Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

[GranTourist]

Disagree, sounds should be simply as realistic as possible. Not weaker or not louder.
As you know we have always played games with no acceleration and i don't think it has been that bad. Games will never be like real life, its impossible.

But what do I do when I have a very realistic sound and at the same time I am not satisfied with that?
When driving in real life on the track with a helmet on my head the engine sounds are absorbed to a great amount. Recording exacly that sound inside the helmet would be very realistic. And also it would be quite boring and unsatisfying for me in a racing game.

Should I then subordinate myself to the fact that realism is something above my individual sensation which has to be dignified as absoluteness? Why? What for? I don't want to make a 'reality-religion' out of my passion.
As you state correctly: Games will never be like real life, its impossible.

Well, why not should it be legitimate to use all kind of surrogates and substitutes to compensate things which can not be transfered into a game/simulation? Serious industrial simulators do so to create an immersive sensation.

Wouldn't it be the best solution, when the player could pick out from different sound options/scenarios ('head in helmet', 'exaggerated', 'realistic', ...) his favorite sound set rather than trying to define one universal reference which has then to be accepted by everyone? That will apparently never work - look at the endless discussions on that subject.

If I was from PD and would follow the discussions concerning sound I would report to Kaz:
Those guys don't even bother to distiguish between the quality of a sound and the authenticity of a sample. They mix up everthing and flavor that discussion hotpot with the demand for more 'reality'. They don't really know what they want. We should just keep sounds as they are.

Since I'm not from PD my viewpoint is:
- Quality of sounds is good in Gran Turismo. Good sound systems can unfold that quality even more
- Authenticity of many sound samples are far off. This cannot be corrected with sound settings but only with correct sound samples
- Exaggeration/accentuation of sounds should be part of user adjustable preferences

 

[MSTER232]

I think people need to see the linked video which was posted also posted on the first page of this thread summer last year. Seriously... if some person in their living room can make a very accurate and great sound surely PD can do so.


www.youtube.com/embed/IHgo0wEsL_w

That awkward moment when one guy in his living room is better at producing car sounds than a whole sound developer team at PD... .

 

[NixxxoN]

But what do I do when I have a very realistic sound and at the same time I am not satisfied with that?
When driving in real life on the track with a helmet on my head the engine sounds are absorbed to a great amount. Recording exacly that sound inside the helmet would be very realistic. And also it would be quite boring and unsatisfying for me in a racing game.

Should I then subordinate myself to the fact that realism is something above my individual sensation which has to be dignified as absoluteness? Why? What for? I don't want to make a 'reality-religion' out of my passion.
As you state correctly: Games will never be like real life, its impossible.

Well, why not should it be legitimate to use all kind of surrogates and substitutes to compensate things which can not be transfered into a game/simulation? Serious industrial simulators do so to create an immersive sensation.

Wouldn't it be the best solution, when the player could pick out from different sound options/scenarios ('head in helmet', 'exaggerated', 'realistic', ...) his favorite sound set rather than trying to define one universal reference which has then to be accepted by everyone? That will apparently never work - look at the endless discussions on that subject.

If I was from PD and would follow the discussions concerning sound I would report to Kaz:
Those guys don't even bother to distiguish between the quality of a sound and the authenticity of a sample. They mix up everthing and flavor that discussion hotpot with the demand for more 'reality'. They don't really know what they want. We should just keep sounds as they are.

Since I'm not from PD my viewpoint is:
- Quality of sounds is good in Gran Turismo. Good sound systems can unfold that quality even more
- Authenticity of many sound samples are far off. This cannot be corrected with sound settings but only with correct sound samples
- Exaggeration/accentuation of sounds should be part of user adjustable preferences

👍
That's it, by far the best solution would be to be able to choose what do you want, the only way to make everyone happy these days...

 

[starknight97]

@MSTER232 Indeed.

 

[Griffith500]

genuinely curious, what's the evidence you have on this?

For what it's worth the highest-revving engines are the easiest to mask with a looping system in the upper RPM's because the change in pitch from 1000 to 2000 RPM is the same as 10,000 to 20,000. This is because pitch is logarithmically related to frequency. Or to put it another way, every doubling of frequency is the perception of an octave, where RPM and frequency are linearly related.

Your average loop-based sound can be pitch shifted a certain range before starting to sound wonky/fake/snythy/vacuumy, usually an octave is the upper limit for an engine sample. This means one sample can cover 10,000 to 20,000 relatively comfortably, as can one cover 8,000 to 4,000. In the case of being under-sampled this means very-high-revving cars mask the shortcomings of the looped system better than other cars with lower rev ranges, number of loops being equal.

My ears only, in fairness; but if you listen to them natively and, crucially, interact with them (rather than spectating a demonstration), they don't feel like sampled sounds, at least not in the usual way. They also don't have the limitations you described of the granular ramps.

Most simply, they are the only cars with a different off-throttle timbre (to the "on-throttle" sound), and moreover that timbre is time variant in a way that samples cannot efficiently reproduce (there is a resonant effect characteristic of a long exhaust tract - the exaggerated "trumpet effect", as someone else put it). Also the on-throttle / off-throttle transitions (the sort of flip-flopping between modes it does) belie a little trick (it actually has a physical basis, of course) you can do with a specific synthesis method I have in mind.


Whilst the bigger X-cars rev to 15 000 rpm, the Junior has an 8500 rpm rev limit, remember. And increasing the rev range only reduces coverage overall, for a fixed scheme, since you're using fewer samples per octave.

The whole logarithmic pitch thing works fine for pure tones and perception of pitch only, but don't forget that the overall timbre (that is, the interrelation of harmonics), ultimately, varies linearly because of how the sounds are generated in the real world. For example, look at the frequency response of a comb filter, e.g. here.

 

[billyhas]

I just hope that PD don't think that the exhaust or engine sounds are the only things that need an overhaul.
I wish they would just sit down and listen to other games and see what's what.

Besides better exhaust and engine notes,these things need an overhaul just as much:

Turbo spools
BOV's/Wastegate chatter
Gearbox whine
Shifting effects
Overrun effects
Reverb
Cockpit filters

It's funny though. Kaz should know how a gearbox and clutch works/behaves and how it affects the sound when gears are changed. The instant upshift and downshift with no play in between sounds ridiculous in GT.

I don't know though. I don't have the confidence in PD delivering quality audio in GT without outside help. They need to hire people in the know who have had experience in creating great audio. Perhaps they should hire Nick Wiswell or Greg Hill...lol?

 

[diegorborges]

I just hope that PD don't think that the exhaust or engine sounds are the only things that need an overhaul.
I wish they would just sit down and listen to other games and see what's what.

Besides better exhaust and engine notes,these things need an overhaul just as much:

Turbo spools
BOV's/Wastegate chatter
Gearbox whine
Shifting effects
Overrun effects
Reverb
Cockpit filters

It's funny though. Kaz should know how a gearbox and clutch works/behaves and how it affects the sound when gears are changed. The instant upshift and downshift with no play in between sounds ridiculous in GT.

I don't know though. I don't have the confidence in PD delivering quality audio in GT without outside help. They need to hire people in the know who have had experience in creating great audio. Perhaps they should hire Nick Wiswell or Greg Hill...lol?

Simple things that would make a HUGE difference... the gear change sounds, for example... I love Gran Turismo, but this game below it's one of the greatest racing game masterpieces ever made. I loved it to bits. Notice how the gear change does the metallic sound of the Ferrari "grill". If you used a Corvette or a Mazda RX7, it had a muffled, soft gear change... the Lamborghini sound was metallic but still different than the Ferrari one. It was different for a lot of cars. This was 1994.

That's important. We're not talking about an absurd sound engine or overhaul. It's a simple: "if gear change, play this sound" thing.

 

[Griffith500]

Yes, it's simple, and I think PD have recorded such sounds for many cars. But the problem is (or at least was, potentially) which sounds do you temporarily silence in order to play that "shift sound"?

There are a number of different ways to handle that, and it is an active area of research for sound engines in games, and for other media (e.g. future portable sound formats). But I forget, I'm just being technical again!

 

[diegorborges]

Yes, it's simple, and I think PD have recorded such sounds for many cars. But the problem is (or at least was, potentially) which sounds do you temporarily silence in order to play that "shift sound"?

There are a number of different ways to handle that, and it is an active area of research for sound engines in games, and for other media (e.g. future portable sound formats). But I forget, I'm just being technical again!

I was just about to try to be a bit technical, saying that even a simple sound would require a channel for it, and we don't know how much resources are already allocated for that in GT6 engine... if the resources are on it's limits, we're going to have problems.

But now, your question is important. If they just add one more sound to play, there's the resources question and if they have to mute one sound to play the shift sound, which one the would mute?

Hmmm... not THAT simple.

 

[Griffith500]

@diegorborges

TDU (2) had a source grouping system developed in part by Nicolas Tsingos. He has expounded at length about it (e.g. this incomplete article, and the accompanying PDF - quite technical), and it's an interesting way to solve the problem. He currently works for Dolby, which I find ... strange.

Anyway, it's possible PD are trying something similar; maybe that's why some people are having audio problems (missing sounds, drop-outs etc.)

 

[Dude27]

TDU 2 sounds like **** IMHO... even modded TDU 1 sounds much better.

 

[Griffith500]

TDU 2 sounds like **** IMHO... even modded TDU 1 sounds much better.

Not really relevant to the way it dynamically grouped sound sources, though, is it?

(I just checked, and it was actually the first TDU game that had the clustering system - maybe the second one did, too, I don't know, although it would make sense).

 

[Prenihility]

GT6 still sounds like poop. If i change to the full titanium racing exhaust on my C5 Z06, it sounds like garbage. As do the rest, namely the C6 Vettes.

GT500 stock exhaust, poop. Aftermarket, reused one of the many exhaust sounds for V8 cars.

STIIIILL waiting on that sound update, Polyphony.

 

[Griffith500]

GT6 still sounds like poop. If i change to the full titanium racing exhaust on my C5 Z06, it sounds like garbage. As do the rest, namely the C6 Vettes.

GT500 stock exhaust, poop. Aftermarket, reused one of the many exhaust sounds for V8 cars.

STIIIILL waiting on that sound update, Polyphony.

I really have to ask why people insist on saying it's titanium. As though it actually makes a difference with the current sampling system. It's just the "racing exhaust", the same as it's always been in GT games; I'm pretty sure the semi-race is described as titanium also in GT5 and GT6.

In the real world, the use of titanium instead of steel makes little difference in like-for-like constructions, acoustically speaking (what you "gain" in Young's modulus you "lose" in density). However, what tends to happen is for "lighter" gauges of sheet and tube metal to be used because of the increased rigidity of the Ti alloys over steels (which is why titanium is so useful). That results primarily (again, acoustically speaking) in a lighter weight and hence a higher susceptibility to vibration, which leads to greater colouration of the sound from the exhaust assembly, e.g. more "rasp".

 

[Prenihility]

I really have to ask why people insist on saying it's titanium. As though it actually makes a difference with the current sampling system. It's just the "racing exhaust", the same as it's always been in GT games; I'm pretty sure the semi-race is described as titanium also in GT5 and GT6.

In the real world, the use of titanium instead of steel makes little difference in like-for-like constructions, acoustically speaking (what you "gain" in Young's modulus you "lose" in density). However, what tends to happen is for "lighter" gauges of sheet and tube metal to be used because of the increased rigidity of the Ti alloys over steels (which is why titanium is so useful). That results primarily (again, acoustically speaking) in a lighter weight and hence a higher susceptibility to vibration, which leads to greater colouration of the sound from the exhaust assembly, e.g. more "rasp".

Umm... because it says so in the game...?

I take it you didn't bother reading the descriptions? The semi-racing is described as using "some" titanium parts. While the racing exhaust is all titanium. Also, sampling system? Whaa? Listen, all i know is that all three exhausts, including stock exhausts, sound different from one another. Although... i shouldn't have to even say that. But yeah.

Also, why you bothered to go on about titanium is my guess. But... nevermind that. Just going by what the game tells us.

 

[IROC89CAMARO]

GT sounds can be better like every single racing game out there, all of them sound silly compared to real life. I stay away from exhaust upgrades and cut gear trannys in GT6 unless necessary it drowns out the sound and turns it into a buzz saw. But so far all the cars i have sound pretty good stock. I don't see them getting any better until the ps4 launch.
So don't get your hopes up and don't compare a game to real life, that's not why we play them.

 

[Imari]

So don't get your hopes up and don't compare a game to real life, that's not why we play them.

Correction: It's not why you play them.

 

[IROC89CAMARO]

Correction: It's not why you play them.

HEY it's just how it is man, don't get pissy over the truth.

 

[Imari]

HEY it's just how it is man, don't get pissy over the truth.

I will thank you not to tell me why I play the game. What is true for you may not be true for me.

 

[IROC89CAMARO]

I will thank you not to tell me why I play the game. What is true for you may not be true for me.

Why are you being so dramatic about it, play your game and ill play mine lol. If you want to race sometime let me know.

 

[NoRo]

Another issue, Kaz wants to tribute Ayrton Senna but he can't make the NSX sounds like it should ! The GT4 got very close in that matter. If Kaz can't make it better, he should simply swap the sound from GT4 to GT6 ? Ayrton would make a face-palm after hearing the "noise" that the NSX is making...

 

[Griffith500]

Umm... because it says so in the game...?

I take it you didn't bother reading the descriptions? The semi-racing is described as using "some" titanium parts. While the racing exhaust is all titanium. Also, sampling system? Whaa? Listen, all i know is that all three exhausts, including stock exhausts, sound different from one another. Although... i shouldn't have to even say that. But yeah.

Also, why you bothered to go on about titanium is my guess. But... nevermind that. Just going by what the game tells us.

More fool you I guess!

The fact that it's titanium has no bearing on performance (nor, because of the way sounds are generated and allocated, on the sound), is my point. But people like to say it anyway, which is pretty funny - all because the game "tells them so".
It's more words, too, ironically.

Don't take it to heart, it's just something that I noticed emerged with GT5 - up to then the racing exhaust was just a racing exhaust, but now it's Titanium! Pimp. As. 🤬

 

[Lambob]

I hate to come to this thread and state this, but we're going to have to wait for the next GT PS4 game to have any new sounds. Suck it up folks, there will not be sound updates to the PS3 version. All resources are being MAXED to deliver the Video at a beautiful 60fps 1080p, there is no more chance to muster resources for new sounds. I do sincerely hope GT6 gets ported.re-written to the PS4 with new sound engine. Will Kaz do this, or just wait 30 more months to get us GT7?

 

[Griffith500]

I hate to come to this thread and state this, but we're going to have to wait for the next GT PS4 game to have any new sounds. Suck it up folks, there will not be sound updates to the PS3 version. All resources are being MAXED to deliver the Video at a beautiful 60fps 1080p, there is no more chance to muster resources for new sounds. I do sincerely hope GT6 gets ported.re-written to the PS4 with new sound engine. Will Kaz do this, or just wait 30 more months to get us GT7?

There's a brand new synthesis method being exhibited on the X-cars' exhausts in GT6, on PS3, right now.

Whether that translates to all cars, or more layers for all cars (which is what is desperately needed), remains to be seen on PS3. But there is evidence that PD are working on the technical side of the layers problem, e.g. people's sound dropping out or streaming in late, as well as duplicated sound sources - that implies a dynamic and "virtual" sound source switching system is present (ish) and having the bugs ironed out of it.

The PS4 will give a bit more headroom for these progressive features, especially if the new synthesis is "dumbed down" for PS3 in any way (in terms of source detail and / or number of sources), so there should be improvements there still.

 

[Chippy569]

So this clip has some good video capture of the x2011 in gt6 (skip to 10:58):


and here it was in gt5:


GT6's sound is just the same samples as from gt5 but ran through some extreme distortion. My guess is it's running real-time DSP to achieve this, meaning the algorithm used is as cpu-light as possible, which is why it sounds kind of... low-fi. But I don't hear anything that suggests it's any different than a) any other car in the game, or b) anything other than processing on the same samples as gt5.

 

[Griffith500]

The one in GT5 was a 4 cylinder sound (i.e. an F1 V8), the one in GT6 clearly has a 3 cyl basis, most noticeable in the lower rpm range - this is why I keep suggesting you try it for yourself, if you can.

There is excessive saturation in the higher engine speeds (where the engine is guaranteed to be louder), but I still think this is to compensate for the lack of extra layers, without which the exhaust on its own would just sound weird.

I made a little demonstration, using a genuinely "lo-fi" version of a technique similar to what I think PD are doing, on page 103.

 

[diegorborges]

@diegorborges

TDU (2) had a source grouping system developed in part by Nicolas Tsingos. He has expounded at length about it (e.g. this incomplete article, and the accompanying PDF - quite technical), and it's an interesting way to solve the problem. He currently works for Dolby, which I find ... strange.

Anyway, it's possible PD are trying something similar; maybe that's why some people are having audio problems (missing sounds, drop-outs etc.)

Thanks! I will take a look for sure. :-)

 

[Prenihility]

More fool you I guess!

The fact that it's titanium has no bearing on performance (nor, because of the way sounds are generated and allocated, on the sound), is my point. But people like to say it anyway, which is pretty funny - all because the game "tells them so".
It's more words, too, ironically.

Don't take it to heart, it's just something that I noticed emerged with GT5 - up to then the racing exhaust was just a racing exhaust, but now it's Titanium! Pimp. As. 🤬

I'm not... i'm just trying to figure out why you'd say all that about something that isn't even being talked about.

And titanium exhausts are the highest tier of performance because of their reduced weight. The titanium doesn't affect exhaust flow. The construction, shape, and overall form of the exhaust do. That's obvious.

And the sounds still suck ultimately. That's the discussion at hand, here.

 

[Griffith500]

I'm not... i'm just trying to figure out why you'd say all that about something that isn't even being talked about.

And titanium exhausts are the highest tier of performance because of their reduced weight. The titanium doesn't affect exhaust flow. The construction, shape, and overall form of the exhaust do. That's obvious.

And the sounds still suck ultimately. That's the discussion at hand, here.

"highest tier" There are other, far more exotic materials for exhausts that are often banned in competition due to cost.

You mentioned titanium, despite the fact that it has no bearing on the discussion (as you admit yourself).
I was only observing that people have a tendency to say "titanium", just because the game says so. I thought I'd offer some extra info, in case it was useful.

At the very least, I've saved you some effort for the future, because you can just say "race exhaust" instead of "full titanium race exhaust" or whatever it is.

 

[HuskyGT]

More cars that sound incorrect:

- Oldsmobile Toronado. (sounds like a fake V6-ish weird sound)

- Corvette Z06 RM. (same as the Toronado)

- Viper Oreca. (Sounds like a V8. I'm surprised that they fixed the Viper GTSR Concept, but not these two racing Vipers and the old Dodge Viper GTS)

Seriously. The person who is in charge to assign the samples to each car should be fired and not let near a programing job ever again. Hundreds of us here could do a much better job.

This game is getting really tiring... I don't want to admit it, but it's getting harder to find a reason to play. The only reason I play it is to enjoy the few cars that are right, and in hope that someday there will be an update that makes the game better. Sounds are a BIG deal for me. They can also be a deal breaker.