- 605
Not trying to be a douche here, but you say placeholder. That implies that the sounds will be changed and get an actual update for GT6 and not take until GT7 to be released. Is that your opinion as it stands today? Just curious.
Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!
- Thread starter steamcat
- 4,667 comments
- 347,732 views
Not trying to be a douche here, but you say placeholder. That implies that the sounds will be changed and get an actual update for GT6 and not take until GT7 to be released. Is that your opinion as it stands today? Just curious.
- 9,232
- Solid Gone
- MeanElf
Shouldn't that be: 'not in the same race stadium'
Granted the sounds are not the same as real life, but that wasn't really the point under discussion between us; especially as the game has not yet had it's updated sounds put into place - the observation that PS2 sounds are in GT6 was what I was making a reference to...
That comparison vid though, how sure are you that it hasn't been 'tweaked' to prove a point? Those GT cars sounded awfully quiet...almost as if the volume was dropped down a few notches just before the car passed. I mean, you hear them approaching,m then mysteriously they go quieter. In my own replays, I've heard them far louder - just a point worth considering.
As far as we know, that is the intention, though it could equally be GT7 before PD are happy enough with them...even so, the term 'placeholder' can still be used, I think.
- 8,704
Well, and I'm not being funny here either, it's been a long-standing landmark on the horizon, ever since the Silverstone event last May. Jordan's E3 interview says it best, here - Kaz calls the current sounds "just ... sound effects".
On top of that, there are anecdotal reports (mostly my own, just as fair warning) that the X-cars are using a "completely different way of generating sounds" already, from the way the sound varies with interaction. That implies at least an element of truth to what has been said (that the sounds exist, PD has been working on them), and my bet is that the update will come for GT6.
Until E3 last year, I thought it would only be possible on PS4 (GT5 P had me convinced already that such improvements were in development, but that was based on my interpretations of what I was hearing then).
Finally, I do not consider the X-cars to be representative of what the new method can actually do (e.g. here): Kaz said "high quality". I say expect adequacy, anything more will be a bonus.
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- 717
They should just implement some sort of sound editor in game like the Live for Speed developers did and let the community experiment while they crack on with the new sound engine.
Gran Turismo 6 sounds:
Somebody needs to figure out how to activate the debug menu via button command or CFW - there must be some options on there.
Gran Turismo 6 sounds:
Somebody needs to figure out how to activate the debug menu via button command or CFW - there must be some options on there.
- 8,704
None of that is likely to have any specific bearing on the new sounds, and twiddling with those exposed parameters is not really going to deliver anything exciting when there are simply entire layers missing from the game as-is.
It'd be interesting to dig around the cars themselves, try to dereference where the sounds are coming from and see what differences there are in the definitions for the X-cars and all the others. But that's really involved, and not likely to bear fruit anyway.
- 4,022
- Cincinnati, OH
Shouldn't that be: 'not in the same race stadium'
Granted the sounds are not the same as real life, but that wasn't really the point under discussion between us; especially as the game has not yet had it's updated sounds put into place - the observation that PS2 sounds are in GT6 was what I was making a reference to...
That comparison vid though, how sure are you that it hasn't been 'tweaked' to prove a point? Those GT cars sounded awfully quiet...almost as if the volume was dropped down a few notches just before the car passed. I mean, you hear them approaching,m then mysteriously they go quieter. In my own replays, I've heard them far louder - just a point worth considering
I belive that Griffith mentioned there was still GT4 sounds in GT5 and GT6 somewhere in this thread. Could be my immagination but, I swear I remember reading that a month ago in this thread.
The video is my own. As well as the sound recordings are my own as well. The standing positions of both in game and recording are at the same area at Fuji Speedway. I have done no sound adjusting. Just put the raw videos and sounds together.
*edit* Though I did adjust volume levels when I put the Z4 GT3 overlap clip together. Otherwise GT6 is not able to be heard.
I don't mean to be rude to you and Griffith as you have both been fighting valiently. Griffith has since this thread started. But, when are you two going to realise the sounds are just flat out bad. The amount of posts with complaints about sounds way out numbers that of the posts saying that they are ok or good. Griffith has put some awesome posts about the technical side of things showing that actually all of the sounds in other games are "bad" as well. But, at the end of the day, the game is attempting to simulate a driving experience. Sound is extremely important to the experience of driving. I think many would agree with that. Despite other games lacking the technical "Good" sounds, what they get right is that immersion of feeling like you are driving. Assetto Corsa, iRacing, Forza, Codemasters F1 Series, and many more do a much better job of giving you that experience of driving with it's sounds despite not technically being the better sound bite.
Nothing against either of you. I like having discussion, it's a lot of fun amd you can usually learn a lot like I have about sounds in games from Griffith.
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- 9,232
- Solid Gone
- MeanElf
I appreciate that, so no worries - believe it or not, I also think that the sounds could be better, but am willing to hear PD out as it were - give them the chance to get their updates ready and in place first. It might take until GT7 before they get more breadth in the sound - with more processing capacity options available to them on the PS4, I would expect them to be delivering the definitive GT sound, something which could match most PC games.
In the meantime I'm happy enough knowing that the sound issue is being worked on.
- 858
- United Kingdom
This car sounds decent I guess.
- 8,704
Dude, I've never said the current sounds aren't bad. And my "technical" posts are intended to point to the future of sounds in games in general. Please do not misinterpret my posts and misunderstand my motivations.
There is no dichotomy between "technical" and "good", they are separate scales. And the reason why most other games sound better than GT is because, technically, they have the better "sound bites" - they are longer and more in number across the rev range.
The car engine / exhaust sounds in GT6 at the moment are the same scheme (broadly; the sources have been separated, plus a few tweaks and embellishments) as what was in GT2, not just GT4. "Technical", the samples ain't.
The X-cars, on the other hand, regardless of their aesthetic effect for the time being, are a wholly different matter, technically speaking (which should be considered as separate from any aesthetic consideration anyway).
- 858
- United Kingdom
Oh cool I've never seen this guy say dude before.
- 1,211
- Earth
- TheLordSnowden
- LordSnowden
I heard they improved the doppler effect and increased the sound of other cars... Or perhaps this is only in the X challenge?
If so, that's an improvement. Though GT sounds are inferior across the board, the exhaust notes are clearly the best of them but can only be heard from brains the car.
In real racing, you would be surprised how little you hear your own motor. Yes it's there and load but when along side or just behind another car the sound can be so defining that you're brain feels like slamming against your skull.
So load in fact that I don't pay attention to brake lights when planning an overtake, I listen for lift as many drivers aren't very quick from lift to break... If they lift even one second before me I dive to the inside and I know they hear me still on the gas and this puts them into self preservation mode, beyond defensive. Racing has a massive phycological component and it's also how we learn from others styles.
Most of the time in a race is spent calculating, observing, listening, and planning. Most passing is planned after you have the data to make the decision. Myself personally, I find their weakest corner, I decide 1-2 laps in advance where I'm going to make my move, and I 'set him up' by knowing where he is weaker and threaten his weakness and making my intentions clear by putting my nose in on other corners and filling his mirror up while trailing right on his bumper.
And the guy behind me? Is doing the exact same thing to me... But his is looking for me to make a mistake passing to take advantage of passing us both in a single move. A very common circumstance as passing causes both cars to slow as neither is on the optimum line when both are committed.
Oh I digress but situational audio is a huge part of racing and I would welcome higher volumes from the surrounding cars... And I like to talk about racing...
If so, that's an improvement. Though GT sounds are inferior across the board, the exhaust notes are clearly the best of them but can only be heard from brains the car.
In real racing, you would be surprised how little you hear your own motor. Yes it's there and load but when along side or just behind another car the sound can be so defining that you're brain feels like slamming against your skull.
So load in fact that I don't pay attention to brake lights when planning an overtake, I listen for lift as many drivers aren't very quick from lift to break... If they lift even one second before me I dive to the inside and I know they hear me still on the gas and this puts them into self preservation mode, beyond defensive. Racing has a massive phycological component and it's also how we learn from others styles.
Most of the time in a race is spent calculating, observing, listening, and planning. Most passing is planned after you have the data to make the decision. Myself personally, I find their weakest corner, I decide 1-2 laps in advance where I'm going to make my move, and I 'set him up' by knowing where he is weaker and threaten his weakness and making my intentions clear by putting my nose in on other corners and filling his mirror up while trailing right on his bumper.
And the guy behind me? Is doing the exact same thing to me... But his is looking for me to make a mistake passing to take advantage of passing us both in a single move. A very common circumstance as passing causes both cars to slow as neither is on the optimum line when both are committed.
Oh I digress but situational audio is a huge part of racing and I would welcome higher volumes from the surrounding cars... And I like to talk about racing...
- 3,070
- Norway
There are enough decent/authentic sounding samples in GT6, functioning at a satisfactory level, within the exsisting system framework to please the vast majority of the car crazy audiophiles in here if they were assigned by competent people.
The fact of the matter is; engine sound has never been a priority for PD.
The current overall state of GT6 (🤬), combined with the fact that GT7 development is well underway, leads me to conclude that any major sound updates will not be coming to GT6, regardless of what has been suggested by Kaz.
The fact of the matter is; engine sound has never been a priority for PD.
The current overall state of GT6 (🤬), combined with the fact that GT7 development is well underway, leads me to conclude that any major sound updates will not be coming to GT6, regardless of what has been suggested by Kaz.
- 8,704
I'll address that first sentence, well, first.
"There are enough decent / authentic sounding samples"; the words "enough", "decent" and "authentic" are unreliable in this context. What I will say is that the level of duplication and sharing indicates there aren't "enough", especially in the "tuned" cases. Additionally, there is no intake sound in the game at all; that is neither decent nor authentic for practically every car.
"functioning at a satisfactory level, within the exsisting system framework"; not really when putting a "race" exhaust on an otherwise stock car makes it sound like an outright racing car. That is incorrect behaviour, and the "system" governing sound changes will always be hamstrung by a limited sample database, as GT has increasingly had. Also, no intake applies here, too, plus the weird volume scaling on the exhaust to account for on and off throttle variation (which comes from the intake, primarily). The existing framework puts too much emphasis on exhaust sounds, which just aren't up to the task in real life - why would they be in a game?
"please the vast majority of the car crazy audiophiles"; imagination is too large a factor in these discussions for the word audiophile to be used to cover the majority of people who comment in this thread, let alone play the game. There is little sense in trying to ape people's expectations of a traditional sampler in racing games when they are not actually representative of the real sounds made by cars (suspension of disbelief is more effective on our ears than our eyes), except when the car is doing the exact same thing in the game as it was in the recording - which is almost guaranteed to never happen.
All of that means it is pointless to limp along with the existing framework any longer; it is dead and should be buried. Other games should follow suit where appropriate (once the potential is understood).
Now, there is an existing issue with sample allocation that I agree is not acceptable. However, rather than look at that one specific thing and then assume PD don't care about sounds, I prefer to look at the whole picture and realise that the existing sound framework only is not a priority. It's a subtle but very important distinction.
Kaz has not suggested they are working on new sounds, and he has not suggested they will not make it into GT6 - he said they are working on them, and have been for some time. However, he has not flat-out stated they will definitely be in, or not, either. Despite that, all of the doubt so far was whether they would make a specific date: the sixth of December last year, which to be honest was more than a suggestion (that it wouldn't) by my interpretation. That doesn't mean it won't ever come to PS3; they are making progress, the sound drop outs have stopped for me, which is a promising sign they've got a stream switching thingy working, as they'd need to in order to add more layers (like intake, turbo, brakes etc.)
The irony is that the GT7 sounds are probably more or less complete, as there are fewer restrictions on performance that mean aspects of the new sounds can be implemented as-is (that is, as they were designed on the prototyping bench), rather than trying to snip the edges off the processes, spoon out its insides and shoehorn it all into the PS3's system in real time.
Also, once again, the X-cars are already using the new sounds: it's exhaust only for now, like the "current" sounds are (as samples), but I've noticed that all the X-cars actually use the same exhaust...
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Not trying to avoid the main discussion here, but does anybody realized that the new trailer, has for the very first time (or at least that I can remember) the ACTUAL sounds of the game?
Isn't that a very good sign of things to come in some way?
Isn't that a very good sign of things to come in some way?
- 3,070
- Norway
The vast majority has lower standards than you @Griffith500
That first sentence came out a little bit wrong.
It was meant to highligh the fact that PD ARE capable of giving us decent/authentic sounding engines on the PS3, as opposed to flatplane Corvettes, a V6 SLS AMG GT3, V10 Aventadors, straight six Audi S1's etc etc.
If they had been able to use that level of competance consistently I suspect this wouldn't be the 3555th post in this thread.
That first sentence came out a little bit wrong.
It was meant to highligh the fact that PD ARE capable of giving us decent/authentic sounding engines on the PS3, as opposed to flatplane Corvettes, a V6 SLS AMG GT3, V10 Aventadors, straight six Audi S1's etc etc.
If they had been able to use that level of competance consistently I suspect this wouldn't be the 3555th post in this thread.
- 858
- United Kingdom
Things are changing. The basement dwelling people who complained about the sounds will finally get the sounds they asked for.
- 8,704
Whilst that is true, and I've agreed already that it is a major issue (I personally attribute to non-audio staff handling what would be to them "legacy" assets and systems), it doesn't change the fact that, despite that, the largest flaw with the sounds in this game is the omission of key sources. Because even if the allocation was 100% accurate, cars like the R8, a DC2R or even an Audi S1 just wouldn't sound right with only exhaust and that whizzy engine sound - it needs intake, as the absolute minimum necessary addition.
Take Forza: the sounds are, in recent times (oh how I miss FM2's more authentic approach), artistically mixed to match a recollection of the car, combined with a self-imposed limitation of that "impression" translating to "reproduction" (in the listener's brain, crucially) on awful speakers. What inevitably happens there is the intake (always meaty) is mixed prominently for all cars, and a bit of multi-band distortion is applied to trick brains.
I'm saying the thing that makes Forza's sounds so good (depending on your taste) doesn't even exist in GT's sound model to date. Additionally, Forza abandoned sound modifications after FM2, too, because there aren't enough samples to cover it properly.
It's not about my standards being "high", or whatever other scapegoats people want to throw this way, the issue just isn't as simple as everyone likes to make out.
The bottom line, for me, is this:
In order for GT to have more sources (i.e. more detail, more data) - which is its major flaw right now, irrespective of sample allocation issues - I was already preaching back in the Prologue days that PD need to exchange loading and storing that detail in a "cache" (i.e. RAM) for a system that dynamically and procedurally generates it on the fly (by using more processing power instead - they confidently claimed they had SPU headroom some years ago.)
The X-cars are, to my ears, doing exactly that.
- 3,070
- Norway
I agree with you of course, and I do understand.
And I'm not saying all cars could be made to sound absolutely right, but some would sound a lot better.
Take the R8: The B6 S4 sounds more like an R8 4,2 than the R8 4,2 does... see my point.
Anyway, do you really think we'll recieve a major overhaul of the engine sounds ala the V6 Red Bull cars for a significant amount of cars?
- 8,704
I'll be honest, the sample allocation issue has frustrated me about as much as the lack of intake sound has. But objectively speaking, without intake sound, correct allocation would not alleviate my overall level of frustration (it seems to swell to fit any void it encounters).
I personally believe the new sounds have already been made, car-to-car (like models and textures awaiting a new graphics engine); what's holding things back is getting multiple layers working in real time for a full pack of cars with dynamic viewpoints and other mixing difficulties (including relativistic issues from the time-delay modeling, those nutters), I think.
Not only do I think all cars will eventually get sounds generated the same way the X-cars are, but I also believe the X-cars' sounds are placeholders of their own, in light of the still-absent extra layers (and the single, same exhaust they all use - including the Junior).
If those extra layers don't come, I think it'll be hard for PD to please everyone with the new sounds (and it'll be a lot of work to re-factor them anyway to account for it) because they'll just be too "colourful", as the X-cars clearly are themselves. They may as well have just waited until the PS4. That's why I think they're being so dogged about getting it to work on PS3, it must have been something they've been aiming for for some time.
But, remaining healthily skeptical of the eventual quality they achieve with the new sounds is understandable, certainly for PS3. Besides, I'm just some crazy guy who's worked on these kinds of issues in his spare time, and am probably being overly idealistic about getting this tech working in games (because its flexibility is awesome).
- 3,070
- Norway
Tell me about it. Imagine an M3 CSL or a McLaren F1 with intake in Gran Turismo!
Speaking of BMW, have you heard the Active Sound Design in the M6 Grand Coupe?
They pulled a "PD" and gave it a V10 "sample"
- 8,704
Tell me about it. Imagine an M3 CSL or a McLaren F1 with intake in Gran Turismo!
Speaking of BMW, have you heard the Active Sound Design in the M6 Grand Coupe?
They pulled a "PD" and gave it a V10 "sample"
Yeah, people were saying the same thing about the F10 M5. In BMW's defence, an uneven-firing V10 has pretty much the same intervals in the intake sound as a cross-plane V8 (specifically the 90°-630° pair of each virtual "V-Twin"; the crossplane V8 has one 270°-450° in there somewhere). I mean, this sounds like a V8 to me. But I've not heard the actual cars in question in person.
In GT6, I've been pro-actively tuning cars I expect should sound good with intake sound finally being included, as well as collecting those that should also out of the box. Yes, I am that stupid, setting myself up for disappointment!
- 3,070
- Norway
I thought I heard a small japanese V-twin in there.
Probably my laptop not picking up the LF...goes to connect Klipsch and 12"...
I admire your optimismIn GT6, I've been pro-actively tuning cars I expect should sound good with intake sound finally being included, as well as collecting those that should also out of the box. Yes, I am that stupid, setting myself up for disappointment!
- 212
- Los Angeles, CA
- disneyland5
The X2014 is the ONLY decent sounding car in this game. Seriously though Grand Theft Auto V has better car sounds than this game. Come on PD can you guys please focus on the sound for just once?!
- 1,239
- Italy
I can totally picture myself downloading a 5GB patch in the summer...just...close your eyes...and....imagine...pretty things...V12 unicorns..and V16 dragons...some in-line 4 dwarfs
- 353
- Serbia
That video further proves gt6 on the ps3 can deliver good sounds even with the memory it has.
- 494
- Brno, Czech Republic
- Rash-182
It doesn´t prove anything.
But what really pisses me off is the toleration of the so called placeholders. I´ve grown alergic to this word! Somebody should kick them in the face for just mentioning it. If what we have now are just placeholders, then how the hell would they describe the "sounds" whe had prior to them? It came of as just another excuse for the local enthusiastic defenders, right next to limited power of the PS3. What also makes me want to jump off the window are some people, shifting the problem and trying to come up with a different, bigger one. I´m talking about: Oh but it is hard to come up with totaly 100% accurate and realistic sound so i understand, why the sounds are the way they are now and i like it, because nobody would be happy without this! Like who the .... asks for this?! All we want is V8´s sounding like V8´s, it´s that simple.
Let´s face it, their best effort (the praised red bull) is still pathetic compared even to mobile games. It just shows you, that they are clueless bunch of amateurs without even the slightest idea of what they are doing. No, you say? Ok, then show me one sane proffesional sound designer, who could make such disasters as the BMW M3, Audi R8 or their latest masterpiece - the Audi S1. All that after 15 years may I add.
Done
But what really pisses me off is the toleration of the so called placeholders. I´ve grown alergic to this word! Somebody should kick them in the face for just mentioning it. If what we have now are just placeholders, then how the hell would they describe the "sounds" whe had prior to them? It came of as just another excuse for the local enthusiastic defenders, right next to limited power of the PS3. What also makes me want to jump off the window are some people, shifting the problem and trying to come up with a different, bigger one. I´m talking about: Oh but it is hard to come up with totaly 100% accurate and realistic sound so i understand, why the sounds are the way they are now and i like it, because nobody would be happy without this! Like who the .... asks for this?! All we want is V8´s sounding like V8´s, it´s that simple.
Let´s face it, their best effort (the praised red bull) is still pathetic compared even to mobile games. It just shows you, that they are clueless bunch of amateurs without even the slightest idea of what they are doing. No, you say? Ok, then show me one sane proffesional sound designer, who could make such disasters as the BMW M3, Audi R8 or their latest masterpiece - the Audi S1. All that after 15 years may I add.
Done
- 858
- United Kingdom
- 353
- Serbia
you may not see me either. And that video does prove something... that is kinda already proven, PD are **** at sounds and as I already said they need to be outsourced.
- 2,643
- Finland
- OdeFinn
That video proves at PD don't understand how to prevent airflow sound from microphone, lifted throttle and intake whoosh different airflow to that mic and we hear something what we are not supposed to hear, that whoosh should not be audible to human ear, 'coz its coming from microphones holes due that changed direction/value/mass of air.
(sweet windscreen to mic )
(sweet windscreen to mic
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