Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

[FormulaKimball]

Yeah but in Shift 2 all cars sound as if they had a racing gearbox. They still sound quite good and properly loud.

Nice game generally.

Heheh fine with me, I only drive race cars in Shift (the original, not 2). To me, the 911 GT3 RSR and the MC12 GT1 are the most amazing engine sounds I've heard in a racing game yet, I would kick extra revs into my downshifts just to listen to them (well and to avoid rear lockups, running with ABS off). The horrible input lag always drives me back to GT5 but audio-wise, Shift is awesome.

Thing is, GT5 does have a handful of cars that sound good (by that I mean loud, meaty, properly distorted like you actually have your foot mashed to the floor). That's why it's hard to argue they were all "optimized" for some amazing sound standard that most of us don't have the gear to enjoy. I want to try a better system that has some EQ to play with, but I suspect it won't change the engine sounds any more than it could take Dave Matthews and make it sound like Slayer.

 

[drifterzzz]

i loved if they put sond like gtr2 sims games.. it will be great those sound are great exspecially jgtc honda..not nsx the new one forget the name..

 

[MSTER232]

Yeah but in Shift 2 all cars sound as if they had a racing gearbox. They still sound quite good and properly loud.

Nice game generally.

I wouldn't mind, as for some strange reason I love the transmission whine from straight cut gears 👍 .

Off-topic, but check out this video and listen to it with your eyes closed. It sounds like Shift 2 :

​

 

[mikecustom]

This is just Shocking,
Sony and PD thought they did a great job back then,

Sony thought it would be a great idea to show them off

That's how deaf they are

I'm worried now, if they don't realize that there's a problem, how are they gonna fix it?

 

[Griffith500]

^ I think that's just an honest portrayal of what would be in the game (and yet some people are adamant that PD tried to deceive us) - it's purpose was really to show the quality of the Standards, although I think it's possibly the only trailer they dubbed with the real game sounds.

I doubt that they don't realise there's a "problem" at all. I think they're well aware of how their engine sounds are in need of improvement; however, I seriously hope they're working on a leapfrog attempt, rather than a simple copy-cat act.

Heheh fine with me, I only drive race cars in Shift (the original, not 2). To me, the 911 GT3 RSR and the MC12 GT1 are the most amazing engine sounds I've heard in a racing game yet, I would kick extra revs into my downshifts just to listen to them (well and to avoid rear lockups, running with ABS off). The horrible input lag always drives me back to GT5 but audio-wise, Shift is awesome.

Thing is, GT5 does have a handful of cars that sound good (by that I mean loud, meaty, properly distorted like you actually have your foot mashed to the floor). That's why it's hard to argue they were all "optimized" for some amazing sound standard that most of us don't have the gear to enjoy. I want to try a better system that has some EQ to play with, but I suspect it won't change the engine sounds any more than it could take Dave Matthews and make it sound like Slayer.

It's more that they're not "optimised" for really low-end stuff, like you get in most TVs. Anything even one step up from that is fine. Bass reproduction hardware (or EQ tweaking to the same effect) is useful, though, because there's no massaging of the sound / samples to give the impression of bass.

 

[Eager Snake]

Exactly, that was made to showing the standards, not the engines sounds.

I was playing just a moment ago, and I just found that the hood definetly is the best view for most of the cars. You can hear at least 2 notes of sound, and depending of the revs of the engine, you can hear the explosions of the tailpipe very clearly. It would be better if those were louder, but at least are there.

I don't know if it was my setting on the HT, but it was amazing how it sounded today. I was trying the C set of the Cinema Studio EX.

I drove some DTM Cars on SPA and yes, I was pleased. Not AMAZED, but it was with no doubts at all a great experience.

 

[mikecustom]

Exactly, that was made to showing the standards, not the engines sounds.

I was playing just a moment ago, and I just found that the hood definetly is the best view for most of the cars. You can hear at least 2 notes of sound, and depending of the revs of the engine, you can hear the explosions of the tailpipe very clearly. It would be better if those were louder, but at least are there.

I don't know if it was my setting on the HT, but it was amazing how it sounded today. I was trying the C set of the Cinema Studio EX.

I drove some DTM Cars on SPA and yes, I was pleased. Not AMAZED, but it was with no doubts at all a great experience.

Absolutely not, the hood view is the most "vaccum" like, especially in race cars, that view is where the tranny sounds louder than anything else, DTM? pleased? lol, those are the worst sounds in the whole game, PD only used like 3 samples for all the DTM cars

 

[tpark103]

To be honest when I turn my surround sound on its loud, deep, and clear. I have owned a few American Classic V8's and and I'm not complaining.

 

[Griffith500]

Absolutely not, the hood view is the most "vaccum" like, especially in race cars, that view is where the tranny sounds louder than anything else, DTM? pleased? lol, those are the worst sounds in the whole game, PD only used like 3 samples for all the DTM cars

Why are you conflating the separate issues of the "vacuum"-like engine samples (i.e. the sound coming from where the engine is in the car) with the racing gearbox sound?

The former is a mixture of poor sample balancing and absent intake (etc.) sound, whilst the latter is arguably only a taste issue.

 

[Eager Snake]

tpark103, I think the same thing.
For example:

​

I was particularly SHOCKED when I heard the Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (C6) '06 in real life. It's the EXACT SAME sound.

I don't really know if he modified the car or it's just the crappy sound quality of youtube, but in my HT sounds A LOT (and I mean A LOT) more clear and robust as you may expect from a HT.
There are indeed a lots of cars that has a great sound, but they lack, in the interior view, other types of noises.

Griffith500, thanks for asking that, I was going to ask the same thing.

And mikecustom, let me ask you something:

What type of Home Theater do you use? Which ones are your settings? Do you play the game with what range of volume? Do you tweak the sound or do you use the sound purely from the game without any changes? What setting do you used so far in the GT5 Sound Menu?

I DO know that the sound in-game is not the best, but at least is an effort to be realistic, but let me explain this:

As I said in previous comments, we all know that the engine sound isn't the best one in various cars.
Well, my point of view, and you can disagree with me without a problem, is that the engine sound straight from factory is pretty damn close to the real ones.
When you start to modify the car with turbos and tailpipes the sound goes bad in some cases (terribly bad in some cases), pretty good in others.

I heard a pretty exciting sound yesterday in a DTM, and I'm going to hear that thing again today.
Every single time I listen to people complaining about it SO much, I start to think about it too, and I came always with the same, the sound isn't perfect, but is a game. It's better to enjoy the game, if you can, or then you can quit and play other sim. I think is as simple as that.

Off course that there are other games with better sounds, but almost every single game I played offers me the same exagerated sound from the cars.
But again, that's my point of view

You can enjoy that in race cars for example (even I did) and then complaining about the sounds of the race cars in GT, but for me, the sounds of street and some race cars at least in a HT, are pretty good.
Not the best ones, but very accurate when the car is straight from factory.

 

[1241Penguin]

In no way can you make a car sound more real if it has the wrong sound to begin with. For example, why does my straight-6 sound like a bad attempt at a V8?:





......


I've made an interesting observation, sometimes, the cars in real life do sound like the ones in GT5, depending on the recording equipment. For example, listen to the Subaru in-car cams:



To me, it sounds extremely like the 05 STI in GT5:



So I suppose it's simply a matter of catching the right, desired sounds.

 

[Griffith500]

Both Imprezas are using the equal length exhaust manifolds, universal in Japan and increasingly common elsewhere in the world. If you want that boxer throb, you need to look elsewhere. This is also why I think they need to offer better customisation options - if you want to slap UEL manifolds your Japanese spec Impreza to give it the throb, you should be able to (in some capacity at least.)

The M3s are a classic example of the sample misattribution problem, though.
In some ways it seems they've paid less attention to the sounds than they did with GT4, and I'd be curious to know why that might be.

 

[zedextreme8177]

^ Well, with PD, it seems that they always manage to take a few steps back for every improvement, such as the road-going Zonda trio (which I'd go as far as saying would sound completely accurate if it had the intake sound, just as with the DB9).

Same with the F2007/F10 vs in Prologue, though this is more of a gearing limitation issue than with the sounds themselves (ie: Vettel X2010 vs. the regular ones)

I've probably said this before, but the V12-engined cars seem to have been particularly neglected in the sample-accuracy aspect (despite most 3/6 cylinders having correct samples). The only accurate V12's I can think of are the Miura, DB9, Vantage, standard Zonda's, VW Nardo (W12 obviously), Countach (older variant), Mclaren F1, and the Lister Storm.

The intake sound would particularly benefit the Miura and Countach since they have a distinct growl from the carbs. However, I feel the Storm sample actually needs more exhaust noise to be accurate.

 

[FormulaKimball]

It's more that they're not "optimised" for really low-end stuff, like you get in most TVs. Anything even one step up from that is fine. Bass reproduction hardware (or EQ tweaking to the same effect) is useful, though, because there's no massaging of the sound / samples to give the impression of bass.

That's what I'm hoping for. My sound system isn't great but it is better than the tv sound for sure (and it does have a separate subwoofer). But some cars really get the most from even my basic sound system, when I drive the Chaparral 2D in particular that thing rumbles the sub like crazy, and yet you can also hear the transmission whine really loud - the combo is mesmerizing to me.

 

[1241Penguin]

Both Imprezas are using the equal length exhaust manifolds, universal in Japan and increasingly common elsewhere in the world. If you want that boxer throb, you need to look elsewhere. This is also why I think they need to offer better customisation options - if you want to slap UEL manifolds your Japanese spec Impreza to give it the throb, you should be able to (in some capacity at least.)

I know, I'm pointing out that the car sounds different depending on the recording equipment and techniques. Here's another JDM Impreza:



Most of the time, this is the noise that people look for.

 

[DeeJay574]

The M3s are a classic example of the sample misattribution problem, though.
In some ways it seems they've paid less attention to the sounds than they did with GT4, and I'd be curious to know why that might be.

Yeah, especially the M3´s are a real shame in GT5.
In real life the BMW´s M series since the E30 have a very aggressive sound also with the stock exhaust.
There is nothing left of this sound in GT5.

I mean, what´s the problem? Didn´t PD played the game on a TV and listened to this electrical-engine-style sound??

 

[1241Penguin]

I mean, what´s the problem? Didn´t PD played the game on a TV and listened to this electrical-engine-style sound??

Sometimes, it seems as if PD never played their own game at all.

 

[zedextreme8177]

To illustrate my points:

Lister Storm

Skip to 7:45



They seem to have nailed the mechanical/intake sound, but it's lacking in the crackly exhaust note (which is clearly heard during the burnout). The only other major difference is due to the gearing: extremely long first gear, with the remaining gears spread out very short, whereas this extreme is not possible with GT5's limited tuning options (same problem as with the F1 cars).

Aston Martin DB9

Skip to 0:19



Another extremely accurate sample, though this time the lack of intake noise is the culprit (the fact that the real car sounds more lumpy). You'll notice that using the H-pattern makes the gearshifts sound way more realistic

Pagani Zonda

Skip to 2:02


Again intake noise is the key difference.

Lamborghini Miura

Skip to 5:05


They seemed to have nailed this one as well, the only thing it's missing is the hated gearbox whine

 

[Griffith500]

I know, I'm pointing out that the car sounds different depending on the recording equipment and techniques. Here's another JDM Impreza:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp86-QWrEMY

Most of the time, this is the noise that people look for.

Yes, but that's the old "bugeye" STi Ver.VII, which has UEL exhausts. I said there should be the option to make the modern EL Imprezas adopt the UEL sound if you wish it to. I know that it's the coveted "scooby sound", but it's not there on all of the cars as standard anymore, so you shouldn't expect to hear it as standard on all the Imprezas in the game. Of course with the mess that modified sounds are, you probably won't hear it when you change the exhausts either (save for the odd Standard with sports exhaust) - which is something I want them to completely overhaul and introduce more flexibility for.

Yeah, especially the M3´s are a real shame in GT5.
In real life the BMW´s M series since the E30 have a very aggressive sound also with the stock exhaust.
There is nothing left of this sound in GT5.

I mean, what´s the problem? Didn´t PD played the game on a TV and listened to this electrical-engine-style sound??

Broken record here: those cars are practically defined by their intake sounds. PD don't include intake sounds (except for some low-frequency lumpy "detail" they add in for some cars, but that's not what intakes sound like unless masked by other sounds.)
This is exaggerated since it's not standard (the intake tract isn't silenced in any way) but it's the same sound that gives all the character and makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck:

 

[DeeJay574]

Broken record here: those cars are practically defined by their intake sounds. PD don't include intake sounds (except for some low-frequency lumpy "detail" they add in for some cars, but that's not what intakes sound like unless masked by other sounds.)
This is exaggerated since it's not standard (the intake tract isn't silenced in any way) but it's the same sound that gives all the character and makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck:

Ah, o.k., thank´s for the good explanation! 👍

 

[FormulaKimball]

Broken record here: those cars are practically defined by their intake sounds. PD don't include intake sounds (except for some low-frequency lumpy "detail" they add in for some cars, but that's not what intakes sound like unless masked by other sounds.)
This is exaggerated since it's not standard (the intake tract isn't silenced in any way) but it's the same sound that gives all the character and makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck

I know very little about what parts of the engine make what sounds, so this is good info. Could you point us to more reading about that? I'd love more detail about how you end up with the sound you hear, like the octave overtones (exhaust?) or even better when/why it's an octave plus a third so you get a "chord" and not just an octave effect. But besides the obvious engine sound and exhaust sound, what parts make it meaty, throaty, etc ... and something about the sounds of 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 cylinders...

 

[avens]

Not having a clue about this (lol), the bare minimum would be recording the sounds according to in-game cameras, so recording it from the inside, bonnet, third person view (intake), etc.

I don't really think they have.

 

[GTP_Fangio]

Better sounds, yes!

 

[mikecustom]

Yes, but that's the old "bugeye" STi Ver.VII, which has UEL exhausts. I said there should be the option to make the modern EL Imprezas adopt the UEL sound if you wish it to. I know that it's the coveted "scooby sound", but it's not there on all of the cars as standard anymore, so you shouldn't expect to hear it as standard on all the Imprezas in the game. Of course with the mess that modified sounds are, you probably won't hear it when you change the exhausts either (save for the odd Standard with sports exhaust) - which is something I want them to completely overhaul and introduce more flexibility for.


Broken record here: those cars are practically defined by their intake sounds. PD don't include intake sounds (except for some low-frequency lumpy "detail" they add in for some cars, but that's not what intakes sound like unless masked by other sounds.)
This is exaggerated since it's not standard (the intake tract isn't silenced in any way) but it's the same sound that gives all the character and makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck:

The e30 M3 in Shift 2 sounds exactly like the one in the video



Without the tranny whine, of course

 

[Watt2159]

Last time I check, I never use my vacuum cleaner when I'm driving my real car.

I know its so weird that they sound like that, and it only seems to do that on the cars with the
TURBO CHARGERS,
when in real life they produce no noise whatsoever.

 

[Eager Snake]

Superb research zedextreme8177 👍
Indeed, the sound in the game is pretty good actually to some cars.
I think they fail, principally, at the volume in some cases.

 

[Griffith500]

I know very little about what parts of the engine make what sounds, so this is good info. Could you point us to more reading about that? I'd love more detail about how you end up with the sound you hear, like the octave overtones (exhaust?) or even better when/why it's an octave plus a third so you get a "chord" and not just an octave effect. But besides the obvious engine sound and exhaust sound, what parts make it meaty, throaty, etc ... and something about the sounds of 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 cylinders...

I could go on for days about it, and I by no means have the full picture. I've long been a fan of car sounds, but it wasn't until relatively recently, when I tried to recreate them for myself, that I realised that I know next to nothing about how they're actually produced. I found that there's little out there which details how it all works, because, when it comes to engines, it's all about power, so sound is not really considered except for broad-band silencing. Good reading, though, would be something like Ricardo's collection of paper-cum-adverts they have listed for their WAVE software (which is an industry-standard "first-step" general engine simulator.)

As for the theory of harmonic structure of sounds based on firing orders and plumbing, look into things like the behaviour of comb filters, which essentially add a delayed version of its input to its output and cause a distinctive interference pattern in the frequencies present in the output. Choosing the delays so that you effectively get spacings that correspond to ignition (or valve) events for a given engine configuration (or groups of cylinders in a given configuration) should shed some light on how that works with an engine - the next step would be to add the delays due to the plumbing, too (which is extremely illuminating). Of course, the input sound (single cylinder) is just as important, and that has its own harmonic content depending on cams and other tuning - a gross simplification is that pulses are, in terms of their harmonic content, a bit like sawtooth waves with a low-pass filter applied according to the width of the pulse relative to its repetition period (the higher the relative width, the lower the apparent low-pass threshold - so short, sharp pulses sound harsher). On top of all of this, there are acoustic resonance effects due to the pipes and volumes in the intake and exhaust tracts, that further modify the base comb-filtered pulse sound.

The e30 M3 in Shift 2 sounds exactly like the one in the video

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhK2a4jaZR0

Without the tranny whine, of course

It sounds completely different to my ears; Shift's is mostly an over-wrought exhaust sound - I'm assuming it's not stock either.

 

[PAPPACLART]

The Zonda is nice, and pretty accurate. Good job by PD but the sound from chase cam seems to be an onboard recording as it lack any bite.

 

[Eager Snake]

Exactly PAPPACLART, but at least is there 👍
I remember a video of fanmade preview of GT5:

​

What do you guys think of it? I'm like yeeeeea... but there is definitely something wrong, but I can't figure out what exactly.

 

[zedextreme8177]

^ Probably the abrupt sound cutting due to the need to match the shifts with the video, along with the fact that the recording is relatively low-quality