God and his so called fairy tales

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Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
yep,.. there's educated guessing and plain 'ol pullin it outta the rectum. A fine line even I cross on occassion.

But this line - Almost every land animal known to man including mankind themselves was found in this layer - is just flat out rediculous.

Note, I never said how big the layer was, and I'm not entirely sure (it's big enough to hold what scientists believe to be a few million years). I admit, I may have exagerated about what they found in the layer, but there was an unusually large amount of animals in it. I'm sorry for this exageration...
 
Originally posted by milefile
Complex emotions are an inevitable side effect of consciousness, of knowing right from wrong. They have no purpose, per se, beyond what is done with them. People who do not believe in god still have powerful emotions and ecstatic experiences. The birth of my son was paralyzingly beautiful and all I could do was stand there and cry.
So, what you’re saying is that our human complexity and consciousness is a bi-product of chance? A side effect as you so eloquently put it? So as we spiral through space at thousands of miles per hour, a race of mammals accidentally stumbled on technology which would allow them to ascertain certain food groups that would allow or nurture brain development to occur, and as a side-effect of such brain growth, emotions and human consciousness is born? And the purpose of that would be? And it seems that purpose seems to be a key element here would you agree?



It's silly to try to explain to a believer how one can have a meaningful existence without god. In the previous paragraph I started to willingly turn myself into a curiosity for the sake of argument. I'm sure you still don't understand, and will never experience the world as I do. But it doesn't matter a bit. It takes nothing from you or me, and whether it would benefit either of us to truly know what the other feels and thinks is debateable. What matters is respect. Put simply, I am happy for you that you are inspired and awestruck by the Montana wilderness. I am happy for you because I think I know what that's like and know it is good. If you and I stood on the same mountain, and looked at the same sunrise, we could assume the other knows what we're feeling. We could choose to smile and walk on, cherishing the earth and its majesty, allowing words to remain humble and in their place, or have a debate about whether or not it is beautiful because of God. It only serves to divide. It is sad how human consciousness, who's "purpose" is dubious to begin with, can sever us from any possibility of understanding it.

For me Truth is in the things, not beyond or above them, but right there in the things themselves.

I said nothing of meaningful existence or lack there of. I am merely questioning the purpose of our human emotions and consciousness that is unique and special to us. Can we not marvel at the beauty of it? Is it possible that it is by design and not my some random luck of the draw that we can look at art and appreciate it?

I would totally agree that you and I could undoubtedly look across a valley as far as we could see and witness the birth of a new day to feel and experience that moment, regardless of our religious or spiritual backgrounds. Definitely! The difference is that I would give thanks and appreciation to my creator for allowing such beauty to exist, while you might be thankful for the good profits that chance and evolution has given you, both to look at and the consciousness to comprehend and enjoy it.

I hope I was able to clearly make my point, not to frustrate or anger anyone, but just to share why I think and feel the way I do.

:cheers:
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
That's just being anal on your part,....... IMO.

Besides,... T-Rex was a scavenger and a strict carnavore, I think omnivores are the best candidates for evolution. Its damn near a proven part of evolution that we didnt start hyper(for lack of a better word) evolving until we had a balanced diet of meat and potatoes.

And ya,... I still think we're not special. Wanna know why staring at the stars has nothing to do with it? Cause my cat gets the same feeling when he stares at the TV for an hour straight.

So your saying that early man was not a scavenger?

So how is it that IYO that my post was anal? I was just making a comparison to show you that your not always what you eat, and that I hardly agree that your diet can be the difference between the intellectual advances of a human compared any other species on this entire planet. Why is it we have Humans that are so smart while no other species have even come close to our evolutionary advances? To be anal or maybe just a little sarcastic, may early man found the brain food first and did not allow any other species to eat from that food source. Maybe that's why we are the only species on this planet that has brains as advanced as us. What do you think?
 
Sorry for all the extra posts.... Every time I hit submit I think of something new. How about this:

To explain why Humans, as a species, is so advanced compared to the rest of the living animals on the planet is because maybe, just maybe they are not originally from this planet. Think about it, if there was a start, even a big bang if you will, all evolution had an equal chance to advance just as the next guy. Depending on the environment which also had to evolve would cause certain adaptations to occur. Continue this for millions and millions of years. Why would the intellectual advances of one species have such a spread compared to other species on the planet of the same planetary history and eco system? Because humans were actually not originally from the same planetary history or eco system, they were transplanted from an alien world to keep a dying race from extinction. Or God created us in his image and he would make us the dominate species over all the beasts of the land and water and sky. It almost sounds a little too much like the original Planet of the Apes (great movies, BTW). So I don’t know….what’s the scientific guess as to why there is such a spread between humans and other species of animals?
 
Originally posted by Curveball
I hope you all aren't talking bad about God. :mad:

Please contribute to this thread if you wish, but please stay on topic. "Burning in Hell" for blasphemy is further down in the list of opinion topics.

;) Sorry if that came out offensive, I actually found it quite funny. I know...it must be getting late.

Anyways, yes contribute if you like. We are trying to have a open intelligent conversation. So, please respect the topic.

:cheers:
 
Originally posted by Curveball
I'm serious! If I were a mod I'd close this. I'm Catholic!

Please re-read the above post. Your religious preference is not means to close this thread. I have not read any "god sucks" or "I hate Catholics" posts yet. If I do, I will be sure to address that issue. Have you read the entire thread or did you just look at the title and just jump in fist blazing?

Again, please stay on topic.

Thanks.
 
We aren't talking bad about God. Just trying to figure out what seperates us from the other beast. What makes us special or set apart. I'm sure everyone has their own ideas about it whether they be Christian or Athiest.
 
We aren't talking bad about God. Just trying to figure out what seperates us from the other beast. What makes us special or set apart. I'm sure everyone has their own ideas about it whether they be Christian or Athiest.

I'm just confused how as an athiest one could see us as special. If it's that we are smarter than animals then doesn't that make me more special (sorry about the grammar)than someone who has a mental disability?
If it's that we have evolved further than the other animals then if we wait long enough isn't there a possibility that another species will evolve beyond us and then they would be special and we wouldn't be special anymore? After all evolution is an ongoing process and not all beings evolve at the same pace.
If I was an Athiest then I wouldn't see us as any more special than a monkey. We just happened to get there first. Maybe we aren't special. Maybe we are just lucky.
 
Originally posted by DGB454

If it's that we have evolved further than the other animals then if we wait long enough isn't there a possibility that another species will evolve beyond us and then they would be special and we wouldn't be special anymore? After all evolution is an ongoing process and not all beings evolve at the same pace.

One bias I hear all the time is the assumption that humans are "more evolved". There is no reason to see evolution as a linear race (to technology). Being special, as we humans are, doesn't mean we're better. Dolphins could be better for all I know, unless they have a similar bias that says evolution is a linear race to fins.
 
Originally posted by milefile
One bias I hear all the time is the assumption that humans are "more evolved". There is no reason to see evolution as a linear race (to technology). Being special, as we humans are, doesn't mean we're better. Dolphins could be better for all I know, unless they have a similar bias that says evolution is a linear race to fins.

I don't believe evolution is a linear race or that it even occured in a totally linear fashion.

So what makes us special other than we think we are then?
 
Originally posted by DGB454
Sorry about the semi double post. My computer has the hic ups. It's running very slow with this slow connection.

Don't say it - the moderators will create some rule and ban you for it!
 
Wow, all of those good, thought provoking posts and not one comment. ;) Perhaps people are still thinking.

As far as animals having emotions, I would also have to agree that my dogs have emotions. They can be angry, exhibit joy and frolic, can show affection and loyalty. With all these things considered, their emotional ability is much, much less then that of human emotions. They are far simpler whereas human emotions can get so complex and multi-layered. As a result, I doubt, nor do I entertain that a dogs emotions are comparative to that of a humans emotion.
 
ok heres what i think. if you "die" you do you find out what the point of living here really is? when you "die" do you really die or continue living somewhere else? i'm not going to kill myself, but knowing what happens after you die seems worth dying for. makes the dead seem pretty lucky and makes death look kinda good. but what if you die and you find out **** about anything. that'd really suck. i could keep going and going on about this but this is all just questions no one knows the anwsers too. just makes ya think a little;)
 
I hear you. I wonder if what those guys talk about when they die, but come out of it.... I remember reading about a guy that scientifically drowned himself. He was recessitated. He described complete peace and the tunnel of light that often described by brain dead patients that have been brought back to life.

I know what you mean...you wonna just find out for yourself whassup, but as with most things....the best things come to those who wait. ;)
 
Originally posted by DGB454
We aren't talking bad about God. Just trying to figure out what seperates us from the other beast. What makes us special or set apart. I'm sure everyone has their own ideas about it whether they be Christian or Athiest.

I'm just confused how as an athiest one could see us as special. If it's that we are smarter than animals then doesn't that make me more special (sorry about the grammar)than someone who has a mental disability?
If it's that we have evolved further than the other animals then if we wait long enough isn't there a possibility that another species will evolve beyond us and then they would be special and we wouldn't be special anymore? After all evolution is an ongoing process and not all beings evolve at the same pace.
If I was an Athiest then I wouldn't see us as any more special than a monkey. We just happened to get there first. Maybe we aren't special. Maybe we are just lucky.
Yes, you are more special than one who has a mental disability. You are, at least I hope you are, a greater asset to society (I almost said "capitalist") than a mentally retarded person. That makes you more "special," or at least it raises your status, or, more aptly put, gives you the ability to raise your status, and thereby benifiting the world community. In effect, Humans are only more "advanced" because of their highly social nature, which, over hundreds of thousands of years, led to "true" civilization. While the definition of "true civilization" will be ever changing to match the current society, Humans will always believe that they are the most important thing in the universe. Even the church, at least the Catholic Church, stresses, or did stress, the imporrtance of humans in the world. Remember, Galileo was charged with heresy when he contested that the Earth revolved around the sun, and not the other way around. The church saw this as a threat to human supremacy in God's Universe (or world, in this particular case) and did their best to quell the spread of this obviously false information. Furthermore, (I know, I'm dragging on...) humanity will never let another species of this planet surpass its perfection, at least by their standards, which are obviously biased toward the familiar, "human" anatomy. The human race, perhaps not as a whole, but as a majority, would find a way to destroy that other race before we accepted the fact that there was an entire race of beings superior to them. On a final note, you cannot honestly believe that you are not superior to a dog (which is a fantastic example Pako). That's just nonsense.
I just alienated myself from my own race. I feel dirty. Ugh.
 
Originally posted by Timmotheus
Yes, you are more special than one who has a mental disability. You are, at least I hope you are, a greater asset to society (I almost said "capitalist") than a mentally retarded person. That makes you more "special," or at least it raises your status, or, more aptly put, gives you the ability to raise your status, and thereby benifiting the world community. In effect, Humans are only more "advanced" because of their highly social nature, which, over hundreds of thousands of years, led to "true" civilization. While the definition of "true civilization" will be ever changing to match the current society, Humans will always believe that they are the most important thing in the universe. Even the church, at least the Catholic Church, stresses, or did stress, the imporrtance of humans in the world. Remember, Galileo was charged with heresy when he contested that the Earth revolved around the sun, and not the other way around. The church saw this as a threat to human supremacy in God's Universe (or world, in this particular case) and did their best to quell the spread of this obviously false information. Furthermore, (I know, I'm dragging on...) humanity will never let another species of this planet surpass its perfection, at least by their standards, which are obviously biased toward the familiar, "human" anatomy. The human race, perhaps not as a whole, but as a majority, would find a way to destroy that other race before we accepted the fact that there was an entire race of beings superior to them. On a final note, you cannot honestly believe that you are not superior to a dog (which is a fantastic example Pako). That's just nonsense.
I just alienated myself from my own race. I feel dirty. Ugh.

Ok I see your point on how I am more special than a mentaly handicapped person because I contribute more to society.
So a seeing eye dog or a police dog would also be more special than a mentally handicapped person also.

Are you sure humanity won't let that happen? As soon as we try to wipe them out then there will always be some group out there that will come to their rescue and block that from happening reguardless of the consequences to mandkind. Just think of all the groups out there that stop us from developing land because a special moth or a rare weed is there.

Actually I don't honestly believe any animal is superior to any human but I think our superiorty doesn't lie in our physical or our mental make up or development.
 
Originally posted by DGB454
Ok I see your point on how I am more special than a mentaly handicapped person because I contribute more to society.
So a seeing eye dog or a police dog would also be more special than a mentally handicapped person also.

Are you sure humanity won't let that happen? As soon as we try to wipe them out then there will always be some group out there that will come to their rescue and block that from happening reguardless of the consequences to mandkind. Just think of all the groups out there that stop us from developing land because a special moth or a rare weed is there.

Actually I don't honestly believe any animal is superior to any human but I think our superiorty doesn't lie in our physical or our mental make up or development.
When the soveriegnty of the hujman race is at stake, a select few will not be able to halt the masses from doing what they believe is "right." Hell, most of the churches will probably figure out some way to blame the new animal on Satan, and demand for its extermination.

Um, then what does our superiority lie in?
 
I can't forsee what the church might do in the future so I really can't comment on that.

Um, then what does our superiority lie in?

Keep in mind that I am comming strictly from a Christian point of view.

I believe what makes humas special, set above, superior is the same thing that God said makes us so. He created us in his image. I believe that doesn't necesserly mean that we look like him (although who knows we may) but I think "in His image" means that he created us as spiritual beings like him. He created us with a soul that will continue to live long after our bodies are in the ground and decayed. I believe this is the destiny of every human that ever lived and that ever will live. I believe God only gave humans this gift and not plants and not other animals. That is why we have dominion over the animals and plants. That's why I am confident there won't ever be another species that will someday surpass humans and become dominant. God said we have dominion..He didn't say you have dominion for now. We are special because God made us special. God made us special so we could fellowship with him.

I don't concern myself with evolution anymore. I don't care how old the earth is anymore either. I have my ideas on how everything happened and evolution and an old earth is part of that belief but it is such a tiny part that it doesn't get much air time anymore.

This sounded a little preachy so I appoligize.
 
Originally posted by DGB454
I believe that doesn't necesserly mean that we look like him (although who knows we may) but I think "in His image" means that he created us as spiritual beings like him.
You didn't capitalize "him!" I call blasphemy! Time for an excommunication!

I didn't predict what the church was going to do in the future, I made an educated guess based on their past responses to similar situations, e.g. Galileo.
 
Originally posted by DGB454
I don't believe evolution is a linear race or that it even occured in a totally linear fashion.

So what makes us special other than we think we are then?
Technology. We don't just live on Earth, we use it to live the way we want, which even includes leaving it behind.
 
Originally posted by Pako
Wow, all of those good, thought provoking posts and not one comment. ;) Perhaps people are still thinking.

As far as animals having emotions, I would also have to agree that my dogs have emotions. They can be angry, exhibit joy and frolic, can show affection and loyalty. With all these things considered, their emotional ability is much, much less then that of human emotions. They are far simpler whereas human emotions can get so complex and multi-layered. As a result, I doubt, nor do I entertain that a dogs emotions are comparative to that of a humans emotion.

I think they are comparable. THe fact that they are more simple, as you pointed out, doesn't mace them as different as it may seem. The complex range of human emotion is, I think, a result of knowing right from wrong. We feel good when things are right, we feel bad when things are wrong. That's the complexity. For a dog it's simply a matter of base instinct and need, although some would argue dogs do know right from wrong.
 
Originally posted by wana b drifter
but what if you die and you find out **** about anything. that'd really suck.

How would that suck? You'd be dead, which of course means you wouldn't be able to know "sucks".
 
Originally posted by Timmotheus
Yes, you are more special than one who has a mental disability. You are, at least I hope you are, a greater asset to society (I almost said "capitalist") than a mentally retarded person. That makes you more "special," or at least it raises your status, or, more aptly put, gives you the ability to raise your status, and thereby benifiting the world community. In effect, Humans are only more "advanced" because of their highly social nature, which, over hundreds of thousands of years, led to "true" civilization. While the definition of "true civilization" will be ever changing to match the current society, Humans will always believe that they are the most important thing in the universe. Even the church, at least the Catholic Church, stresses, or did stress, the imporrtance of humans in the world. Remember, Galileo was charged with heresy when he contested that the Earth revolved around the sun, and not the other way around. The church saw this as a threat to human supremacy in God's Universe (or world, in this particular case) and did their best to quell the spread of this obviously false information. Furthermore, (I know, I'm dragging on...) humanity will never let another species of this planet surpass its perfection, at least by their standards, which are obviously biased toward the familiar, "human" anatomy. The human race, perhaps not as a whole, but as a majority, would find a way to destroy that other race before we accepted the fact that there was an entire race of beings superior to them. On a final note, you cannot honestly believe that you are not superior to a dog (which is a fantastic example Pako). That's just nonsense.
I just alienated myself from my own race. I feel dirty. Ugh.

I don't see how civilization is "defined" by society. Can you elablorate of that?

As far as another species being "superior" goes... I don't know that "superior" is a good word. Does it mean in every concievable way? Does it mean in brain power? Does it mean in evolutionary success?

All species on Earth are owned by the Homo Sapiens. They exist at our convenience and for our purposes. In this context the possibility of any other species becoming superior is precluded. This could be reversable, but I can't think of anything happening that could start the process. No matter how much nay-sayers and doom-prophesizers cry, we are doing quite well, better all the time, and will continue for a long, long time. But it's important to put it into context. The dinosaurs were just as successful for hundreds of millions of years and then just disappeared off the face of the Earth. Assuming you believe the Earth is billions of years old and epochs of life and extinction have ravaged the planet many times over, we seem like a speck of dust; in the history of the universe all of Earth is small.
 

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