Gran Turismo 6 general Physics Discussion(as well as video)

[CoolColJ]

Regarding the GTA/Demo, playing with the control pad, the road going 370z feels good, and is quite easy to drift - feels different to GT5
When you brake and shift weight forward and then snap the throttle when loaded in a turn, you can kick the tail out, in a way that feels nothing like GT5, really nice - only happened once so far so the tyres feel organic and emergent


The Nissan Leaf rolls a lot!

I had fun abusing the cars to see the physics - might post a video capture later of my exploits
The suspension movement looks really good over the curbs and what not, maybe more realistic looking than any other driving I've seen/played so far - visually that is

 

[Emet_PL]

After playing the demo.. well... I have lost faith in PD
Unfortunately it's still the same, old physics engine from GT5.. or even from GT4.
Weight transfer is better and suspension in more "alive" compared to GT5 but low speed phycisc are still a joke (100% the same as in the GT4 and GT5).
They (PD) need to (they MUST) hire new people to really make brand new physics engine for PS4 and stop with upgrading that old old PS2 engine... Leave it alone and let it die already :/

 

[phil_2001]

Don't worry, everything is for the better. If GT6 sells something like Forza then PD knows they should change everything in order to win again the audience and that will be hard work, needless to say it will be great for all, progress cannot be stopped. But tehre might be some pain for gamers and PD if GT6 fails the hype.

 

[Isho]

after playing the demo.. Well... I have lost faith in pd
unfortunately it's still the same, old physics engine from gt5.. Or even from gt4.
Weight transfer is better and suspension in more "alive" compared to gt5 but low speed phycisc are still a joke (100% the same as in the gt4 and gt5).
They (pd) need to (they must) hire new people to really make brand new physics engine for ps4 and stop with upgrading that old old ps2 engine... Leave it alone and let it die already :/

I think you're playing a different demo lol.

 

[BRADZZZ11]

I think you're playing a different demo lol.

^ This.

I haven't tested for the complete lack of grip under 3mph yet, but at slower paces it is still vastly different to previous GT's. Overall a vast improvement and considering it is still a demo, it's a good quality. The only issues with it aren't physics based luckily.

 

[atledreier]

<3mph physics are not the most relevant for a racing game, imo. As long as the physics are believeable at driving speeds (over 5-10mph) I'd be very happy.

 

[Imari]

I've just noticed something very disturbing.

There is a G-meter underneath the rev counter/speedo on the hud. It has white marks that are presumably 1.0 and 2.0 on each side, and grey marks halfway in between for 0.5 and 1.5.

The Leaf is on Comfort Medium tyres. The second hardest grade available, if we assume the same tyre range as GT5.

The Leaf pulls 0.9 to 1.0 G. Easily. Try it and see.

For reference, on a skid pad a Leaf needs what is basically a slick race tyre to pull those sorts of numbers. http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...leaf-getting-an-ev-to-grip-like-a-911-feature

The 370Z road version has Sports Hards. It's sort of hard to read while trying to go fast around a corner, but I'm getting at least 1.2-1.3G, and I might be sneaking a 1.4 in there or it might just be me wobbling mid corner.

For comparison, see a Ferrari 458 on Pirelli P Zeroes manage only 1.0G. http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-rev...8-italia-vs-lamborghini-gallardo-superleggera

Honestly, anything over 1.0G probably requires downforce.

I don't want to use the A word, but the GTA demo has far, far, far too much grip. Unbelievable amounts of grip. Grip that could not possibly exist in the real world. I'm not sure Comfort Hards would be enough to get the grip levels down to where they need to be for most normal road cars.

 

[poumpoum]

I've just noticed something very disturbing.

There is a G-meter underneath the rev counter/speedo on the hud. It has white marks that are presumably 1.0 and 2.0 on each side, and grey marks halfway in between for 0.5 and 1.5.

The Leaf is on Comfort Medium tyres. The second hardest grade available, if we assume the same tyre range as GT5.

The Leaf pulls 0.9 to 1.0 G. Easily. Try it and see.

For reference, on a skid pad a Leaf needs what is basically a slick race tyre to pull those sorts of numbers. http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...leaf-getting-an-ev-to-grip-like-a-911-feature

The 370Z road version has Sports Hards. It's sort of hard to read while trying to go fast around a corner, but I'm getting at least 1.2-1.3G, and I might be sneaking a 1.4 in there or it might just be me wobbling mid corner.

For comparison, see a Ferrari 458 on Pirelli P Zeroes manage only 1.0G. http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-rev...8-italia-vs-lamborghini-gallardo-superleggera

Honestly, anything over 1.0G probably requires downforce.

I don't want to use the A word, but the GTA demo has far, far, far too much grip. Unbelievable amounts of grip. Grip that could not possibly exist in the real world. I'm not sure Comfort Hards would be enough to get the grip levels down to where they need to be for most normal road cars.

Do you know if the G-meter uses gravity ? If it's a yes, it could explain for the leaf because of the body roll...

 

[Imari]

Do you know if the G-meter uses gravity ? If it's a yes, it could explain for the leaf because of the body roll...

What do you mean, uses gravity?

It's not influenced by gravity, if that's what you mean. A G-meter works in a perfectly horizontal plane, unless they screwed up the programming big time.

And frankly, it'd be much easier to make a G-meter that was independent of body angle than one that was dependent on body angle, so I don't see how that mistake could even be made.

 

[atledreier]

My GT86 on nice warm Toyo R888 mediums (sport hard equivalent) can sustain 1,15-1.2G and noise bring it to 1,4 easily.

 

[Imari]

My GT86 on nice warm Toyo R888 mediums (sport hard equivalent) can sustain 1,15-1.2G and noise bring it to 1,4 easily.

Proof please.

 

[atledreier]

I'll pull up the log from my last trackday when I get home.

Edit: Had a log on my phone.

 

[TCSTigersClaw]

I am testing the 370Z academy version (not the tuned one) and I find the bodyroll and transfer weight unrealistic..From the outside camera or replay camera ,during some slaloms,accelerations and brakings I find that the 370 has the bodyroll of a Suzuki Liana....Is it just me ? really test it

 

[poumpoum]

It's not influenced by gravity, if that's what you mean. A G-meter works in a perfectly horizontal plane, unless they screwed up the programming big time.

It depends on what do you want to measure ! If you want to measure what the driver really feels, then you need to add the "body roll gravity"...

I don't know if you can compare gt6 measures to the results from http://www.caranddriver.com/ because they measured in doing circles with the car, so you need to use the throttle the whole time. When you're driving in GT6, you break strong and then you turn and do the weight transfer => At this moment you can have more G-force than when you are doing circles.

(Sorry for my english, I hope it 's understandable )

 

[JTSnooks]

I am testing the 370Z academy version (not the tuned one) and I find the bodyroll and transfer weight unrealistic..From the outside camera or replay camera ,during some slaloms,accelerations and brakings I find that the 370 has the bodyroll of a Suzuki Liana....Is it just me ? really test it

*disclaimer*I haven't played the demo yet*disclaimer*

Just want to point out that most road-going cars (even "sporty" ones) do tend to have quite a bit of body roll, especially when compared to a true track car. The 370Z in real life, while stiffer than your average Camry or Cruze, actually rolls quite a bit and won't corner anywhere near "flat". If it did, nobody would buy it because it would be so incredibly uncomfortable over anything but the smoothest pavement.

 

[TCSTigersClaw]

*disclaimer*I haven't played the demo yet*disclaimer*

Just want to point out that most road-going cars (even "sporty" ones) do tend to have quite a bit of body roll, especially when compared to a true track car. The 370Z in real life, while stiffer than your average Camry or Cruze, actually rolls quite a bit and won't corner anywhere near "flat". If it did, nobody would buy it because it would be so incredibly uncomfortable over anything but the smoothest pavement.

Well I agree with you ,but even my road going Seat Ibiza has not so much bodyroll.I havent driven a real 370 but I have a 350,I remember the one thing that I was happy with that car is the minimum weight transfer that it had during a long turn, it didnt even scared me at high speeds.In the game the 370 rolls like crazy..

 

[atledreier]

If the tires can sustain 1,4G and above it will roll alot more than your 350 on average road tires in average road conditions.

 

[poumpoum]

*disclaimer*I haven't played the demo yet*disclaimer*

Just want to point out that most road-going cars (even "sporty" ones) do tend to have quite a bit of body roll, especially when compared to a true track car. The 370Z in real life, while stiffer than your average Camry or Cruze, actually rolls quite a bit and won't corner anywhere near "flat". If it did, nobody would buy it because it would be so incredibly uncomfortable over anything but the smoothest pavement.

👍👍

This is a video that compares real life vs Enthusia Professionnal Racing. Every road car, even the "sport" one have a lot of body roll(specially if you use semi slick tyres with stock suspensions), only race cars with really low gravity center haven't got a lot of body roll.

 

[Raggi Boy]

The bodyroll of the leaf in the demo reminded me of throttling a crappy citroen c1 hire car round country lanes in Italy haha. I love these new physics, I can tell GT6 is going to be fun already! I think there is a world of difference and feels pretty accurate now, I was worried from what I was hearing from people that it would be ridiculous like GTA IV, but the transition from the loose leaf, to the tightness of the tuned 370z, it just feels right

 

[Imari]

It depends on what do you want to measure ! If you want to measure what the driver really feels, then you need to add the "body roll gravity"...

I don't know if you can compare gt6 measures to the results from http://www.caranddriver.com/ because they measured in doing circles with the car, so you need to use the throttle the whole time. When you're driving in GT6, you break strong and then you turn and do the weight transfer => At this moment you can have more G-force than when you are doing circles.

(Sorry for my english, I hope it 's understandable )

This is not about measuring what the driver feels. It's about measuring the force on the tyres, which is entirely lateral.

You're right about turn in forces. Read the G-meter in the middle of the corner when the car is steady state (or nearly so).

There's that big looping corner on Grand Valley that you have time to get a decent reading on, and there's plenty of double apex corners that are long enough on Autumn Ring for the Leaf.

I'll pull up the log from my last trackday when I get home.

Edit: Had a log on my phone.

Nice try. You spike up to 1.1 as you wobble through the corners, with your phone accelerometer. How accurate do you think that thing is? You think it was ever calibrated?

You're getting maybe somewhere between 1.0 and 1.1 if you're going smoothly around a skid pan, possibly less. Not 1.2 and definitely not 1.4.

Which sort of furthers the point. You're in a sports car on some of the fastest road legal tyres you can buy. You're pulling numbers a tiny bit above a stock Nissan Leaf, on the second worst set of tyres in the game.

What Comfort Medium equates to is a reasonable discussion, but they sure aren't 100 treadwear semi-slicks.

 

[atledreier]

All valid points. I was referring to the Z doing 1.2G in a track setting, which didn't seem so far off to me. The Leaf is obviously stupidly overgrippy.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I've just noticed something very disturbing.

There is a G-meter underneath the rev counter/speedo on the hud. It has white marks that are presumably 1.0 and 2.0 on each side, and grey marks halfway in between for 0.5 and 1.5.

The Leaf is on Comfort Medium tyres. The second hardest grade available, if we assume the same tyre range as GT5.

The Leaf pulls 0.9 to 1.0 G. Easily. Try it and see.

For reference, on a skid pad a Leaf needs what is basically a slick race tyre to pull those sorts of numbers. http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...leaf-getting-an-ev-to-grip-like-a-911-feature

The 370Z road version has Sports Hards. It's sort of hard to read while trying to go fast around a corner, but I'm getting at least 1.2-1.3G, and I might be sneaking a 1.4 in there or it might just be me wobbling mid corner.

For comparison, see a Ferrari 458 on Pirelli P Zeroes manage only 1.0G. http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-rev...8-italia-vs-lamborghini-gallardo-superleggera

Honestly, anything over 1.0G probably requires downforce.

I don't want to use the A word, but the GTA demo has far, far, far too much grip. Unbelievable amounts of grip. Grip that could not possibly exist in the real world. I'm not sure Comfort Hards would be enough to get the grip levels down to where they need to be for most normal road cars.

In GT5, most stock FF cars can pull high peak G around some corners - close to 1.0 ( not sustained ) on comfort medium, before losing grip. The G meter on GT that we usually see and measure are peak right ? If it's averaged or try to have sustained G, I think it would be lower.

Real life skid pad G's are measured based on average of sustained G's, I think peak G's would be a bit higher.

I am not saying I am right, just what I know, maybe Scaff can explain it better or clarify these G measurements.

For me, comfort medium equates to high performance summer tires in real life, while comfort soft equates to hard/medium compound semi slick like falken azenis, sports hard is somewhere between soft compound semi slick and hard slick tires.

 

[Imari]

All valid points. I was referring to the Z doing 1.2G in a track setting, which didn't seem so far off to me. The Leaf is obviously stupidly overgrippy.

My apologies then, yeah, it could be done.

For me, comfort medium equates to high performance summer tires in real life, while comfort soft equates to hard/medium compound semi slick like falken azenis, sports hard is somewhere between soft compound semi slick and hard slick tires.

Which would make Sports Mediums track day slicks, Sports Soft full race slicks, and Race tyres somewhere between F1 tyres and complete fantasy?

In which case, they don't need the Race category of tyres, and they need another category below Comfort.

 

[Samus]

For me, comfort medium equates to high performance summer tires in real life, while comfort soft equates to hard/medium compound semi slick like falken azenis, sports hard is somewhere between soft compound semi slick and hard slick tires.

That isn't what the descriptions in GT5 say.

 

[Scaff]

I've just noticed something very disturbing.

There is a G-meter underneath the rev counter/speedo on the hud. It has white marks that are presumably 1.0 and 2.0 on each side, and grey marks halfway in between for 0.5 and 1.5.

The Leaf is on Comfort Medium tyres. The second hardest grade available, if we assume the same tyre range as GT5.

The Leaf pulls 0.9 to 1.0 G. Easily. Try it and see.

For reference, on a skid pad a Leaf needs what is basically a slick race tyre to pull those sorts of numbers. http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...leaf-getting-an-ev-to-grip-like-a-911-feature

The 370Z road version has Sports Hards. It's sort of hard to read while trying to go fast around a corner, but I'm getting at least 1.2-1.3G, and I might be sneaking a 1.4 in there or it might just be me wobbling mid corner.

For comparison, see a Ferrari 458 on Pirelli P Zeroes manage only 1.0G. http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-rev...8-italia-vs-lamborghini-gallardo-superleggera

Honestly, anything over 1.0G probably requires downforce.

I don't want to use the A word, but the GTA demo has far, far, far too much grip. Unbelievable amounts of grip. Grip that could not possibly exist in the real world. I'm not sure Comfort Hards would be enough to get the grip levels down to where they need to be for most normal road cars.

Those figures are not that unbelievable if they are peak grip rather than sustained grip (which is what a skid pan is about), my Alfa Guiletta can peak at around 1g on road tyres, however sustained would be around the .85 level for it.

And anything over 1g doesn't requite downforce unless again your looking at sustained rather than peak, and on a circuit you would certainly be looking at peak.

(BTW that been measured using the cars g-meter, two difference phones (running torque) and a V-box, all of which are almost identical in terms of accuracy)

Well I agree with you ,but even my road going Seat Ibiza has not so much bodyroll.I havent driven a real 370 but I have a 350,I remember the one thing that I was happy with that car is the minimum weight transfer that it had during a long turn, it didnt even scared me at high speeds.In the game the 370 rolls like crazy..

Have you driven it on the track? What seems like a nice stable road car will display far, far more roll and heave that most people expect once you actually push them to the limit on a track, the roll on the 370Z is not odd looking at all in that regard.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Which would make Sports Mediums track day slicks, Sports Soft full race slicks, and Race tyres somewhere between F1 tyres and complete fantasy?

In which case, they don't need the Race category of tyres, and they need another category below Comfort.

Race Medium would be the highest - equal to soft or super soft racing slick. Comfort hard would be fine as it is - equal to factory fitted tires.

This is the reason why I always use comfort medium or soft on most street cars up to 600PP, if I wanted street legal tire simulated.

By the way, Leaf should have comfort hard not medium. I would use comfort hard on all cars below 410 PP.

That isn't what the descriptions in GT5 say.

Well, does racing soft description in GT5 seems logical compared to how it grips when driven in game ? I won't consider the in game description accurate at all, ABS description is another example - clearly not what it says.

 

[atledreier]

Race Soft would be a ultrasoft qualifying tire and should last a lap or two. The main problem is tire wear, more so than ultimate grip.

 

[Scaff]

Race Medium would be the highest - equal to soft or super soft racing slick. Comfort hard would be fine as it is - equal to factory fitted tires.

This is the reason why I always use comfort medium or soft on most street cars up to 600PP, if I wanted street legal tire simulated.

By the way, Leaf should have comfort hard not medium. I would use comfort hard on all cars below 410 PP.



Well, does racing soft description in GT5 seems logical compared to how it grips when driven in game ? I won't consider the in game description accurate at all, ABS description is another example - clearly not what it says.

I disagree totally in this regard.

The grip levels in GT5, in general terms, have never been the issue. The issue is how the grip transitions into slip that has always been the issue.

I've never understood why people go on about how tyres in GT have too much grip for the grade they are, I suspect its mainly from those members who have not driven on track to a great degree.

A peak of 0.9 - 1.0 for a road tyre on a track surface (which in itself will have more grip than a public road because it uses a finer grade of stone in the tarmac surface and is often well rubbered) is not odd at all. Peaks of 1.3 to 1.4 for dedicated track tyres (semi legal and non road) would sit around the right area and 1.5 - 3 is more than possible for full slicks (drag slicks and qualifying tyres from the days of Group C were even more insane - but often only lasted a lap).

One of the issues raised by a lot of professional drivers in regard to sim is that tyres don't have enough grip (this was true of FM4 and many GT players complained that had too much grip).

So grip levels have never been an issue for me in GT, its always been the way in which the grip breaks away (which has never in the past been progressive enough), the lack of speed loss from tyre scrub and the snap oversteer (again a factor in the lack of progression).

In all of these areas GT6 (from what we see in the demo) has moved things on a lot and certainly in the right direction.

 

[Imari]

...the lack of speed loss from tyre scrub and the snap oversteer (again a factor in the lack of progression).

In all of these areas GT6 (from what we see in the demo) has moved things on a lot and certainly in the right direction.

I've just watched the (current) top time on the Academy leaderboard to try and get tips to make myself faster.

The guy is intentionally understeering into every corner. Every corner.

Lack of speed loss from tyre scrub?

 

[Scaff]

I've just watched the (current) top time on the Academy leaderboard to try and get tips to make myself faster.

The guy is intentionally understeering into every corner. Every corner.

Lack of speed loss from tyre scrub?

I was refering to tyre scrub from oversteer and should have made that cleaner (as that was always the main issue in GT5).

Personally I wouldn't put much store in a fastest time set today, but would be interested in knowing who the drievr is so I can take a look myself.

Generally speaking onset understeer is not going to scrub off huge speeds (less generally than oversteer in a RWD car) as long as its corrected with a mild lift or reduction of steering angle (neither of which did anything in GT5). Even if its not 100% correct in this build (and I doubt it ever will be on any sim) its a massive step in the right direction in comparison to the almost unrecoverable understeer in GT5, which cause almost zero speed loss but simple made steering impossible.