Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

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Very happy that PD made the change after so many years of misunderstanding and no communication with their customers a big thank you to Kaz and Gtplanet connection with the company im very proud for you and your work and effort in evolving the game through are eyes .:bowdown::gtpflag:
 
Overreacting? far from it, I was expecting this sort of answer from the guru himself: Nothing that we already knew. We already knew that they recorded cars ! but by some magical GT "filter", most of these sounds are not translated into the game well as they mostly all sound bad, digital and metallic, the high revs are a disgrace, and the effects pretty much non existent... Die hard GT fans seem to be the ones to overreact: As I said before, GT fans are like starved people, any rare drops of water from "god" (ie: Kaz) is like a feast for them: last Lotus T97 and F3 sounds "slightly" better than the others, WOOW, GT is a godly again! However, any PC players of RRE, pCArs, modded Assetto Corsa or IRacing Laugh out loud about these "better" sound. Who's overreacting? especially when it's business as usual with the new cars of this update, they all sound LIKE CRAP! [again].

The problem here is that you're complaining about the answer before it's finished. We've yet to hear about what is going to change and when it's going to change, but we likely will as the blog gets updated.

People are excited because they are communicating, when you consider PDs history that's a very big deal. On top of that, he's starting with the most popular question and rather than giving one of his famously vague answers he's going to great lengths to be specific and inform us about what's been happening and what's going on.

So yes, you are overreacting. Chill.
 
But isn't that what he has given? The question was reasonably simple - when (if at all) is the sound update that was talked about pre-launch coming. That's pretty simple to answer (assuming you want to answer it), either Yes and a date or No and an apology. No need for 4-part "answer".

His answers were usually alot shorter then that and still weren't definitive.
 
They have one big technical error on recording, you can't have clear bass sound recorded on that distance what they use, in example 100 Hz sound wavelenght is about 3.45 meters, you will never get it right if you try to capture it closer than that.
They get only "whoom" of airflow recorded from that close distance and then we can all enjoy "wacuum cleaner" sounds.

(can be recorded closer, but needs pretty good mic with long movements supporting film)
 
But isn't that what he has given? The question was reasonably simple - when (if at all) is the sound update that was talked about pre-launch coming. That's pretty simple to answer (assuming you want to answer it), either Yes and a date or No and an apology. No need for 4-part "answer".
To borrow a phrase from Kaz, you are technically correct. So far all we have are vague answers about stuff we didn't ask about. But he's not done yet. Perhaps he's just giving us some interesting background information, and they will get into the new sound generation method, maybe even provide a link to a sample or point to the new Redbull and Lotus sounds as examples. Or maybe he'll go on being vague and saying nothing on point.

But let's just wait until he's finished with the whole blog on sound and has moved on to something else, before we leap to any dramatic conclusions. We don't start freaking out at half-time or after the end of the first period that the game is over do we? There's always room for a comeback:sly:
 
I noticed that he only mentioned engine sounds and not any other sound effects. Other than engine, a little wind noise, and those love/[hate] tyre sounds, there are no other sounds to listen too. I certainly hope they're being worked on too.
 
I noticed that he only mentioned engine sounds and not any other sound effects. Other than engine, a little wind noise, and those love/[hate] tyre sounds, there are no other sounds to listen too. I certainly hope they're being worked on too.
That would actually be my biggest fear for the whole sound issue. With so many cars in the game, is it even possible to do this in a reasonable time frame? Will they resort to canned effects making many cars sound very similar? This is the real downside of having so much content. The breadth of content is only feasible in some ways because it's so generic and not individualized. Will they only come up with a new engine sound generation system and leave out the details that really bring a car alive? Not sure where my money would be on that bet.:boggled:
 
The TS030 uses what I recognise as a perennial rally car sample set. It tops out around 7000 rpm, but the Toyota revs to 10k+ :dopey:

"Placeholder".


Also, the scope issue is likely the biggest motivator for PD taking so damned long with the new method. Remember, Kaz said they've been working on a completely new method of generating sounds. So it's nothing that has been done before, and it's not necessarily anything to do with recording.

Which is what I've been screaming developers should be doing for years now, to the point that I tried it myself. I seriously cannot wait to see what a talented team could do with the concept.

Again, the Red Bull and Senna cars are the key. ;)

They have one big technical error on recording, you can't have clear bass sound recorded on that distance what they use, in example 100 Hz sound wavelenght is about 3.45 meters, you will never get it right if you try to capture it closer than that.
They get only "whoom" of airflow recorded from that close distance and then we can all enjoy "wacuum cleaner" sounds.

(can be recorded closer, but needs pretty good mic with long movements supporting film)
Citation needed.
 
They have updated the sounds in GT5, almost insignificant changes, but I thought they would try something for GT6.


I found that to be mostly switching around existing samples so they went from 'horrendous' to 'bad' back in GT5 :D.

Hardly the big change or general update one would expect from Kaz his placeholder quote. I always knew that was gonna end up being misleading salestalk, but I can't seem to resist the urge to point it out every time :lol:
 
Citation needed.

Not sure what you mean, lets play engine: assume at engine is revving 2000rpm, piston is moving 10cm up 10cm down(4 pistons on 4-stroke 3.3m/s=~100hz), so it pushes 3.3meter per second exhaust gas out(+gas is compressed ~7-10times+expands on ignition/explosion and bass goes lower due higher rate of gas flow, making closer to 10-20Hz), it is same as bit below 100hz wave length, then exhaustpipe and other parts make from it their own reflections to that sound but same ~100hz base bass is still pushing out from there, how many pistons, how collected etc..
Recording problem on car sounds are related to that amount of airflow what engine develop, engine sound is not coming from speaker cone, but its generated from high flow of exhaust gas(explosion gas).

I know that false thought about "bass needs distance to evolve"(or something like that), there is still some truth on it too, I have to get some English material for you, explaining on my native Finnish would be easy :)
 
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To borrow a phrase from Kaz, you are technically correct. So far all we have are vague answers about stuff we didn't ask about. But he's not done yet. Perhaps he's just giving us some interesting background information, and they will get into the new sound generation method, maybe even provide a link to a sample or point to the new Redbull and Lotus sounds as examples. Or maybe he'll go on being vague and saying nothing on point.

But let's just wait until he's finished with the whole blog on sound and has moved on to something else, before we leap to any dramatic conclusions. We don't start freaking out at half-time or after the end of the first period that the game is over do we? There's always room for a comeback:sly:
Who have you watched sports with?!
 
Not sure what you mean, lets play engine: assume at engine is revving 2000rpm, piston is moving 10cm up 10cm down, so it pushes 3.3meter per second exhaust gas out, it is same as bit below 100hz wave length, then exhaustpipe and other parts make from it their own reflections to that sound but same ~100hz base bass is still pushing out from there, how many pistons, how collected etc..
Recording problem on car sounds are related to that amount of airflow what engine develop, engine sound is not coming from speaker cone, but its generated from high flow of exhaust gas(explosion gas).

I know that false thought about "bass needs distance to evolve"(or something like that), there is still some truth on it too, I have to get some English material for you, explaining on my native Finnish would be easy :)

The amount of gas flowed is only important in the power output of the sound, all else being equal. You can't take a linear measurement and ascribe a volume to it anyway; you forgot to mention the bore. But that's irrelevant.

Sound is pressure oscillations, and you shouldn't confuse traveling waves for standing waves. For an engine running at 2000 rpm, the fundamental frequency you will "hear" is 17 Hz (you can't really hear that very well, so you hear the harmonic series above that which "suggests", psychoacoustically, the fundamental instead; you can probably feel it quite well, though, which is most of the fun). That is true no matter the bore or stroke dimensions; a two stroke ("2t") motor, however, will have its fundamental at 33 Hz instead.

Because a microphone is picking up traveling waves coming from the exhaust tip, the placement only affects the phase, not the amplitude, of a given wave. Except, of course, where there is phase interference of multiple waves. For phase interference to cancel entirely (anti-phase: 180 degrees), the distance from different parts of the source to the microphone has to be half the wavelength. For that reason, wavelengths that are close to or smaller than twice the size of the source are more affected by such interference patterns. For a 2" exhaust, we're looking at frequencies approaching 6750 Hz and higher. Anything lower is barely affected at all. The wavelength at 17 Hz is 20 metres, such that moving the mic by 1 metre gives a phase difference in the traveling wave of 18 degrees (effectively only a time delay), but the maximum phase difference available for interference from the 2" source is only 0.5 degrees (less than 0.01% amplitude reduction, from the cosine). At 6750 Hz, moving the mic only 4" can move from one node (point of maximum interference) to the next.

So mic-placement is critical for higher frequencies, not bass frequencies. After a distance of about 6 times the source size (from memory), the only concern is that you record on-axis, as the interference pattern simplifies greatly to a large central "lobe", with "side lobes" at different angles for different frequencies. In practice, to avoid wind noise, you record just off-axis, and perhaps double the minimum distance (mostly for SPL reasons, I'd guess). So two feet is perfectly far enough away for good fidelity from a 2" exhaust. Speaker cones are pretty good approximations (see here): the lack of an acoustic baffle on the exhaust pipe and the mean flow through it complicate the analysis, but the measured pattern is broadly the same, only perturbed from the "ideal case", in terms of "lobe widths" (angular distances between minima for a given frequency) etc. PD used such a model for their sources starting with GT5P, which inspired me to do the same.

The turbulent noise is a separate thing, and has to be handled separately in the game. It's hard to separate it from the pressure trace of the exhaust sound in a recording, though. That turbulence modulates the exhaust sound, much as tyre noise and the aerodynamic wake of a high-speed car gives the "fast jet" sound, to give a washy effect: iRacing and pCARS use recordings from distances where this becomes very apparent.

I suspect the idea that "bass needs distance to evolve" is due to a misinterpretation of the "preferential" attenuation of higher frequencies over distance. So it's not that bass increases, just that treble decreases; except in the case of the above-mentioned turbulent modulation (converting low-frequency energy to high frequencies, filling in some of the natural atmospheric attenuation).


Note that this is a completely separate issue to the whiny engine (as opposed to exhaust) sounds in the game. Mechanical sounds are apt to be biased to higher frequencies, especially when the mechanics involved are high frequency themselves. The lack of intake sounds (usually very bassy) really hurts there.
 
The amount of gas flowed is only important in the power output of the sound, all else being equal. You can't take a linear measurement and ascribe a volume to it anyway; you forgot to mention the bore. But that's irrelevant.

Sound is pressure oscillations, and you shouldn't confuse traveling waves for standing waves. For an engine running at 2000 rpm, the fundamental frequency you will "hear" is 17 Hz (you can't really hear that very well, so you hear the harmonic series above that which "suggests", psychoacoustically, the fundamental instead; you can probably feel it quite well, though, which is most of the fun). That is true no matter the bore or stroke dimensions; a two stroke ("2t") motor, however, will have its fundamental at 33 Hz instead.

Because a microphone is picking up traveling waves coming from the exhaust tip, the placement only affects the phase, not the amplitude, of a given wave. Except, of course, where there is phase interference of multiple waves. For phase interference to cancel entirely (anti-phase: 180 degrees), the distance from different parts of the source to the microphone has to be half the wavelength. For that reason, wavelengths that are close to or smaller than twice the size of the source are more affected by such interference patterns. For a 2" exhaust, we're looking at frequencies approaching 6750 Hz and higher. Anything lower is barely affected at all. The wavelength at 17 Hz is 20 metres, such that moving the mic by 1 metre gives a phase difference in the traveling wave of 18 degrees (effectively only a time delay), but the maximum phase difference available for interference from the 2" source is only 0.5 degrees (less than 0.01% amplitude reduction, from the cosine). At 6750 Hz, moving the mic only 4" can move from one node (point of maximum interference) to the next.

So mic-placement is critical for higher frequencies, not bass frequencies. After a distance of about 6 times the source size (from memory), the only concern is that you record on-axis, as the interference pattern simplifies greatly to a large central "lobe", with "side lobes" at different angles for different frequencies. In practice, to avoid wind noise, you record just off-axis, and perhaps double the minimum distance (mostly for SPL reasons, I'd guess). So two feet is perfectly far enough away for good fidelity from a 2" exhaust. Speaker cones are pretty good approximations (see here): the lack of an acoustic baffle on the exhaust pipe and the mean flow through it complicate the analysis, but the measured pattern is broadly the same, only perturbed from the "ideal case", in terms of "lobe widths" (angular distances between minima for a given frequency) etc. PD used such a model for their sources starting with GT5P, which inspired me to do the same.

The turbulent noise is a separate thing, and has to be handled separately in the game. It's hard to separate it from the pressure trace of the exhaust sound in a recording, though. That turbulence modulates the exhaust sound, much as tyre noise and the aerodynamic wake of a high-speed car gives the "fast jet" sound, to give a washy effect: iRacing and pCARS use recordings from distances where this becomes very apparent.

I suspect the idea that "bass needs distance to evolve" is due to a misinterpretation of the "preferential" attenuation of higher frequencies over distance. So it's not that bass increases, just that treble decreases; except in the case of the above-mentioned turbulent modulation (converting low-frequency energy to high frequencies, filling in some of the natural atmospheric attenuation).


Note that this is a completely separate issue to the whiny engine (as opposed to exhaust) sounds in the game. Mechanical sounds are apt to be biased to higher frequencies, especially when the mechanics involved are high frequency themselves. The lack of intake sounds (usually very bassy) really hurts there.
My head just exploded:cheers:
 
But isn't that what he has given? The question was reasonably simple - when (if at all) is the sound update that was talked about pre-launch coming. That's pretty simple to answer (assuming you want to answer it), either Yes and a date or No and an apology. No need for 4-part "answer".
He goes on to explain how and why Gran Turismo's sounds developed over the years the way they did. Wouldn't you want to know why the sounds were so bad? :rolleyes:
 
The real thing:



GT6:



Sounds like a grinder for coffee beans :D
But he's umm sorry though...


Nah they're just placeholders, you'll see!

Honestly it's not THAT off. I mean it is missing that throaty engine and hybrid motor noise but it sort of sounds similar. Still not good though as you can tell they didn't even record the sound, they just chose an existing sound sample that was similar. But as we all know similar just doesn't cut it. I really hope they record a sound sample for this car...
 
He goes on to explain how and why Gran Turismo's sounds developed over the years the way they did. Wouldn't you want to know why the sounds were so bad? :rolleyes:

I think people would have less of a problem if the answer was posted all in one go. Instead we've got the non-answer explanation first, which is fine, but now we're left waiting for the rest. It's a bit of a tease and something we've become used to with GT in the last few years.
 
They have one big technical error on recording, you can't have clear bass sound recorded on that distance what they use, in example 100 Hz sound wavelenght is about 3.45 meters, you will never get it right if you try to capture it closer than that.
They get only "whoom" of airflow recorded from that close distance and then we can all enjoy "wacuum cleaner" sounds.

(can be recorded closer, but needs pretty good mic with long movements supporting film)
no. no no no no no. just... no. That's now how it works. At all. By that argument if the person standing next to you were to speak into your ear you wouldn't hear anything below 2khz.
 
no. no no no no no. just... no. That's now how it works. At all. By that argument if the person standing next to you were to speak into your ear you wouldn't hear anything below 2khz.
You are not hearing it, you are hearing reflections of it :)
 
You are not hearing it, you are hearing reflections of it :)
so then according to you, this portion of video: (oh the stupid media thing drops the time tag, skip to 6 minutes in)
where the speaker is inside an anechoic chamber (ie no reflections) and has a mic attached to his shirt at a distance of less than a foot I'd guess is going to have no sound at all below 1 KHz.
 
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