing to do with what I was talking about. I was trying to prove why people stay the way they are even though they can benifit themselves by changing their ways.


OA

Food is a need. Exploration is a need. Progress and development are needs. We can't turn back time. We are the technological animal and that fact will only encompass more and more of globe until everybody is. It is inevitable.

 

[duo17]

Originally posted by milefile


Food is a need. Exploration is a need. Progress and development are needs. We can't turn back time. We are the technological animal and that fact will only encompass more and more of globe until everybody is. It is inevitable.

You got a point there, but isn't everyone already a "technilogical animal" already? Some are just more advanced than others and its always gonna end up that way.

OA

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by duo17
So wait, you are saying that just because the other countries look down on the US, that people from that country cannot come here to live a better life? I make fun of Race Idiot by stereo-typing british people, but that doesn't mean that I mean it. You are taking things too literally.

The truth is that our leaders represent us. And to call our leaders buffoons and stupid, wouldn't be that bad considering some of the choises that we have made. You are right in saying that the existance of America has made the world better, but if it wasn't for the Europeans, we wouldn't be here (in America). You just can't say that America is not welcome to any critisism just because we helped to make the world a better place.

OA

No I'm not saying that. But I am saying that guests should be respectul of their hosts.

My wife's best friend's husband is from Sweden. He came here to go to school. He got his degree and sudenly he is anti-American. It's infuriating to listen to him mindlessly criticize this country. He is full of conspiracies about how America is responsible for the stagnation of Sweden. Ha! Swedes are responsible for the stagnation of Sweden. Socialistic complacency. Why go to work when your unemployment benefit is something like 80% of your former pay for some ridiculously long period of time. It's a country where he told me Poles go just to commit a crime and get thrown in jail for the benefits. People need an incentive to work. If the big patronizing government gives everything away the people who do the work are working for everybody but themselves and those that don't have no reason to. Dear Joakim hates America because it's too hard. Poor Joakim.

And your argument that America wouldn't be here if not for Europe is the same as my argument that Europe wouldn't be there today if not for America. And around and 'round we go...

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by made in holland


I think it's a two-way problem. A large majority of the Europeans don't have the slightest problem with America. But there will always be a small minority of people with Anti-American feelings. You can't please everyone.

But i've been talking to some old friends of me, who recently came back from a exchange programm with an American school. And they all told me that some of the Americans they've spoken with, have Anti-European feelings. Again, it's unavoidable.

But when i read your posts ( and especially the last one ), it looks as if all European citizens, every single one of them, has a deep hate for America, and that America is a small paradise on earth, where we all want to live.

I think you are judging the European opinions a bit wrongly.

Admittedly, yes. But the European elite, the ones who get heard and make the big decisions... that's who I'm talking about.

 

[duo17]

Originally posted by milefile


And your argument that America wouldn't be here if not for Europe is the same as my argument that Europe wouldn't be there today if not for America. And around and 'round we go...

I'm pretty sure that this conflict doesn't go around in circles... Go to the root of this argument and you'll find the answer.

OA

 

[Robin2]

Originally posted by slip2rock
Ummm.... i've read though this thread twice now and i'm still trying to get to grips with the central issues....

I really want to comment on some of the posts here but i really don't know where to start.

But in short to my knowledge none of my mates (real life ones) have any issue with any particular nationality. I mean we joke about the French, take the mick out of the Irish / Scots / Welsh and yep we do take the piss out of the Yanks and the Germans. But it's all fairly innocent I certainly would be horrified if anyone took real offence. I do find the Americans a little overly sensitive to critism. You might want to take a look at the French for some lessons in dealing with that sort of thing.

Honestly guys you do make a bit of a target out of yourselves, milefile I think as a member of the British public i do find statements like "The USA won WWII" a bit hurtful , it's belittling to the efforts of the other Allied Nations. I would remind you that we'd been fighting since '39 in the defence of our neighbours whereas you guys had to have a damn good kick in the bollocks before stepping up to the wicket and doing the right thing. If you take a good look at the statistics relating to the war i think you'll find the Russians put in a far greater effort in knocking down the Nazi's than America. And pound for pound we paid a massive price, that last war was the final straw for the British Empire....... But it was worth it and I imagine we'd be prepared to pay it again. We knew we were going to get our arses kicked and we still got tooled up and went for it and even when we were totally knackered after the war we still helped the Germans sort themselves out.

you beat me to it .

for me, that was one of the biggest dissapointments of WW2. until pearl harbour, americans didnt give a toss about the war and as soon as they were hurt, they decided it was time for revenge. bit like september 11....