Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

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No, I'm going to be blunt: your technique is broken.

The gearbox noise is because you're not matching the revs. You have to blip the throttle yourself to bring the rpm up to where it should be for the current roadspeed and intended next gear. In English it's often called heel-toe technique, heel-toeing etc. but that's not the only way to achieve it.

Watch this, notice he also overlaps the braking and throttle using the same technique, so there's no need to left-foot brake on the way into a corner. Here's an explanation of the physics, in English; I'm sure you could find something in Bulgarian somewhere, now you've seen what I'm talking about.

A simple test: roll along at a medium engine speed in a gear other than first (not reverse, either...). Put the clutch in, deselect the gear (into neutral), tap the throttle pedal ("blip") and then select the next gear down (don't do it simultaneously, as the game's throttle check will disallow the selection - sometimes I select the gear first, then blip, but that's technically wrong), finally release the clutch again.
That's very roughly what you need to be doing every time you change down, no matter what else you're doing with the car - start slow, build it up. The benefit is that the drag torque from the engine and road speed mismatch is minimised, so it doesn't try to lock up the driven wheels - in RWD cars, that contributes to stability when braking and downshifting, especially into corners; for FWD cars, that drag torque causes understeer. Diff settings play a part here, but I think it's better to have the techniques should you find your tune isn't up to the job.


The throttle bar does blip in sequential mode. Which is my point. You're not in sequential mode if you're using the H-shifter and dip the clutch; that blip must now be manually performed, as the game will stop doing it for you.

Incidentally, all this time you've been so sanctimonious about practically everything around this game, and you don't even know the basics? I mean, that's up to you, but it's a little disappointing. "Gear change sounds" indeed. :P

I'm sorry you wasted so much time writing a totally irrelevant post.

1. I damn well know what heel-toe is and this has nothing to do with the missing sound.
2. The throttle bar DOES NOT raise at all when downshifting. Have you even played the game? The game has no system that gives gas while downshifting.

3. I am not going to explain physics to you, but quickly put the momentum of the car makes the engine rev up when you switch to a lower gear until the rotational velocities of the engine and gearbox match. If there is a blip in the whine sound why there wouldn't be any from the engine?
 
I'm sorry you wasted so much time writing a totally irrelevant post.

1. I damn well know what heel-toe is and this has nothing to do with the missing sound.
2. The throttle bar DOES NOT raise at all when downshifting. Have you even played the game? The game has no system that gives gas while downshifting.

3. I am not going to explain physics to you, but quickly put the momentum of the car makes the engine rev up when you switch to a lower gear until the rotational velocities of the engine and gearbox match. If there is a blip in the whine sound why there wouldn't be any from the engine?


Huh, strange; I swear it does it for me. Maybe it's only in replays (as the recorded throttle position from the physics, rather than just a monitor for the input, as it may be when playing?)

You're still wrong, anyway. The "blip" in the engine sound, at least as far as the game is configured, can only come from the throttle being opened. If you know heel and toe, then I can't understand why you're having any issues. I guess yours is just a special case, or you're taking the piss - I'm not sure which at this point.


As posted by @letdown427 here.
 
Is it my illusion or real? I feel some V12 sound better than they used to be. Is PD sneaking around and make some unknown change? (599 is still awful with each and every mod options, sigh~ )
 
You're still wrong, anyway. The "blip" in the engine sound, at least as far as the game is configured, can only come from the throttle being opened.

You sure? There's nothing I can see stopping them from simply scripting the sound as part of the downshift process, unrelated to any physical part of the car (like blipping the actual throttle would be).

I think a lot of what sounds better in that video is that the changes are slowed down to a somewhat reasonable speed. The GT5/6 "every car comes equipped with a double-clutch gearbox" thing annoys the crap out of me. Probably whatever GT is doing with regards to blipping now would be fine, if they slowed the whole thing down just a touch.
 
You sure? There's nothing I can see stopping them from simply scripting the sound as part of the downshift process, unrelated to any physical part of the car (like blipping the actual throttle would be).

I think a lot of what sounds better in that video is that the changes are slowed down to a somewhat reasonable speed. The GT5/6 "every car comes equipped with a double-clutch gearbox" thing annoys the crap out of me. Probably whatever GT is doing with regards to blipping now would be fine, if they slowed the whole thing down just a touch.

That's what I'm getting at. The default sequential controls are "scripted" to blip the throttle on downshifts in order to match the engine speed to the road speed for the next gear down; and they always have been, in every GT game.

I mentioned in another post that it would sound better if that blip were more organic, since not even drive-by-wire throttles can do what the in-game blip does. It's far too short and sharp. That's why I said it's fun to blip even in sequential mode, as it rounds it off a touch and sounds "more real".

In H-pattern mode, if you don't touch the throttle when you change down, it'll just drag the engine up off the throttle and skid the driven wheels a bit in the process - much more lethargic, and the throttle is closed the whole time (no on-throttle "blip", just an off-throttle "slur"). I don't know why that's unexpected or considered incorrect, as it's exactly what happens in real life.


What is an issue, and is done solely for the purposes of aesthetics (complainers :sly:), in my opinion, is that the "engine" sound (the mechanically-whirry bit) goes quiet off-throttle, as well as the exhaust. It snaps back in again below 2000 rpm, mind you. The pull up on a non-rev-matched downshift would be more audible if that were not the case, like in GT5. Really, it's the reliance on the exhaust layer that is causing all the issues - we've desperately needed intake sound (great for throttle blips) for too long now.
 
Today for the first time i played with a headphone, dj grade, to try and hear better what bugged me most with the sounds.


1 no rolling tire sounds when driving foward, and a very poor transition to squealing. Bad sound for braking, it doesnt sound like cornering...
2 engine sample in some gt5 and newer cars, seems good up until 75% throttle, then it sounds rushed and eletronically accelerated. On cars such as r8, gti, scuderia, but rs6 was helpless. All cars were stock
3 weird effect like pan when you enter sand traps
turbo noises, not all cars have blowoffs, and specially newer turbo cars have very muffled turbo sound, rs6 doesnt, and it shouldnt. (Also no turbo lag effect)
4 all downshifts sound the same, faster than any case irl and uses the same sample for most of the cars above. Part of this is due to the triple plate clutch, the stock, gti seemed ok-ish
 
Today for the first time i played with a headphone, dj grade, to try and hear better what bugged me most with the sounds.


1 no rolling tire sounds when driving foward, and a very poor transition to squealing. Bad sound for braking, it doesnt sound like cornering...
2 engine sample in some gt5 and newer cars, seems good up until 75% throttle, then it sounds rushed and eletronically accelerated. On cars such as r8, gti, scuderia, but rs6 was helpless. All cars were stock
3 weird effect like pan when you enter sand traps
turbo noises, not all cars have blowoffs, and specially newer turbo cars have very muffled turbo sound, rs6 doesnt, and it shouldnt. (Also no turbo lag effect)
4 all downshifts sound the same, faster than any case irl and uses the same sample for most of the cars above. Part of this is due to the triple plate clutch, the stock, gti seemed ok-ish

1. Strange that this would be missing, it was present in GT5. Maybe it's part of the artificial "amplification" that sees hard tyres squealing in a straight line in high gears. That means the tyres never settle into "just rolling" mode, perhaps. Either that or it's masked by the engine sounds (you can stall the engine on a hill and let it roll down to find out).

2. Do you mean "engine", or exhaust? The engine is all whoosh (mechanical), which is accurate. The exhaust has a separate "whoosh layer" (it's an effect) that is realistic for most stock cars (but will sound more settled / balanced with the new sounds). Missing intake sound means no grunt to balance it all in most cases.

3. No idea! Might be interference from the same sound being played at different phases (each wheel enters the trap at different times, more or less) from different positions on the car. There's a similar "panning" effect from the X2014J in replays, due to the "twin" exhaust (being fed the same sound). One of the difficulties of positional audio is that individual sound sources need to be unique, and that's hard when you're short on memory. PD are in a good position for PS4, though.

?. Turbo sounds have always been an issue on PS3. They're often mixed in too quiet for certain cars, or their placement on the car means they're drowned out by other things in some views, but very prominent in others - that points to the complexity of the new sound engine (as with point 3). The turbo lag should come from the physics, but there is no difference between on- and off-boost states in the game's synthesis scheme (not that you'd hear it, since, without lag modeling, boost is basically analogous to throttle position), but that can be rectified with the new sounds, and new physics.

4. The downshifts sound the same because, as in my post above, the clutch and throttle work is performed by an automated robot - a script; it just matches the revs as quickly as possible, perfectly every time. There is no sample associated with it, that's something other developers like to do in the zealous pursuit of wringing every last drop of complexity from their existing synthesis schemes, subconsciously ignoring the elephant in the room, staving off their inevitable obsolescence. I jest.
You can blip the throttle yourself for some additional involvement and inject a bit of organicness over the top of the "stab".
 
Yes, tire spin can go all the way specially on tuned huayras and such, but i mean tire rolling noise, not completely overpowered tire screech and uppon heavy braking, the tires are in full contact so it should sound diferent than turning.
Engine/exhaust, if i held the throttle at 75% it sounds much more like the real thing than at 100, they are less whirring in nature and feels like tha sample was taken at that speed. At 50 some bass comes on and between there and 75 its where the real sounds lay(imho)
If you put a car in 6th gear you can see a physics attempt of turbo lag, but it follows the power figures in the dyno chart no matter how much you floor it...like you said too. This is where things may be going wrong in the phisics. i put it in () because i agree, its phisics, not sound.
And i removed my g27 clutch, i am using brake, nothing and gas, for bigger space between pedals.
I intend to track test today any influence in lap times and accel for the clutch upgrades, if negligible, they are gone.
 
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Sometimes I buy a car I push the button to drive it and the start up sound is really cool!! Gets all my hopes up then when I go use it, it sounds like someone stuck a can on the end of the tail pipe of a little four banger Honda.
 
Yes, tire spin can go all the way specially on tuned huayras and such, but i mean tire rolling noise, not completely overpowered tire screech and uppon heavy braking, the tires are in full contact so it should sound diferent than turning.
Engine/exhaust, if i held the throttle at 75% it sounds much more like the real thing than at 100, they are less whirring in nature and feels like tha sample was taken at that speed. At 50 some bass comes on and between there and 75 its where the real sounds lay(imho)
If you put a car in 6th gear you can see a physics attempt of turbo lag, but it follows the power figures in the dyno chart no matter how much you floor it...like you said too. This is where things may be going wrong in the phisics. i put it in () because i agree, its phisics, not sound.
And i removed my g27 clutch, i am using brake, nothing and gas, for bigger space between pedals.
I intend to track test today any influence in lap times and accel for the clutch upgrades, if negligible, they are gone.

The game is still limping along with the old samples. They've tried to spice it all up a bit, and have got a surprising amount of longevity from it, but I expect everything, from the mixing, to the localisation to the effects and decoration is in fact designed for the new sounds. I wonder if they can successfully apply the method on the X-cars to a stock-sounding engine; I've always assumed that step would be easy, but never bothered to try beyond a few semi-successful physically-based filtering tricks (rather than simple EQing, which is "easier" to hit a given target with, but less adjustable in a convincing way - e.g. for the player to get their hands on).

There's no doubt in my mind they've been testing models for years, and pulling the bits out that'll work on PS3 "today" (whenever that was), and leaving the rest until they can pare off some of the (computational) complexity without removing too much of the fidelity. At least, that's exactly how I work on my models (I removed some vestigial remnants of a previous, "expensive" experiment only this afternoon, and re-implemented another that was more light-weight - it's all very dynamic, this "research" lark...)

I've often wondered whether the old sound system is / was holding back the physics / tuning aspects. Turbo lag would be one area where the sounds just wouldn't respond correctly (and hence give feedback accordingly), another was the intake mods in GT5 that were removed for GT6. Then there's the drivetrain physics - does a wobbly gear sound not work well with thinly spread, short loops? The wobbles in the replays in GT5 sounded very artificial, highlighting the lo-fi sampling.

What seems to be a pattern is that aspects of the game will appear to become neglected, and then PD would overhaul the associated system entirely. Suspension, tyres (arguably), aero (arguably) and now sounds (one day "soon"). Is the drivetrain next, given there are still issues with inertia etc., and the now-combined clutch / flywheel upgrades don't seem to do much all of a sudden? Who knows, but they've probably had a few prototypes for many things on the bench that they're struggling to simplify for data-input and real-time running on a console, for who knows how long.
 
What i said in another thread is to introduce eq presets even on the ra menu, so you can switch to a more grunty, whyny , pitchy tone and they could ninja up new eq's presets to suit more and more until individual presets.
I never watch replays, unless i did a uber drift or something cool, then i'd watch the moment and move on....
Well noted, it includes a lighter flywheel too, i'll go testing again soon on more cases.
This is my biggest beef with the 12000 billion cars, even ipad apps such as real racing have better sound on a 70-90 cars game, easily justifiable on the quality vs quantity debate.
They should have gone forza way, cut everything sub par and reboot a little bit. The whole midget, minivans and other track "forbidden" cars is fun for 5 minutes or trolls but 600car-remodeling/updating-time could be better spent somewhere else.specially if each takes up to 6 months
 
What i said in another thread is to introduce eq presets even on the ra menu, so you can switch to a more grunty, whyny , pitchy tone and they could ninja up new eq's presets to suit more and more until individual presets.
I never watch replays, unless i did a uber drift or something cool, then i'd watch the moment and move on....
Well noted, it includes a lighter flywheel too, i'll go testing again soon on more cases.
This is my biggest beef with the 12000 billion cars, even ipad apps such as real racing have better sound on a 70-90 cars game, easily justifiable on the quality vs quantity debate.
They should have gone forza way, cut everything sub par and reboot a little bit. The whole midget, minivans and other track "forbidden" cars is fun for 5 minutes or trolls but 600car-remodeling/updating-time could be better spent somewhere else.specially if each takes up to 6 months

EQing should be left to your hardware, as it can do it much more efficiently (i.e., in hardware...).

Instead, I think there ought to be options for dynamic range in both the mixing step (controlling the volume difference of sources) and the output step (controlling the volume differences in the final signal) - GT only has the latter. This is analogous to "local" and "global" tone-mapping in HDRI, respectively; most "HDR" photographs are locally tone-mapped, whilst, for example, a simple brightness or contrast adjustment is a global tone-mapping, of sorts. Local techniques allow for the impression of better detail from scenes containing a larger dynamic range than you can reproduce with given hardware, whereas global techniques act as a sort of limiter, and can actually reduce the impression of detail.

I think it's fruitless to start dictating which cars should be in the game. They posted the car list in advance of release for a reason. As for the sounds, I think you should hold judgement on which way they should have gone (Forza or otherwise) until you've had a chance to hear the way they have actually gone already.
 
Cool stuff, i hang around at a friends music studio, and know to a point what you are saying.
Last part is just a little rant and one of those "if i was kaz" scenarios.... Not saying they should copy forza, its just about the better use of time to develop things up to their desing par vs adapting old cars to fit the new game engine.
Feels like from the 6 months they spend developing a car, only a day is spent on the sounds.
 
Sometimes I buy a car I push the button to drive it and the start up sound is really cool!! Gets all my hopes up then when I go use it, it sounds like someone stuck a can on the end of the tail pipe of a little four banger Honda.
Same in GT5, all the startup sounds were good, but then you drove them and you suddenly realize the startup should have sounded more like this :D :

 
So i have a question, We were told sounds would be updated right, So have they been updated or are they still working on it? Its kind of crazy to buy a retail game then 2 months later still not have the planned sounds for the game if thats what they are doing, Its bad either as the sounds are really stopping me from playing this, I've played it about once a week because the sounds do my nut in whilst i've played previous gt's every day or so for months, GT6 has put me of this franchise pretty much for good with all its quirks.
 
I don't know if it's some kind of bug, but the Ford RS200 rally car should be a snarling and popping over fueling group B beast, and it sounds like a damn Prius. Just me?
 
I can't see a patch coming to change every car sound in the game to be realistic, that would be a huge patch and a **** ton of work for 1200+ cars, i think kaz just said that for everyone to get off his ******* back.
 
I don't know if it's some kind of bug, but the Ford RS200 rally car should be a snarling and popping over fueling group B beast, and it sounds like a damn Prius. Just me?
A bug lol, No its just PD

I can't see a patch coming to change every car sound in the game to be realistic, that would be a huge patch and a **** ton of work for 1200+ cars, i think kaz just said that for everyone to get off his ******* back.
I agree its not realistic, But if he said that to get people of his back then he's a conman because he duped many of us, I also dont remember gt5 sounds being this annoying, Its like Kaz said right they keep banging on about sound im gonna make them even more of a joke
 
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A bug lol, No its just PD


I agree its not realistic, But if he said that to get people of his back then he's a conman because he duped many of us, I also dont remember gt5 sounds being this annoying, Its like they Kaz said right they keep banging n about sound im gonna make them even more of a joke
I do think there will be a patch maybe but only for a certain cars ect. I hope PD bust my ass for saying that.
 
They need help on modified exhaust and engine tuning sound, they are horrible.
That's what PD should do make every modified exhaust sound badass, raspy grunty not sounding like it came out of a blender on high. How Is pd supposed to pull that off? I'm thinking realistically? It's not hard to get the sounds, it's hard to get them into there digital engine. Sounds are 1997 on some cars it's vibe killing bad. It's so bad on some cars i just turn my ps3 off. Forza has the best sounds, but GT6 has better physics. But i want GT6 to have both, and if we haven't seen an effort yet i don't think we will.
 
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