Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

[Jedi2016]

I honestly don't find the sounds in GT6 that bad except for that whining noise I hear on the race cars. Why do they make that noises in the higher revs?

Straight-cut racing transmission. They sound even more ear-tearing in real life.

 

[OdeFinn]

That s2000 was some reference point of sound? All cars on GT6 are sounding way much better than that frog sounded car.
If that video is analysed on same level what people are using on GT6, that game should be on drawing board still with that alpha glass physics sounds interior graphics art overall, is that some forza 1 game?(alpha possible?)
If that was from latest forza...uuh, never ever want to see that game again.

 

[Oberheim]

Do you know what a screamer pipe is?
The (stock) Gallardo sample isn't all that different from an S1 Evo's exhaust sound.
It's certainly miles better than the current sample.

I assume you mean either a torque inducing pipe 4-2-1 dor those Japanese 9k rpm moments or a 4-1 straight through peak power buster found on touring cars, Nascar etc? Have you ever heard an S1, not a compressed video or badly distorted soundtrack, but with your own ears, at full chat? I'll tell you now, the exhaust is not what makes the legendary Quattro 'sound', it only accentuates it. It's baritome sound with a very aggressive snarl, regardless of OEM or aftermarket exhaust. Hearing an S1 work it's way through the revs is a devasting experience.

I don't want the S1 to sound like a Gallardo with a screamer pipe. I want it to sound like an S1. I don't know if your mixing game with reality but I can't hear any resemblance to an S1 from the Gallardo at all.

 

[Oberheim]

Straight-cut racing transmission. They sound even more ear-tearing in real life.

I love the sound of straight cut drivetrains. It's like supercharger whine but on steroids!

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Straight-cut racing transmission. They sound even more ear-tearing in real life.

Ah, it sounds fine in other driving games though to me, but it just sounds weird to me in GT6 still.

 

[Griffith500]

I assume you mean either a torque inducing pipe 4-2-1 dor those Japanese 9k rpm moments or a 4-1 straight through peak power buster found on touring cars, Nascar etc? Have you ever heard an S1, not a compressed video or badly distorted soundtrack, but with your own ears, at full chat? I'll tell you now, the exhaust is not what makes the legendary Quattro 'sound', it only accentuates it. It's baritome sound with a very aggressive snarl, regardless of OEM or aftermarket exhaust. Hearing an S1 work it's way through the revs is a devasting experience.

I don't want the S1 to sound like a Gallardo with a screamer pipe. I want it to sound like an S1. I don't know if your mixing game with reality but I can't hear any resemblance to an S1 from the Gallardo at all.

A screamer pipe is a short stub attached to the wastegate, effectively venting the exhaust manifold to atmosphere from whatever ridiculous pressure it's at.

It has a characteristic sound combining an aggressive exhaust note (high pressure amplitude, before expansion in the turbine) and lots of flow noise. It's easy to see how they got their name:

 

[Vegard]

I assume you mean either a torque inducing pipe 4-2-1 dor those Japanese 9k rpm moments or a 4-1 straight through peak power buster found on touring cars, Nascar etc? Have you ever heard an S1, not a compressed video or badly distorted soundtrack, but with your own ears, at full chat? I'll tell you now, the exhaust is not what makes the legendary Quattro 'sound', it only accentuates it. It's baritome sound with a very aggressive snarl, regardless of OEM or aftermarket exhaust. Hearing an S1 work it's way through the revs is a devasting experience.

I don't want the S1 to sound like a Gallardo with a screamer pipe. I want it to sound like an S1. I don't know if your mixing game with reality but I can't hear any resemblance to an S1 from the Gallardo at all.

See Griffith's explenation regarding the screamer pipe.

I know the Gallardo sample doesn't sound identical to the S1, nothing does.
But I think it's the closest thing out of the existing samples.
If you "can't hear any resemblance to an S1 from the Gallardo at all" we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

And yes, I was lucky enough to see an ex-works S1 E2 car at a track day 10 years ago, and a 'Pikes Peak car in 2011.

 

[Oberheim]

I don't know it as a screamer pipe. I know it as a Divorced Wastegate.

In the game, I've said elswhere (maybe in this thread), the closest thing I've heard to the S1 is the Alfa Romeo TZ3. But even that sounds closer to the S1's 10v predecessor.

I'm flexible on a lot of the sounds in GT6 but there are particularly 2 that PD have overstepped the mark: Ferrari V12's and Quattro S1. To me, it's sacrilege to do so, a criminal act. If PD can't do these two justice, keep them out of the game.

It's so embarrassing when a xbox user sees the game and asks 'what the **** is that?', only to sheepishly switch camera to external views. The number of broken cups I've had to sweep up as it falls to the floor from their jaw dropping shock is, quite frankly, getting out of hand!

 

[Griffith500]

@Oberheim Divorced as in the sense of "separated"? That would just be an external wastegate, I think (as opposed to internal / integrated).

External wastegates are still usually plumbed into the existing exhaust system after the turbine (which makes sense given the noise issue), or they can just be set up vent to atmosphere as-is (as they often are on race engines), at which point you've got a "screamer pipe".

Not a technical or official term, more a straight-forward description, esp. for road cars, given the lack of silencing.

There is reason to be optimistic about the sounds right about now, though.

 

[1241Penguin]

That certainly is not a VTEC sound.

Of course not, the S2000 has a V8 in it...

 

[TheCrazySwede]

I don't want the S1 to sound like a Gallardo with a screamer pipe. I want it to sound like an S1. I don't know if your mixing game with reality but I can't hear any resemblance to an S1 from the Gallardo at all.

I completely agree.

I've had the pleasure of hearing an S1 Quattro soaring by (on two different occasions) and I can't hear the resemblance between that sound and the sound of a Lamborghini Gallardo, both in real life or in the game. Growing up in Scandinavia, rally racing was the go-to form of motorsport. The S1 is and always will be one of my childhood heroes and it gets absolutely slaughtered in GT6. Personally, I thought Forza Motorsport 4 (Which I believe has great car sounds) did a half-donkey'ed job of replicating the sound of the Audi, too, so I can't be too harsh on PD. Dirt3, I believe, had some accurate sounds for those old school Group B monsters.


My favorite car in the world is a McLaren F1. I've never driven one, but I've started one before (Met the manager at a McLaren Dealership who owned a red F1 and had it parked outside. I asked if I could love on it, haha) and the noise that sucker makes sounds like crap in GT6
Honestly, I think Muscle Cars have it the worst, because they need that deep, growlin' V8 sound that we all know and love, and PD does a terrible job at deep and growlin' noises. Poor V8's

 

[Oberheim]

@Oberheim Divorced as in the sense of "separated"? That would just be an external wastegate, I think (as opposed to internal / integrated).

External wastegates are still usually plumbed into the existing exhaust system after the turbine (which makes sense given the noise issue), or they can just be set up vent to atmosphere as-is (as they often are on race engines), at which point you've got a "screamer pipe".

Not a technical or official term, more a straight-forward description, esp. for road cars, given the lack of silencing.

There is reason to be optimistic about the sounds right about now, though.

No, seperated as in seperating the exhaust gasses from the turbo when the desired peak boost is reached, to reduce/eliminate turbulence at the turbo and excessive exhaust back pressure. As those gasses from the 'screamer pipe' aren't going through a cat or silencer, they're illegal on road cars in most countries because of emission laws. The vast majority of race tracks have db restrictions too, so they're not much use there either.

 

[Oberheim]

I completely agree.

I've had the pleasure of hearing an S1 Quattro soaring by (on two different occasions) and I can't hear the resemblance between that sound and the sound of a Lamborghini Gallardo, both in real life or in the game. Growing up in Scandinavia, rally racing was the go-to form of motorsport. The S1 is and always will be one of my childhood heroes and it gets absolutely slaughtered in GT6. Personally, I thought Forza Motorsport 4 (Which I believe has great car sounds) did a half-donkey'ed job of replicating the sound of the Audi, too, so I can't be too harsh on PD. Dirt3, I believe, had some accurate sounds for those old school Group B monsters.

I've got Dirt 3 as well. Defo the most authentic sounding Quattro on PS3. If Codemasters can do this, what the hell is going on at PD?

Ultimate Quattro:

 

[King1982]

That certainly is not a VTEC sound.

It has an LS1 engine swap..

 

[Mulan]

I've got Dirt 3 as well. Defo the most authentic sounding Quattro on PS3. If Codemasters can do this, what the hell is going on at PD?

Ultimate Quattro:

PD wants perhaps 4000posts on the subject. Actually what PD needs is someone responsible for sounds and a team of experts so this is done for all future games in the series.

 

[Oberheim]

PD wants perhaps 4000posts on the subject. Actually what PD needs is someone responsible for sounds and a team of experts so this is done for all future games in the series.

PD needs the car manufacturers featured in the game to threaten them with a lawsuit or withdrawing the licensing. Take the BMW Z4 and Mercedes (forget which model it is, it's like the Z4) GT3 cars. Both V8's. Mercedes is quite liveable but the Z4? Sounds like a damn food blender. Why aren't BMW breathing down their neck asking!

 

[Dodzzz]

I've got Dirt 3 as well. Defo the most authentic sounding Quattro on PS3. If Codemasters can do this, what the hell is going on at PD?

Ultimate Quattro:

How many cars are there in Dirt 3? then compare how many cars in GT6..
PD simply don't have enough time (yet) to perfect the sound of these 1200 cars, they're focusing on other areas first I assume.. for example.. the moon , and the stars LOL

But seriously, it seems like PD is always interested in graphic quality rather than sound quality.

 

[Chippy569]

10 cyl cars and 5 cyl cars sound very similar, since a 10-cyl car is harmonically balanced with a 5-cyl car, RPM's being equal. If you want some math on that, I'll explain:

fundamental frequncy = the lowest frequency produced by a sound, upon which harmonics are built. If you have ever had an electric keyboard that could be tuned to something like A440 or A430, that's talking about the A key's fundamental being 440 (or 430) Hz. When you play that A key, the lowest frequency produced is 440, with combinations of even harmonics (880, 1760, etc) and odd harmonics (1320, 3960, etc) in varying strengths on top of that. That's sort of how sound works. For a good refresher on the physics of that, click here.
To find the fundamental frequency of a 4-stroke engine, the math is pretty simple: Frequency = EngineRPM * NumberOfCylinders /(60*2). The /60 is converting the M in RPM to seconds for Hz, and the /2 is for factoring a 4-stroke (ie you only get exhaust flowing out of the system half as often as the engine RPM suggests).

For a 5-cyl engine running at 1,000 RPM, the fundamental frequency is 41.6 Hz, and at 10,000 RPM 416.6 Hz.
For a 10-cyl engine running at 1,000 RPM, the fundamental frequency is 83.3 Hz, and at 10,000 RPM 833.3 Hz.

Notice that the 10 cyl's fundamental frequency at 1,000 RPM is exactly 2x that of the 5-cyl, which also is the same thing as being the 5-cyl's first-order harmonic. Meaning, all of the frequencies that a 10-cyl can produce, a 5-cyl also can produce, plus the lower fundamental from the five.

So what makes different engines sound different? The relative loudness of each of the harmonics is what distinguishes the same sounds to us. Even though a flute and a piano play the same note, we can tell which one is which because the flute emphasizes different harmonics than the piano. Well, the same is true with engines. A cross-plane V8 like an LS1 emphasizes its harmonics differently than a flat-plane V8 like a Ferrari. The difference in emphasis comes from a number of things, like firing order, header design, displacement and engine efficiency, and exhaust length and muffler design. In the case of the Audi I5 sounding similar to some V10's, this is largely due to having similar emphasized harmonics. Personally, I find the original Viper V10's to sound the most similar to an I5 since at a functional level, the engine in those is basically two I5's with a common crank - each having its own intake and exhaust which never intersect. Even putting an X-pipe on a viper would radically change its sound, now that I think about it. (and at one point when they moved to rear-exit exhaust, they did just that and it sounds totally different.) Car and Driver seems to agree with me about all of this too.

anyway, that was a lot of words to basically say that a V10 sounding like an I5 shouldn't be super surprising.

 

[R35-Vspec]

10 cyl cars and 5 cyl cars sound very similar, since a 10-cyl car is harmonically balanced with a 5-cyl car, RPM's being equal. If you want some math on that, I'll explain:

4-cyl sounds like 8-cyl sounds like 16-cyl
3-cyl sounds like 6-cyl sounds like 12-cyl

All according to my ears

 

[Oberheim]

How many cars are there in Dirt 3? then compare how many cars in GT6..
PD simply don't have enough time (yet) to perfect the sound of these 1200 cars, they're focusing on other areas first I assume.. for example.. the moon , and the stars LOL

But seriously, it seems like PD is always interested in graphic quality rather than sound quality.

Quite right, but after 15 years the sound engine should be what they're focusing on first.

There doesn't need to be 1200 cars, maybe 100 - 150. Who's interested in running round in a 2CV or a WW2 German military vehicle? Cars like the Honda Fit don't really have a place in this game. After all the title is Gran Turismo, there's enough road and competition GT cars built in the last 30yrs to have varied content without the need for 'stocking fillers'.

That's why I'm not getting all excited about the new sound engine, it can't possibly have genuine samples for 1200 cars. The game format is becoming stale, cars are getting rehashed over and over again. There's cars in GT6 that we're in GT4, so really all we're are doing is buying the same game but with better visuals. The franchise needs to be re-invented and if that means Sony taking it away from PD, then I'm all for it if it's a better game. I appreciate what PD have done for Playstation, their input has been huge, but the the system of starting with a small car, earning licenses, winning events for credits to buy bigger cars is now in it's sixth iteration. Online play is where it's at and I think that's the direction GT should be heading.

If you look at iRacing or rFactor there aren't 1200 cars, far from it. The graphics of both aren't as detailed as GT, but the sound, physics and online features are miles ahead. There's full team structure with API's for developers to tap into so they can start their clubs and leagues and have their own websites updated with real time data. The controller options are immense with displays just for timing info, car data readouts etc. I know PS3 isn't capable but the PS4 can go a lot further than what we have now. PD have bitten of more than they can chew, GT is now heavily bloated with cars most of us will never ever buy, so scale it back and concentrate on a better experiance.

They have to realise that in 2013/14, what GT offers in the sound department is unacceptable. If you look at the fps games available, there are multi samples being used all of the time. BF3 for example, there's over 100 weapons to choose from. In game there are jet sounds, helicopters, tanks, guns, armoured vehicles, grenades, yelling, motion sound, defibs, clamores, radar, missiles.... Even the knife has it's own sound. All that gets done in the same match without the PS3 crapping out. In comparison GT does a hell of a lot less.

 

[vsaber]

Thanks

Sounds pretty cool actually

 

[Griffith500]

@Oberheim don't misunderstand what the sound engine does. The sound engine is the first thing they've focused on, in that it has been considerably improved since the PS2 iterations, and that was considerably improved over the PS1. What's stayed the same are the samples, the assets, which are effectively what they were in GT2 (which was a massive step up from GT1, incidentally). They've upgraded the sound system, but are playing the same old lo-fi music through it.

Of course, the sound generation step is part of the sound engine, much as the mixing and localising step is, and it's the latter that has been mainly improved (although there are tangible examples of "better" sampling going on, just that the samples are the same and don't necessarily facilitate the full advantage of such improvements.)

What's important to recognise, as well, is that racing games have several constant sounds, full streams of audio filling bandwidth capabilities of whatever hardware you're using. One-shot incidental effects like gun shots, explosions, yells, door creaks, bird calls etc. can all be efficiently scheduled and switched in a small number of channels.

Racing games need all the channels (they need) all the time. GT6 has addressed that last issue finally (camera view switches in replays have sound from your car from two locations; in GT5 it was only one, with a late or early switch in audio depending on the difference in distance from the camera between the two views - because the game models delay, another thing GT innovated on).
Although it sounds like it has teething problems given all the drop outs and failures to initialise, and is, in my opinion, why the new sounds have been delayed. That's because it would be put under much more duress if there are to be more virtual channels to juggle into the "physical" ones (which are somewhat rigidly juggled onto the Cell's SPUs), and it's more layers that GT desperately needs.

As for iRacing etc., those are a different expression of what it means to be "into" cars. GT has its own expression, and that should become clearer as things like Vision GT and the Course Maker progress further.


The beauty of the new sound system will be, I think (I'm growing more confident with this assumption having heard the new exhaust sound generation method), that "samples" will be more or less redundant. Recordings, as reference material, will still be useful to the point of necessity, but the level of customisation and tweaking available in their new model, as I have interpreted it, will allow them to get very close to cars they might not be able to get samples for just by knowing what engine it has, from pictures of the engine bay, from data provided by the manufacturer etc. To a lesser degree (in terms of complexity, expressivity and accuracy), that's what's happening in the video I posted on the previous page.

Pretty exciting, reassuring and, I'd say, timely for the industry as a whole.

 

[Oberheim]

@Oberheim don't misunderstand what the sound engine does. The sound engine is the first thing they've focused on, in that it has been considerably improved since the PS2 iterations, and that was considerably improved over the PS1. What's stayed the same are the samples, the assets, which are effectively what they were in GT2 (which was a massive step up from GT1, incidentally). They've upgraded the sound system, but are playing the same old lo-fi music through it.

Of course, the sound generation step is part of the sound engine, much as the mixing and localising step is, and it's the latter that has been mainly improved (although there are tangible examples of "better" sampling going on, just that the samples are the same and don't necessarily facilitate the full advantage of such improvements.)

What's important to recognise, as well, is that racing games have several constant sounds, full streams of audio filling bandwidth capabilities of whatever hardware you're using. One-shot incidental effects like gun shots, explosions, yells, door creaks, bird calls etc. can all be efficiently scheduled and switched in a small number of channels.

Racing games need all the channels (they need) all the time. GT6 has addressed that last issue finally (camera view switches in replays have sound from your car from two locations; in GT5 it was only one, with a late or early switch in audio depending on the difference in distance from the camera between the two views - because the game models delay, another thing GT innovated on).
Although it sounds like it has teething problems given all the drop outs and failures to initialise, and is, in my opinion, why the new sounds have been delayed. That's because it would be put under much more duress if there are to be more virtual channels to juggle into the "physical" ones (which are somewhat rigidly juggled onto the Cell's SPUs), and it's more layers that GT desperately needs.

As for iRacing etc., those are a different expression of what it means to be "into" cars. GT has its own expression, and that should become clearer as things like Vision GT and the Course Maker progress further.


The beauty of the new sound system will be, I think (I'm growing more confident with this assumption having heard the new exhaust sound generation method), that "samples" will be more or less redundant. Recordings, as reference material, will still be useful to the point of necessity, but the level of customisation and tweaking available in their new model, as I have interpreted it, will allow them to get very close to cars they might not be able to get samples for just by knowing what engine it has, from pictures of the engine bay, from data provided by the manufacturer etc. To a lesser degree (in terms of complexity, expressivity and accuracy), that's what's happening in the video I posted on the previous page.

Pretty exciting, reassuring and, I'd say, timely for the industry as a whole.

It's still unacceptable for it not to be in-game at launch. There is too much 'that will come later' with PD. When I talk about the sound engine I'm talking about the core synthesis model employed. As an example, take NASCAR. When you whatch these cars on tv with the static trackside mounted camera, those cars fly by with a 'voom, voom, voom' (why do I feel ridiculous right now!), you know they've passed by at speed, you can hear the suction of air as they've passed. In GT, the sound gives you the feeling of the cars slowly passing by as if on a parade lap. It's been improved a little in GT6 but not much.

I've only heard one car, the x junior, that has an audible indicator when backing off the throttle. Even this, though, is missing the cracks and popping that high performance cars have when on overrun. There's also the cracks of unburnt fuel igniting in the exhaust (we have a visual representation, but where's the audio to go with it). There's no chirping (only a slight whooosh) on high pressure turbo systems (again, Quattro S1 as an example). I'm not saying that the entire engine sound sould be a sample, but looking at success the Japanese have had with digital synthesis, why don't PD adopt the same method? The sample starts the sound, sysnthesis creates the tail end of it (Korg, Roland, Yamaha). I'd say there is far more going on sonically in mordern fps games. The gameplay is so fast paced, those sounds I mentioned are constant throughout the entire match.

Kaz has an unquestionable passion for cars, it's his passion for games that I'm begining to doubt.

 

[Griffith500]

It's still unacceptable for it not to be in-game at launch. There is too much 'that will come later' with PD. When I talk about the sound engine I'm talking about the core synthesis model employed. As an example, take NASCAR. When you whatch these cars on tv with the static trackside mounted camera, those cars fly by with a 'voom, voom, voom' (why do I feel ridiculous right now!), you know they've passed by at speed, you can hear the suction of air as they've passed. In GT, the sound gives you the feeling of the cars slowly passing by as if on a parade lap. It's been improved a little in GT6 but not much.

I've only heard one car, the x junior, that has an audible indicator when backing off the throttle. Even this, though, is missing the cracks and popping that high performance cars have when on overrun. There's also the cracks of unburnt fuel igniting in the exhaust (we have a visual representation, but where's the audio to go with it). There's no chirping (only a slight whooosh) on high pressure turbo systems (again, Quattro S1 as an example). I'm not saying that the entire engine sound sould be a sample, but looking at success the Japanese have had with digital synthesis, why don't PD adopt the same method? The sample starts the sound, sysnthesis creates the tail end of it (Korg, Roland, Yamaha). I'd say there is far more going on sonically in mordern fps games. The gameplay is so fast paced, those sounds I mentioned are constant throughout the entire match.

Kaz has an unquestionable passion for cars, it's his passion for games that I'm begining to doubt.

That's just it. The X cars have a new synthesis method unlike any other I've heard in a commercial game, that much is obvious - and I've named Yamaha deliberately, from my own personal knowledge of synthesis techniques and what I believe I'm hearing. But it's still being used in the same framework that supports the age old samples, so it's just exhaust sound, which the new method, as I've interpreted it, isn't (shouldn't be) designed for - that's demonstrated in the video I posted.

What's missing on the NASCAR cars is what's missing on all cars: additional layers, in this case, the intake, which is the defining sound of a NASCAR engine, in my opinion. You can't add more layers without requiring more channels (unless you cheat, but we're surely past that by now), which is where this currently buggy stream switching comes in.

I think PD could have delayed the game, but at what cost? It's unfortunate that these things will have to come in patches, but if they come in the end, I don't see the issue. We know now that they have indeed been working on a "completely new way of generating sounds", because they're in the game for all to hear (and are much celebrated, the only detractions coming from a perception of a deliberate artistic attempt to side-step the limitations of the old sampling scheme; again see the video I posted on the previous page.)

The exhaust pops are there, but they're too quiet - I don't expect they'll carry over (the Junior has a little bit of over-run pinking and chuffing without, it seems, a specific "pop generator", and the synth method is more than able to handle it - yet again, see my video ). They have a serious mixing issue at the moment, and I expect that's partly in anticipation of the new sounds, which will need their own mix balance against tyre sounds etc. Those incidental effects can come after the fundamentals are sorted, in my opinion, and will still need a dynamic channel attribution system, which still needs to have its bugs ironed out, by the sounds of things.


PD have been playing the long game on the technical side of things, and we're about to start reaping those benefits in the coming months (hopefully it's months...). Then you can think about which of "quick fix, instant gratification", or "long term benefits and progressive thinking to further the industry in general" shows more "passion".

 

[Oberheim]

I think PD could have delayed the game, but at what cost? It's unfortunate that these things will have to come in patches, but if they come in the end, I don't see the issue.

The issue is, for me, is that I've had a PS4 sat in it's box since launch day. Drive Club and Blacklight: Retribution missed launch day so I invested in GT6. But by the time PD release the new sounds it could be anything from a few months to over a year, by which time I've got tired of waiting and jumped ship and will never buy another GT game again.

GT6 is likely to be the last big release on PS3, it should have been right, especially as they are competing against PS4. I'd guess there are tens of thousands of people who held back on buying the game untill they found out for sure what the game is like. I doubt they'll buy it now given the problems, negative feedback and the fact the game has less features (at the moment) than the game it's replacing!

Why do they have to come in patches? GT6 is suffering from the same sound issues as GT5 did: missing layers, no sound at all, wrong sounds for the car etc. Why have they not learned from GT5?

The exhaust pops are there, but they're too quiet - I don't expect they'll carry over (the Junior has a little bit of over-run pinking and chuffing without, it seems, a specific "pop generator", and the synth method is more than able to handle it - yet again, see my video ). They have a serious mixing issue at the moment, and I expect that's partly in anticipation of the new sounds, which will need their own mix balance against tyre sounds etc.

Are you listening to the game via heaphones or hi-fi, I just can't hear the pops through my tv speakers? I think it too early to have a definate opinion on the 'new sounds', just because of the junior. We're talking about a ficticious car that doesn't have a reality brother to compare to as a benchmark. The proof will be found (or not) when a model that is based on reality gets updated.

I've only Dirt 3 to use as a comparison for sounds in racing car games. But, I've seen the Youtube vids of Need For Speed, F1 and WRC. All sound better than GTx, so how come those developers can do it in their games? I wonder what the Motostorm games sounded like, I've never seen or heatd them.

In short, there's still no excuse for the state GT6's sounds.

 

[HuskyGT]

Just tried the Countach (the newer one). Still sounds terrible. No exhaust will fix it. It has the same sample than the Cizeta when stock, sounds like a Viper V10 with the sports, like a V8 with Semi-Racing and like... something unrecognizable with the Racing Exhaust.

I can't understand why PD forgets about a lot of cars, when they even go through the hassle of improving some cars that already had a good sound in GT5. What even makes me angrier is that they put the Viper V10 sample in all Lamborghinis with the Sports Exhaust and in the Viper ACR, yet not in the old Viper GTS.

So far, two disappointments that are unfixable and that I'll have to skip until GT7:

-Countach (the new one)
-Viper GTS (the old one. Been waiting for a proper Viper V10 sound since GT2. Oh well... what's another three years.)

Please, PD. It's not that hard. Patch the old Viper GTS and give it the same sample than the other Vipers or the V10 sample that some cars have with the sports exhaust. I really want to enjoy that car, and I've already skipped it through the last four GT's. Please!

 

[TheCrazySwede]

Are you listening to the game via heaphones or hi-fi, I just can't hear the pops through my tv speakers? I think it too early to have a definate opinion on the 'new sounds', just because of the junior. We're talking about a ficticious car that doesn't have a reality brother to compare to as a benchmark. The proof will be found (or not) when a model that is based on reality gets updated.

I've only Dirt 3 to use as a comparison for sounds in racing car games. But, I've seen the Youtube vids of Need For Speed, F1 and WRC. All sound better than GTx, so how come those developers can do it in their games? I wonder what the Motostorm games sounded like, I've never seen or heatd them.

In short, there's still no excuse for the state GT6's sounds.

Sound recording sessions are done differently between developers. Forza Motorsport has the cars on a Dyno, recording the intake, the sides and the exhaust, for example. I know someone who works for SimBin (The lads behind GTR2 and the RaceRoom Sims) and I know they actually use a lot of on-track audio, not just dyno testing. If I remember correctly, that game has 32 different sounds coming from the car (Intake, Wheels, Suspension, Exhaust, Cabin, Track Debris, etc.)
In fact, my friend mentioned that EA actually used a lot of their sampling in the Shift 2 Unleashed, but used the data differently.

My guess is that PD just generate the noises themselves, instead of actually recording anything. Honestly, the exhaust sounds in GT6 don't even sound like cars, more like the sound a child makes with his mouth when playing with matchbox cars. You can almost hear the spit coming out of a 6 years old mouth when driving some of the V12's...

 

[Griffith500]

@Oberheim, you're entitled to do as you please, and the fact that you feel disappointed in your "investments" is unfortunate.

Regarding the sounds, it's clear why it's suffering "the same old issues": it's the same old sound. We knew that would be the case before the game was launched, yet you bought it anyway.

With the X cars, it seems that the PS3 is indeed already capable of the new method, but its limited and non-optimal application (it is not representative of what the new technique could do) implies there is indeed some technical hurdle in the way (I suspect virtual channel management, streaming and level of detail mixing systems). Your fear of their not being able to do new sounds for 1200 cars seems unfounded, as it's likely that's what they've been doing for the whole PS3 cycle so far! Which would explain why we've had to make do with the same old sounds, the new ones were unavailable for use, technically speaking.

Having played with various techniques for ground-up synthesis of engine sounds, I know how powerful it can be; I've often been surprised by "plugging in" numbers etc. and finding the right sound just "falls out" - examples being something like a 350Z, 355 (and LFA by extension), Esprit / MP4-12C etc. whose unique sounds can be attributed to something peculiar about their engine and ancillary packaging. Most of the techniques I know of can be made to sound as real as sample-based synthesis, with varying levels of "effort" - most of them are much more flexible, however.

In that sense, it becomes less about vague, impenetrably obtuse descriptions of how engines are imagined to work, and more about geometry and harmonics (also a kind of geometry) - the things that actually determine the sound, and things that are easily quantifiable and used as inputs to a general model.


@TheCrazySwede Kaz admitted that they used to do a lot of free revving recordings, which means part throttle, which means air / fuel instability, which means "spitting" exhausts. Since GT4 (!) they've used dynamometer and track recordings. But that's not actually that necessary, if the new method is what I think it is - but still very useful. Make no mistake, all the sounds in the game are from recordings. They're just in a format originally designed for the PS1. Also, there are only exhaust sounds in the game, which is not the full picture by any stretch (I made a video about it once).

 

[MasamuneDate]

Of course not, the S2000 has a V8 in it...

Yeah, I saw it in the video's description.
So, Forza 5 allows you to swap engines? If that's so, thumbs up.

 

[Oberheim]

@Oberheim
Regarding the sounds, it's clear why it's suffering "the same old issues": it's the same old sound. We knew that would be the case before the game was launched, yet you bought it anyway.

Actually, in the UK we didn't find out much of what was included in the game untill a couple weeks from its release, even then it was sketchy. As far as I knew from then on the sounds 'may or may' not be included, as launch grew closer this changed to 'unlikely to be included' and then 'will it be included it the big day 1 update'. I heard or saw of no solid answers from PD, something which has been talked of elsewhere on this site. In short, no one knew what was included untill we got it. I believe that's why there was so many pre-order gifts, to get people to buy even though there was little info on what the game had improved on.

Your fear of their not being able to do new sounds for 1200 cars seems unfounded, as it's likely that's what they've been doing for the whole PS3 cycle so far! Which would explain why we've had to make do with the same old sounds, the new ones were unavailable for use, technically speaking.


Kaz admitted that they used to do a lot of free revving recordings, which means part throttle, which means air / fuel instability, which means "spitting" exhausts. Since GT4 (!) they've used dynamometer and track recordings. But that's not actually that necessary, if the new method is what I think it is - but still very useful. Make no mistake, all the sounds in the game are from recordings. They're just in a format originally designed for the PS1. Also, there are only exhaust sounds in the game, which is not the full picture by any stretch (I made a video about it once).

Come on, think about it. It's impossible to get recordings for all of those cars. Some of the cars are in museums and haven't been driven or run for years. Certainly, the rarities won't have been recorded. Owners (private, manufacturers or museum) wont be handing over cars worth millions to a games development company to put said car on a dyno and risk it blowing up in the process.

Take the Bentley Speed 8, the model in the game was raced only once, at Le Mans in 2003 which it one. Of the other Speed 8's, only one was sold to a collector in Japan (chassis 2/3) on the proviso it will never be used in competition again. That car is now owned and kept by an American in America. Chassis 4 & 5 have never been run because of damage or display purposes. Bentley own chassis 1/3 & 3/3 and consider them priceless and do NOT allow them to be thrashed, either on track or dyno. When they are driven for PR duties they are heavily restricted (arround the 400hp mark, if that) with strict rev limiting. Bentley's engineers are all over the car like the plague during the excersise. With the massive detune and rev limiting, it's impossible to get the real sound from the car.

The Corvette Stingray Concept Car (one in existance) is still owned by Chevrolet, doesn't even have it's original engine (having gone through different blocks during it's time) and has even tighter security than the Speed 8. Also would you allow your 250 GTO to be dyno'd? I wouldn't, the last one bought that I know of was by UK tv presenter Chris Evans. I believe it cost him £12 million GBP. At that price, you just wouldn't.