Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

[Griffith500]

Griffith,

I figured I should ask you...

Is the Bathurst GT6 trailer indicative of the direction PD is going regarding sounds? In other words, will the sounds in the trailer (especially the downshift in the in-car view) be the sounds found in future iterations of GT (sound update for GT6 or GT7 for PS4)? So with the new type of method in sound reproduction, can it feasibly reach that kind of fidelity?

I mean the trailer is evidence that PD knows what/how cars should sound like! Alot of people make assumptions that Kaz is deaf and has no clue that the sounds are not too good in its current state.

Well, I think that trailer is just dubbed from chopped up recordings, same as all the others (they just did a better job with that one). It's not really indicative of any real-time resynthesis, in that respect, although it'd be analogous to a "target render" - something to work towards, as an overall concept.

It's very hard to convey what to expect, even if I knew exactly what they were doing; but the X-cars are the only reference point at this time. I think they're not the complete model, missing extra layers, but that might not necessarily be true. I hope the saturation can be toned down in that case.

The level of fidelity should be able to be on par with the average racing game today, with the right skills in the dev team. Just how accurate they get it is dependent on what layers they use and how much processing they can afford on those layers.

Including intake and exhaust will be a marked improvement over the current sounds, and what will be most impressive (i.e. the thing that will make the sounds notable, not "the best ever") in my opinion, is the fine variation in the sounds, which will make the cars very "talkative" in terms of your inputs and the physics interactions. But that's quite subtle, probably hard to pin down - people are nonetheless already saying that about the X-cars.

Anyway, I'm astounded that they can get 16 of those exhausts working in the game when I can barely keep one from saturating a single core on my PC!
EDIT: Actually, I have 16, too, technically. Still, I can't run a game at the same time on that core...

 

[IneedSchool]

Well, I think that trailer is just dubbed from chopped up recordings, same as all the others (they just did a better job with that one). It's not really indicative of any real-time resynthesis, in that respect, although it'd be analogous to a "target render" - something to work towards, as an overall concept.

It's very hard to convey what to expect, even if I knew exactly what they were doing; but the X-cars are the only reference point at this time. I think they're not the complete model, missing extra layers, but that might not necessarily be true. I hope the saturation can be toned down in that case.

The level of fidelity should be able to be on par with the average racing game today, with the right skills in the dev team. Just how accurate they get it is dependent on what layers they use and how much processing they can afford on those layers.

Including intake and exhaust will be a marked improvement over the current sounds, and what will be most impressive (i.e. the thing that will make the sounds notable, not "the best ever") in my opinion, is the fine variation in the sounds, which will make the cars very "talkative" in terms of your inputs and the physics interactions. But that's quite subtle, probably hard to pin down - people are nonetheless already saying that about the X-cars.

Anyway, I'm astounded that they can get 16 of those exhausts working in the game when I can barely keep one from saturating a single core on my PC!
EDIT: Actually, I have 16, too, technically. Still, I can't run a game at the same time on that core...

Wow dude you type A LOT in just one comment.

 

[Zelalem]

Seriously, where most other games have good sounds, they are VERY poor on content (see Asseto Corsa, in the right path but poor content right now), pCars (only racing cars, they need more 100 cars at least to call it decent)... and the usual competitor, well, a VW Fox doesn't sound like that unless you add a CAI and a sports air filter. The sounds are great, but way exagerated.

Content has something to do with the budget for the game. Would you agree that PD has more money available for their games? I would prefer GT with 400 cars, if it means the sounds are great. Quality is more important.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Content has something to do with the budget for the game. Would you agree that PD has more money available for their games? I would prefer GT with 400 cars, if it means the sounds are great. Quality is more important.

The car set has been built cumulatively and doesn't represent a development investment for just one game. It's also possible that they weren't all developed for GT alone. Overall though I agree, I'd prefer half the number of cars (or a third as you suggest) if the overall sound quality was higher.

That said the PS3 is already being pushed at 300fps, I'm not sure how much resource is left to add the missing bass track.

 

[phil_75]

The car set has been built cumulatively and doesn't represent a development investment for just one game. It's also possible that they weren't all developed for GT alone. Overall though I agree, I'd prefer half the number of cars (or a third as you suggest) if the overall sound quality was higher.

That said the PS3 is already being pushed at 300fps, I'm not sure how much resource is left to add the missing bass track.

300fps???

 

[Kamuifanboy]

I was under the impression that GT6 was running at 60FPS like GT5 was. I don't know for sure though.

My super computer can't even run iRacing on 300fps.

 

[phil_75]

I was under the impression that GT6 was running at 60FPS like GT5 was. I don't know for sure though.

My super computer can't even run iRacing on 300fps.

60fps on an empty track with no weather.

 

[King1982]

60fps on an empty track with no weather.

...If you're lucky..

 

[phil_75]

...If you're lucky..

Downhill with the wind behind you!

 

[TenEightyOne]

I was under the impression that GT6 was running at 60FPS like GT5 was. I don't know for sure though.

My super computer can't even run iRacing on 300fps.

I meant the fps that the actual game ran at rather than the GFX output. Physics at 60fps would be very poo.

And, as @phil_75 and others have pointed out, even 60fps is a very optimistic estimate for the graphics. To get that you'd have to play on the edge of a black hole.

 

[Imari]

I meant the fps that the actual game ran at rather than the GFX output. Physics at 60fps would be very poo.

And, as @phil_75 and others have pointed out, even 60fps is a very optimistic estimate for the graphics. To get that you'd have to play on the edge of a black hole.

You mean the physics tick rate. "FPS" is used only for graphical output, it's short for frames per second. A frame is only graphical. Tick rate is usually in Hertz (Hz, reciprocal seconds).

And I do wonder about the effects of the physics rate varying. It's not something that's really testable, as far as I'm aware, unlike frame rate where you can see the effects on PC by locking it. Physics tick rate is something that seems like it should make a difference, but who knows? Especially if you're on really smooth tracks. I'd be a little surprised if someone told me they couldn't notice the difference between 300Hz and 60Hz, but not massively so.

 

[Scaff]

Can we get back on topic please.

 

[JK1977]

i saw this video yesterday and i wish GT6 has this sound(i played with the car in GT6 and i feel sick about the GT6 FXX
please give us this Kaz!!!!

 

[phil_75]

i saw this video yesterday and i wish GT6 has this sound(i played with the car in GT6 and i feel sick about the GT6 FXX
please give us this Kaz!!!!

This was the car i was most looking forward to.
I was so excited when i got the 2 million credits and bought it.
Went straight to Bathurst turned off TC, pressed start and...... MASSIVE ANTI CLIMAX!!!
The whole car is spoilt by the ridiculous sound.
They don't even try to match it with something resembling the real sound.

How could they get it sooooo wrong?

Do they have a hat where they pick out which sample will go with what?

Oh well i thought, on to the other car i was excited about - the BMW Z4 GT3...... They can't get this wrong surely, in the trailers it sounded great?

Oh how wrong i was!

They both sound as exciting and inviting as a cold museum.

 

[Griffith500]

You mean the physics tick rate. "FPS" is used only for graphical output, it's short for frames per second. A frame is only graphical. Tick rate is usually in Hertz (Hz, reciprocal seconds).

And I do wonder about the effects of the physics rate varying. It's not something that's really testable, as far as I'm aware, unlike frame rate where you can see the effects on PC by locking it. Physics tick rate is something that seems like it should make a difference, but who knows? Especially if you're on really smooth tracks. I'd be a little surprised if someone told me they couldn't notice the difference between 300Hz and 60Hz, but not massively so.

I'm just being a pedant, really, but you can have physics "frames" - at least, people do call them that. Not sure if that's borrowed by analogy to film, or what. The same is true of sounds, but the analogy is more direct, since the sound was etched into the frame in a separate section outside of the picture.

Physics tick rate is very important: it determines twice the maximum oscillation frequency that can be represented in the game. If anything has any side-effect, e.g. as an RMS reduction in some reactive force etc. by oscillating, then that is better modeled as an oscillation than a scaled constant (because oscillations have magnitude and phase, and phase interactions are crucial in modeling transient response in many dynamic systems; plus changes in wave shape will change the RMS "scaling"). Tyres are a great example: LFS "runs" its tyres at well over 1 kHz (the base physics sync rate).


To keep this on topic, the same is true of sound. But there are very few developers who have actually used a sensible "tick rate" for the audio engine - because most audio engines are event based, and "events" don't really happen very fast for us humans, i.e. always much slower than 100 Hz (plus, practically everyone uses middleware, which are large, lethargic entities, for which conservatism in their fundamental design is preferable, for obvious reasons).

iRacing is one game that makes sure it updates the sound at a decent rate, a trait it inherited from GPL from over 15 years ago. That's why all the little wobbles etc. in the drivetrain modeling shine through beautifully, with such amazing subtlety. LFS is another game that has a sensible sound engine tick rate (probably 1 kHz), that lends its funky, lo-fi synth a bit more attitude and responsiveness, and distances it further from comparison to other, more "usual" sound engines.


Most games run the sound engine at the graphics framerate, which is absurd: the fastest variation you can capture is at 30 Hz at best (for 60 fps) on a console. That's already low enough to hear aliasing in the control, especially when those controls change rapidly, as they do for the streamed sounds (engine sample playback) in racing games. That's why the PS3 versions of GT have such good Doppler effects, and that advantage is even more apparent with the new sounds (e.g. throttle blips with the X-cars).

 

[TenEightyOne]

You mean the physics tick rate. "FPS" is used only for graphical output, it's short for frames per second. A frame is only graphical. Tick rate is usually in Hertz (Hz, reciprocal seconds).

A frame can also be any completed cycle of logic with or without an equivalent graphical representation...so I beg to differ. It's my job

EDIT: Just saw @Griffith500 's reply, he put it so much more eloquently than I could have

I do think that GT7 will be the game where PD finally get resources for the game they started designing nearly 20 years ago. It's the most optimistic way of looking at it

 

[CarreraGT]

So I just bought the Diable GT2 and it sounds exactly the same as both the Holden Monaro and Ferrari F40 with sports exhaust. Seriously PD?

It doesn't even sound like a v12!

 

[LS Chiou]

I used to think the tire squeal is overly pronounced, but it change my mind after I try 0 ABS.

Without driving assistance, tire sounds are very good indicator for the conditions of grip. Together with FFB on wheel, they give me very good instant information of how the car is doing. In this regard, GT6 does better than before.

 

[fet_thunderdome]

I played assetto corsa and I have to really tell that going back to gt6 audio is really a pain. AC gives you the feeling of the power as you flat out the throttle, gives you a nice shifting feel and a pure sense of danger when you lock up tires. Is something GT probably will never have. And it really makes the difference.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

0:33 Sound Simulation
1:51 Sound Designers

The lazies people at Polyphony Digital

 

[Griffith500]

0:33 Sound Simulation
1:51 Sound Designers

The lazies people at Polyphony Digital

Ha. Based on work you haven't even heard yet.

 

[shirakawaa]

Did you?

 

[Griffith500]

Did you?

Of course not.

But the implication being made is that there are 12 or so people credited in a game released in 2013 for work done mostly between 1997 and 2004. The new sounds are a totally different format, one that we've not heard; not even, I'd wager, in the Red Bull cars at this point (which are a totally different format nonetheless).

 

[fet_thunderdome]

Ha. Based on work you haven't even heard yet.

Based on what we actually hear. No red bull car match the quality of nowadays sounds. They're just slightly better than average GT sounds.

 

[Rash-182]

Yeah..people should really get over that Red Bull and stop pretending, like it´s anything special or remarkable. Like i´ve said earlier..if this is the best they can or will do in the future, then it will be really sad. Imagine if they implement theese in GT7 and will be really happy with them..we would be stuck with half assed sounds again for another 10+ years

 

[JK1977]

The ps3 has enough hardware power for really good sound , or maybe they should change the sound ...gallardo sound on R8 Lms so...or redbull x sound on fxx

 

[Griffith500]

Based on what we actually hear. No red bull car match the quality of nowadays sounds. They're just slightly better than average GT sounds.

Any improvement is surely welcome at this stage.

Yeah..people should really get over that Red Bull and stop pretending, like it´s anything special or remarkable. Like i´ve said earlier..if this is the best they can or will do in the future, then it will be really sad. Imagine if they implement theese in GT7 and will be really happy with them..we would be stuck with half assed sounds again for another 10+ years

They are remarkable in that they're not made in the same way as car sounds normally are in games. The rest of the cars in the game use the "traditional" method. GT's future is signposted by the techniques used on the X-cars, not necessarily their current aesthetic (which is governed by a mixture of missing layers and specific tuning to compensate for those missing layers, in my opinion - it is not inherent to the technique, as I've demonstrated.)

 

[shirakawaa]

Why aren't recently released free DLC cars using this new method, though? Putting the X cars aside. It might be understandable for the BMW M4 or the Hudson, but what about the VGT and FT-1 Concept, which are almost as fictional as the X ones?

 

[Griffith500]

Why aren't recently released free DLC cars using this new method, though? Putting the X cars aside. It might be understandable for the BMW M4 or the Hudson, but what about the VGT and FT-1 Concept, which are almost as fictional as the X ones?

If my theory that the X-cars are using bespoke tunings of the new exhaust synth is correct, then that implies PD had to create those tunings separately from the ones used in the "complete system" they are still trying to optimise (I'm thinking at least intake and exhaust, finally.)

That means these new cars have their own "profiles" already in the complete, new system, but PD haven't taken the time to try to tune the incomplete model (as used by the X-cars) to match the sound of the cars in the complete model. Instead they've taken a few minutes to find a complete "profile" for the old sampling system, presumably already created for another car some years ago.

Another reason they wouldn't try to tune the cars' sounds with only the exhaust layer is that they simply won't sound right. For the X-cars you can get away with it because the exhaust is expected to be the loudest part (they still have to tune it unrealistically to compensate for missing layers), but even for something like the FT-1, it just isn't going to work - it'll sound like a vacuum cleaner still, or like a race-car, or thin and flat if you try to occupy the middle ground (especially because the audio control and mixing isn't properly setup for the new synth method yet). No improvement, not worth the effort.

We have to wait for the update to be sure.

 

[Maxx2013]

To be honest the Red Bulls just sound like they have a lot of distortion on them.